These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
12Next page
 

Constant missile acceleration - fixes flight time issues
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2015-01-23 14:35:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Perhaps there could be a mechanic for long range missiles in which they constantly accelerate toward their target and become faster the more time they spend in flight. This would help prevent the long waits for very long range missiles to arrive, without removing the wait time on mid-range shots. For example, a cruise missile might take 5 seconds to travel the first 50km, and another 5 seconds to travel the next 100km.

Furthermore, spending more time in flight could cause long range missiles to gain some damage, which helps to make up for the wait while also giving rise to a new style of gameplay: intentionally waiting longer for shots to hit in order to take advantage of improved damage. Could give rise to missile sniper tactics involving trying to hold the targets in place while shooting them down from very far away. It could also make flight time bonuses more viable, so that missile velocity isn't the only way to go.

edit: I don't support the second part anymore.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#2 - 2015-01-23 14:50:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Bronson Hughes
I kind of like the constant acceleration idea. It keeps the delay for missiles without making it unbearable for heavies and up.

As an alternative, CCP could pull a Mordu on all missiles: increase their velocity and decrease their flight time to match current ranges. This is a more straightforward change, but it doesn't help nearly as much at longer ranges.

As for missiles gaining damage over range...eh, not a fan. It doesn't make sense from a lore standpoint (the damage is done by exploding warheads, not the velocity of the missiles), and it doesn't fit with current gameplay mechanics that have longer range weapons trending towards lower damage. But I do like your thinking that long range missiles need some kind of...oomph.

EDIT: And by "long range", I'm really talking 100+km so mainly cruise missiles and citadel cruise missiles.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#3 - 2015-01-23 15:31:51 UTC
If you like thus idea, you should check out the HM thread that I've been posting in. It has a similar idea, compounding faster max velocity and a damage from velocity factor.
As for not fitting into the lore, what else would kinetic damage be? Smile
I do agree that warheads do damage in the other 3 cases though, but this could be justified in the lore by a convenient shift from standoff warheads to impact warheads that would apply based on agility or something. Just a thought whule my prof glares at me..
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4 - 2015-01-23 15:35:23 UTC
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:
If you like thus idea, you should check out the HM thread that I've been posting in. It has a similar idea, compounding faster max velocity and a damage from velocity factor.
As for not fitting into the lore, what else would kinetic damage be? Smile
I do agree that warheads do damage in the other 3 cases though, but this could be justified in the lore by a convenient shift from standoff warheads to impact warheads that would apply based on agility or something. Just a thought whule my prof glares at me..


If the warhead scored a direct hit for kinetic (as opposed to stuff like expanding rods throwing kinetic pieces at object around), it would have to have a different calculation of damage as no matter how small or fast you are, the impact would still wreck your ship.

You could add a "wrecking shot like" mechanic to simulate potential direct hit having a greater effect than proximity detonation but that is an entire different can of worms.
Gawain Edmond
Khanid Bureau of Industry
#5 - 2015-01-23 15:57:23 UTC
or it could let missile based battleships totally wipe the floor with frigates even at close range since the missile would just keep going untill it caught upto the frigate and then explode it...

and that's just the first problem after looking at it for 10 seconds so i'll just go wit hthis being a bad poorly thought out idea with no regard to balance and a total lack of understanding of how the game works but other than that it's really good
Mornak
Exotic Dancers Union
Hatakani Trade Winds Combine
#6 - 2015-01-23 15:58:55 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Perhaps there could be a mechanic for long range missiles in which they constantly accelerate toward their target and become faster the more time they spend in flight. This would help prevent the long waits for very long range missiles to arrive, without removing the wait time on mid-range shots. For example, a cruise missile might take 5 seconds to travel the first 50km, and another 5 seconds to travel the next 100km.

Furthermore, spending more time in flight could cause long range missiles to gain some damage, which helps to make up for the wait while also giving rise to a new style of gameplay: intentionally waiting longer for shots to hit in order to take advantage of improved damage. Could give rise to missile sniper tactics involving trying to hold the targets in place while shooting them down from very far away. It could also make flight time bonuses more viable, so that missile velocity isn't the only way to go.


if they gain incredible speed over time, wouldnt that mean that they have a chance of missing/overshooting the target if the target moves? resulting in something similar to trackingspeed for missiles?

this are two rather big buffs for longrange missiles, less flighttime and on top of that more damage. without any downside it might get a bit hard to balance.
Tusker Crazinski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2015-01-23 16:13:34 UTC
+1

In addition missiles should carry all velocity from the shooter so flying your damn ship has an effect on their effectiveness. right now the execution demands on the pilot for missile boats begin and end with F1.
Tusker Crazinski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2015-01-23 16:16:13 UTC
Mornak wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Perhaps there could be a mechanic for long range missiles in which they constantly accelerate toward their target and become faster the more time they spend in flight. This would help prevent the long waits for very long range missiles to arrive, without removing the wait time on mid-range shots. For example, a cruise missile might take 5 seconds to travel the first 50km, and another 5 seconds to travel the next 100km.

