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POS Scanning module

Author
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2015-01-17 05:51:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
Wrong. People just won't do it unless they know fairly sure that it's worth the time. This way people have a way of knowing that they aren't wasting their time so they are more likely to hit the tower.

More player interaction = good mechanics.


What a convenient blanket reason for all sorts of things. Like the agressing side getting to cherry pick their fights and only ever have to wardec corps they know have extremely valuable towers up. That they were too lazy to infiltrate with spies. Because they wandered by and scanned them without the POS owner being able to prevent them.

Let's see if I can manage to find a bad idea that can be psuedo justified by the same excuse.

I propose you should be able to go into stations and kick people out of them, also instantly forcing a duel on the undock. After all, people in stations are not interacting with others in space, and as everyone knows...

More player interaction = good mechanics.
Seraph IX Basarab
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#22 - 2015-01-17 06:02:41 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
Wrong. People just won't do it unless they know fairly sure that it's worth the time. This way people have a way of knowing that they aren't wasting their time so they are more likely to hit the tower.

More player interaction = good mechanics.


What a convenient blanket reason for all sorts of things. Like the agressing side getting to cherry pick their fights and only ever have to wardec corps they know have extremely valuable towers up. That they were too lazy to infiltrate with spies. Because they wandered by and scanned them without the POS owner being able to prevent them.

Let's see if I can manage to find a bad idea that can be psuedo justified by the same excuse.

I propose you should be able to go into stations and kick people out of them, also instantly forcing a duel on the undock. After all, people in stations are not interacting with others in space, and as everyone knows...

More player interaction = good mechanics.


For you to find the tower, hack it and survive is a little bit different than your strawman idea.
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2015-01-17 06:09:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:


For you to find the tower, hack it and survive is a little bit different than your strawman idea.



Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
I see hacking attempts go as such:

Buzzards, Anathemas, Cheetahs, Imicusi(SP?) are not targeted by the pos no matter how it is set. You attempt to hack the pos. If you fail, the pos blaps you either instantly or in short order (maybe giving you a chance or two to get away with each successive failure giving the hacker less time to get away.) I'd say that only these ships (perhaps Astero/Stratios as well as recons) can fit the modules to scan poses.


Right, because given a threat only on failure, immunity to being attacked by the tower while hacking it, and even if you fail, the opportunity to warp off before it attacks you, there just soooooo much threat.

Hell, There's even a chance to lose a 30 mil isk frigate if say I hack, fail, and then sit there for a excessive period of time while the tower locks me and agresses me with whatever mods it may have. And if I forgot to fit WCS, and if the tower can actually hit me with the weapons it has, and it fit a point, and I can't just MWD away. Or cloak before it finishes locking me.

So scary, I'm just shaking in my metaphorical boots.

Then again, people also manage to lose pods in lowsec after fights, so I assume there will be a few people stupid enough to die to towers, but anyone with half a brain could game the system for near total immunity.

And let's not pretend that finding POS's is difficult. It's not like they can run away when they see you on d-scan.
Seraph IX Basarab
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#24 - 2015-01-17 20:50:08 UTC
Then have it so you can only hack once in X amount of time. Or there's a 30 second window for you to hack before you are targeted and each failure lowers the amount of time you have. There's plenty of ways to balance it but the bottom line is letting people be able to scan what's inside some of the pos hangers/modules will provide more content and more recon play.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#25 - 2015-01-18 04:12:22 UTC
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
Then have it so you can only hack once in X amount of time. Or there's a 30 second window for you to hack before you are targeted and each failure lowers the amount of time you have. There's plenty of ways to balance it but the bottom line is letting people be able to scan what's inside some of the pos hangers/modules will provide more content and more recon play.


No
Why?
No scanner
No hacking POS
Both really bad ideas.

If you want the moon a POS occupies, or you want to know what is in it file the war dec and as they say have a go at it.
Not knowing what you will get if anything is all part of the "risks" you take when you WD a corp because of their POS. SInce this scanner by your own admission removes that "risk" it gets a no way from me and many others.
Seraph IX Basarab
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#26 - 2015-01-18 04:40:24 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
Then have it so you can only hack once in X amount of time. Or there's a 30 second window for you to hack before you are targeted and each failure lowers the amount of time you have. There's plenty of ways to balance it but the bottom line is letting people be able to scan what's inside some of the pos hangers/modules will provide more content and more recon play.


No
Why?
No scanner
No hacking POS
Both really bad ideas.