Furthermore, spending more time in flight could cause long range missiles to gain some damage, which helps to make up for the wait while also giving rise to a new style of gameplay: intentionally waiting longer for shots to hit in order to take advantage of improved damage. Could give rise to missile sniper tactics involving trying to hold the targets in place while shooting them down from very far away. It could also make flight time bonuses more viable, so that missile velocity isn't the only way to go.


if they gain incredible speed over time, wouldnt that mean that they have a chance of missing/overshooting the target if the target moves? resulting in something similar to trackingspeed for missiles?

this are two rather big buffs for longrange missiles, less flighttime and on top of that more damage. without any downside it might get a bit hard to balance.


as long as you ship accelerates harder than the missiles you could avoid them as long as you're on your game. EVE ships have speed limits, these missiles have Dv budgets essentially.

another way to mitigate damage when flying slower ships would be to, fly prograde with the missiles velocity vector. ( reduce relative velocity.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#9 - 2015-01-23 16:19:27 UTC
Tusker Crazinski wrote:
+1

In addition missiles should carry all velocity from the shooter so flying your damn ship has an effect on their effectiveness. right now the execution demands on the pilot for missile boats begin and end with F1.



Guided fire and forget weapons are easyer to use than the ones without guidance systems. Pretty sure it's working as intended...
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#10 - 2015-01-23 16:45:14 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Perhaps there could be a mechanic for long range missiles in which they constantly accelerate toward their target and become faster the more time they spend in flight. This would help prevent the long waits for very long range missiles to arrive, without removing the wait time on mid-range shots. For example, a cruise missile might take 5 seconds to travel the first 50km, and another 5 seconds to travel the next 100km.

Furthermore, spending more time in flight could cause long range missiles to gain some damage, which helps to make up for the wait while also giving rise to a new style of gameplay: intentionally waiting longer for shots to hit in order to take advantage of improved damage. Could give rise to missile sniper tactics involving trying to hold the targets in place while shooting them down from very far away. It could also make flight time bonuses more viable, so that missile velocity isn't the only way to go.


Reaver, as much as I like the sentiment, it would breake EVE.

You have to remember that EVE is a relationale database and not a simulator. The client makes a visual representation of what is going on and where in a semi-fluid 3-dimensional grid.

If missiles would accelerate at those rate, the distance checks would go haywire and they will remove missiles for good.

The only thing that is messed up is that missiles don't apply the damage they could do for reasons that escape me.

On paper and in fitting tools missiles can already do enough damage. That theoretical maximum damage is reduced by the amount of resistances on shields / armor / hull and for mocking me a little more then seven years, the target speed.

Someone will probably say that missiles always hit - Sad said the Sacrilege to the rail-deimos and died..

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Tusker Crazinski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2015-01-23 18:21:16 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Perhaps there could be a mechanic for long range missiles in which they constantly accelerate toward their target and become faster the more time they spend in flight. This would help prevent the long waits for very long range missiles to arrive, without removing the wait time on mid-range shots. For example, a cruise missile might take 5 seconds to travel the first 50km, and another 5 seconds to travel the next 100km.

Furthermore, spending more time in flight could cause long range missiles to gain some damage, which helps to make up for the wait while also giving rise to a new style of gameplay: intentionally waiting longer for shots to hit in order to take advantage of improved damage. Could give rise to missile sniper tactics involving trying to hold the targets in place while shooting them down from very far away. It could also make flight time bonuses more viable, so that missile velocity isn't the only way to go.


Reaver, as much as I like the sentiment, it would breake EVE.

You have to remember that EVE is a relationale database and not a simulator. The client makes a visual representation of what is going on and where in a semi-fluid 3-dimensional grid.

If missiles would accelerate at those rate, the distance checks would go haywire and they will remove missiles for good.

The only thing that is messed up is that missiles don't apply the damage they could do for reasons that escape me.

On paper and in fitting tools missiles can already do enough damage. That theoretical maximum damage is reduced by the amount of resistances on shields / armor / hull and for mocking me a little more then seven years, the target speed.