If you want the moon a POS occupies, or you want to know what is in it file the war dec and as they say have a go at it.
Not knowing what you will get if anything is all part of the "risks" you take when you WD a corp because of their POS. SInce this scanner by your own admission removes that "risk" it gets a no way from me and many others.



The risk is actually fighting and engaging it.
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2015-01-18 04:45:37 UTC
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
Donnachadh wrote:
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
Then have it so you can only hack once in X amount of time. Or there's a 30 second window for you to hack before you are targeted and each failure lowers the amount of time you have. There's plenty of ways to balance it but the bottom line is letting people be able to scan what's inside some of the pos hangers/modules will provide more content and more recon play.


No
Why?
No scanner
No hacking POS
Both really bad ideas.

If you want the moon a POS occupies, or you want to know what is in it file the war dec and as they say have a go at it.
Not knowing what you will get if anything is all part of the "risks" you take when you WD a corp because of their POS. SInce this scanner by your own admission removes that "risk" it gets a no way from me and many others.

The risk is actually fighting and engaging it.


Risk on your own terms, at a time of your own choosing, after gathering as much intel as you choose to before pouncing, with as many friends as you choose to bring along.

How amazingly risky. In the same way that suicide ganking is "risky" because some random person flying by in a BB might jam you out before you kill a target.

Since you apparently have no plans on including any sort of countermeasures for a person to prevent you from scanning their tower other than relying on the scanners gross incompetence and stupidity, I'm going to have to change my opinion from "moderate support with caveats" to "No to another self pandering thread of entitlement"
Seraph IX Basarab
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#28 - 2015-01-18 05:59:47 UTC
You could make the same argument about having timers on your pos. "Risk on your own terms, at the time of your choosing...etc"
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2015-01-18 06:05:06 UTC
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
You could make the same argument about having timers on your pos. "Risk on your own terms, at the time of your choosing...etc"


You mean except for the part where the person attacking can choose to do so at a time that will push the timer into a preferred time for his own group?

And that's a timer where both sides know when to show up to defend the far more important reinforcement exit.

Not at all similar to being able to sidle up to a POS and hack it without it attacking, without needing to wardec the target in highsec, without the defenders ability to prevent you from doing so, and the only penalty for failure a timeout before the aggro resets on the tower.

Your idea had some potential, but in it's current incarnation it's all me me me self entitlement, with no opportunity for reasonable counterplay or countermeasures on the POS owners part until such time as you locate a convenient pinata and wardec the owning corp.
Seraph IX Basarab
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#30 - 2015-01-18 06:26:01 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
You could make the same argument about having timers on your pos. "Risk on your own terms, at the time of your choosing...etc"


You mean except for the part where the person attacking can choose to do so at a time that will push the timer into a preferred time for his own group?

And that's a timer where both sides know when to show up to defend the far more important reinforcement exit.

Not at all similar to being able to sidle up to a POS and hack it without it attacking, without needing to wardec the target in highsec, without the defenders ability to prevent you from doing so, and the only penalty for failure a timeout before the aggro resets on the tower.

Your idea had some potential, but in it's current incarnation it's all me me me self entitlement, with no opportunity for reasonable counterplay or countermeasures on the POS owners part until such time as you locate a convenient pinata and wardec the owning corp.


It really just sounds like you just own some bear assets and this just scares you.
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2015-01-18 06:27:50 UTC
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:

It really just sounds like you just own some bear assets and this just scares you.


I wouldn't live in highsec if you paid me 3 bil a month.
Seraph IX Basarab
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#32 - 2015-01-18 06:29:47 UTC
Don't have to live in hs to have hs assets.
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2015-01-18 06:33:30 UTC
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
Don't have to live in hs to have hs assets.


I neither live in highsec, nor have alts active in highsec, nor own a POS in highsec. I do not have anything to lose by your proposal because all of my corps assets are in low and null sec, and will open fire on any would be hacker.

I merely think you are trying to push an idea that rewards your style of gameplay, with no countermeasures, no ability to prevent it, and with no regard to if it's a healthy addition to the game.

Some full on Reaver Glitterstim levels of "I want it, and thus it must be good" levels of posting.
Seraph IX Basarab
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#34 - 2015-01-18 08:40:57 UTC
Well the counter is the pos shoots at you. Not sure what the problem is.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#35 - 2015-01-18 09:01:37 UTC
so you basically want to remove as much risk as you can when attacking a multi billion isk installation?