Someone will probably say that missiles always hit - Sad said the Sacrilege to the rail-deimos and died..


yeah a weapon system that always hit is going to take penalties elsewhere.

perhaps making missiles need some form of range control like every other weapon system would be a better way to balance them out than to tweak their application, damage and projection values.
Mornak
Exotic Dancers Union
Hatakani Trade Winds Combine
#12 - 2015-01-23 18:22:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Mornak
Tusker Crazinski wrote:
Mornak wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Perhaps there could be a mechanic for long range missiles in which they constantly accelerate toward their target and become faster the more time they spend in flight. This would help prevent the long waits for very long range missiles to arrive, without removing the wait time on mid-range shots. For example, a cruise missile might take 5 seconds to travel the first 50km, and another 5 seconds to travel the next 100km.

Furthermore, spending more time in flight could cause long range missiles to gain some damage, which helps to make up for the wait while also giving rise to a new style of gameplay: intentionally waiting longer for shots to hit in order to take advantage of improved damage. Could give rise to missile sniper tactics involving trying to hold the targets in place while shooting them down from very far away. It could also make flight time bonuses more viable, so that missile velocity isn't the only way to go.


if they gain incredible speed over time, wouldnt that mean that they have a chance of missing/overshooting the target if the target moves? resulting in something similar to trackingspeed for missiles?

this are two rather big buffs for longrange missiles, less flighttime and on top of that more damage. without any downside it might get a bit hard to balance.


as long as you ship accelerates harder than the missiles you could avoid them as long as you're on your game. EVE ships have speed limits, these missiles have Dv budgets essentially.

another way to mitigate damage when flying slower ships would be to, fly prograde with the missiles velocity vector. ( reduce relative velocity.


they are cruiser/bc+ size weapons. faction HM's do 4300 m/sec now without any boni ( https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Caldari_Navy_Mjolnir_Heavy_Missile ). if you increase this speed so that it really does make a difference, let's assume you double that max speed to 8k6 m/s, no cruiser+ size ship will be able to out-fly them, unless you start close to the missiles maximum range. but flying out of range is also possible against turret boats, so imho this downside is not really a special downside for missiles.

i could not find info on the acceleration, but it's much bigger than any cruiser iirc. so out-accelerating isn't an option unless you cripple the missiles base acceleration speed in the first place (please correct me if i'm wrong).

if you are fighting a fast ship, the horrible damage application of those missiles will be the issue (we're talking 81 m/sec explosion velocity on those faction mjölnirs without boni). making missiles faster doesn't change that...
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2015-01-23 18:31:05 UTC
Tusker Crazinski wrote:

yeah a weapon system that always hit is going to take penalties elsewhere.

perhaps making missiles need some form of range control like every other weapon system would be a better way to balance them out than to tweak their application, damage and projection values.

There's really no way to balance insta hitting unavoidable missiles, especially on the cruise level, other than nerfing them so hard they are totally useless.

Even if they lost a third of their range and a third of their DPS and a chunk of their damage application, It would still result in groups of ravens instablapping anything larger than an interceptor at well over 100KM.

And if they closed in, the ravens could always swap to conventional missiles and return to the heavy dps and heavy application they can do at moderate to close range already.
Tusker Crazinski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2015-01-23 18:31:49 UTC
Mornak wrote:
Tusker Crazinski wrote:
Mornak wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Perhaps there could be a mechanic for long range missiles in which they constantly accelerate toward their target and become faster the more time they spend in flight. This would help prevent the long waits for very long range missiles to arrive, without removing the wait time on mid-range shots. For example, a cruise missile might take 5 seconds to travel the first 50km, and another 5 seconds to travel the next 100km.

Furthermore, spending more time in flight could cause long range missiles to gain some damage, which helps to make up for the wait while also giving rise to a new style of gameplay: intentionally waiting longer for shots to hit in order to take advantage of improved damage. Could give rise to missile sniper tactics involving trying to hold the targets in place while shooting them down from very far away. It could also make flight time bonuses more viable, so that missile velocity isn't the only way to go.


if they gain incredible speed over time, wouldnt that mean that they have a chance of missing/overshooting the target if the target moves? resulting in something similar to trackingspeed for missiles?

this are two rather big buffs for longrange missiles, less flighttime and on top of that more damage. without any downside it might get a bit hard to balance.


as long as you ship accelerates harder than the missiles you could avoid them as long as you're on your game. EVE ships have speed limits, these missiles have Dv budgets essentially.

another way to mitigate damage when flying slower ships would be to, fly prograde with the missiles velocity vector. ( reduce relative velocity.


they are cruiser/bc+ size weapons. faction HM's do 4300 m/sec now without any boni ( https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Caldari_Navy_Mjolnir_Heavy_Missile ). if you increase this speed so that it really does make a difference, let's assume you double that max speed to 8k6 m/s, no cruiser+ size ship will be able to out-fly them, unless you start close to the missiles maximum range. but flying out of range is also possible against turret boats, so imho this downside is not really a special downside for missiles.

i could not find info on the acceleration, but it's much bigger than any cruiser iirc. so out-accelerating isn't an option unless you cripple the missiles base acceleration speed in the first place (please correct me if i'm wrong).

if you are fighting a fast ship, the horrible damage application of those missiles will be the issue (we're talking 81 m/sec explosion velocity on those faction mjölnirs without boni). making missiles faster doesn't change that...


that is not how acceleration works, the OP suggest missiles have acceleration values instead of a fixed velocity.

the way missiles work in EVE is they are on space rail going their fixed speed till they hit target, if the missile accelerates at 50m/s^2 and youre lets say vaga can crack 300m/s^2 with an overheated MWD, you will always out accelerate the missile. EVE ships however have speed limits the proposed missiles don't just burn time at (X)m/s^2
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#15 - 2015-01-23 18:34:07 UTC
Tusker Crazinski wrote:
elitatwo wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Perhaps there could be a mechanic for long range missiles in which they constantly accelerate toward their target and become faster the more time they spend in flight. This would help prevent the long waits for very long range missiles to arrive, without removing the wait time on mid-range shots. For example, a cruise missile might take 5 seconds to travel the first 50km, and another 5 seconds to travel the next 100km.

Furthermore, spending more time in flight could cause long range missiles to gain some damage, which helps to make up for the wait while also giving rise to a new style of gameplay: intentionally waiting longer for shots to hit in order to take advantage of improved damage. Could give rise to missile sniper tactics involving trying to hold the targets in place while shooting them down from very far away. It could also make flight time bonuses more viable, so that missile velocity isn't the only way to go.


Reaver, as much as I like the sentiment, it would breake EVE.

You have to remember that EVE is a relationale database and not a simulator. The client makes a visual representation of what is going on and where in a semi-fluid 3-dimensional grid.

If missiles would accelerate at those rate, the distance checks would go haywire and they will remove missiles for good.

The only thing that is messed up is that missiles don't apply the damage they could do for reasons that escape me.

On paper and in fitting tools missiles can already do enough damage. That theoretical maximum damage is reduced by the amount of resistances on shields / armor / hull and for mocking me a little more then seven years, the target speed.

Someone will probably say that missiles always hit - Sad said the Sacrilege to the rail-deimos and died..


yeah a weapon system that always hit is going to take penalties elsewhere.

perhaps making missiles need some form of range control like every other weapon system would be a better way to balance them out than to tweak their application, damage and projection values.


So different payload in a same size missile to allow more or less fuel?
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#16 - 2015-01-23 18:36:44 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
...
Even if they lost a third of their range and a third of their DPS and a chunk of their damage application, It would still result in groups of ravens instablapping anything larger than an interceptor at well over 100KM.


There is no interceptor in EVE that my Raven cannot shoot down.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Shivanthar
#17 - 2015-01-23 19:00:44 UTC
From one of my old threads:

"...
Increasing max cruise missile flight speed to much more than current and greatly slowing down acceleration, while increasing explosion velocity and decreasing explosion radius proportionally as missiles go faster and farther. This way, at max range, target you hit would receive more damage than same target you hit close.
..."

You were also there Reaver Blink

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#18 - 2015-01-23 19:05:50 UTC
Shivanthar wrote:
From one of my old threads:

"...
Increasing max cruise missile flight speed to much more than current and greatly slowing down acceleration, while increasing explosion velocity and decreasing explosion radius proportionally as missiles go faster and farther. This way, at max range, target you hit would receive more damage than same target you hit close.
..."

You were also there Reaver Blink


Except that does not make any sense unless the warhead is somehow modified during flight.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2015-01-23 19:54:18 UTC
Talking about realism with a system where a ship can out fly an explosion and a ship smaller than the blast radius magically taking less damage......fools errand.

Balance beats reality all day long
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2015-01-23 20:02:52 UTC
If missile velocity was partly taken from ship velocity, that couold help explain why Stealth Bombers are able to shoot out torpedoes so far. Maybe they have to work for it. Only MWD SB can shoot torpedoes out to 55km.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
12Next page