-1


you want to know more about that tower join the corp that put it up and do the leg work


or just start bashing and let the candy fall
Iain Cariaba
#36 - 2015-01-18 09:18:44 UTC
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
Well the counter is the pos shoots at you. Not sure what the problem is.

Do you understand how long it takes a pos module to lock onto ships? Hell, out in null I can decloak a blockade runner, empty my mobile syphon unit, and calmly warp away before the pos even realizes I'm there. A frigate? The pos doesn't have a chance to lock unless the pilot is a complete and total moron.

Also, as to any arbitrary number you feel like throwing out as to a supposed "timer" before I can rescan it, I introduce to a concept called "alts."

Now, if you want to know what's inside that pos, do it the right way. Burn it with fire.
Seraph IX Basarab
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#37 - 2015-01-18 23:44:51 UTC
Here's the issue I see right now. People won't attack poses a lot of the time because grinding sucks and it's boring. So an interaction right there is missed out on. If people have a way to scan for poses that are worth shooting, they will be more likely to attempt to do it. Counters can be put in place so that's not an issue and that portion can be debated.

Really what it sounds like is that some of you have some loot pinatas and you're afraid on losing all your stash.


BTW It takes about 7 seconds for small guns to lock onto a frigate.
Chaotix Morwen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2015-01-19 10:20:08 UTC
I have wardecced and bashed my fair share of posses, and being able to prescan them would be legendary. Currently the only way to determine a posses contents before aggression is to get a spy into a leadership role of the target corp, what glorious content. A simple module with a 1-2 minute cycle would do the job, in low/null youll need to tank the POS to get your results, i feel there should be no flagging/penalty for doing the scanning in hisec, if youve setup a POS where it cant be openly attacked without 24 hr warning you shouldnt be able to selectively target threats to it. If you truly are worried about peeps finding your loot pinata just setup in low.
Major Trant
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2015-01-19 14:51:48 UTC
Just try to think how this would be abused.

You couldn't possible afford to put anything valuable in a POS in highsec, because you would be wardecced the next day and have it taken down.

You couldn't possibly afford to put anything valuable in a POS in lowsec because the likes of PL would be scanning for loot pinatas constantly and would dread bomb any they find.

You couldn't possibly afford to put anything valuable in a POS in a Wormhole, because you would guarantee a siege.

Knowing how much stront was in a tower, would totally reverse the intended use of it and instead enable an attacker to decide which TZ the second stage bash would occur in.

This would actually reduce conflict, because attackers would only attack valuable towers they were certain of being able to finish off during the second stage. Meanwhile defenders... there wouldn't be any.

This will particularly hurt the small entity trying to grow. The big boys will be queuing up to take their sweets off them. It will be like walking around a dodgy neighborhood with a sign stating how much cash you have on you.
Chaotix Morwen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2015-01-19 23:44:24 UTC
Major Trant wrote:
Just try to think how this would be abused.

You couldn't possible afford to put anything valuable in a POS in highsec, because you would be wardecced the next day and have it taken down.

You couldn't possibly afford to put anything valuable in a POS in lowsec because the likes of PL would be scanning for loot pinatas constantly and would dread bomb any they find.

You couldn't possibly afford to put anything valuable in a POS in a Wormhole, because you would guarantee a siege.

Knowing how much stront was in a tower, would totally reverse the intended use of it and instead enable an attacker to decide which TZ the second stage bash would occur in.

This would actually reduce conflict, because attackers would only attack valuable towers they were certain of being able to finish off during the second stage. Meanwhile defenders... there wouldn't be any.

This will particularly hurt the small entity trying to grow. The big boys will be queuing up to take their sweets off them. It will be like walking around a dodgy neighborhood with a sign stating how much cash you have on you.


How is any of this abuse? If you have expensive assets out in space you should expect to have to defend it. Right now production POS are very rarely attacked due to the suckiness of grinds and the 1% chance you get anything of value out of it. If we could scan POS we can attack those groups that can afford to defend themselves.

You complain you wont be able to have a POS in hisec due to this scanner, because if you have value you will be wardecced, well if your POS is valuable enough to bash, its valuable enough to hire mercs to defend it (wardec takes 24 hours, allies only take 4 hours to join). I wouldnt bash a medium for any less than 3 bil worth of loots, if you have that much in it you should defend it.

The only reason youd have anything of value in a lowsec POS is capital manufacture, everything else you can do in hisec. Im pretty sure we can work out if your cooking a cap in a POS without a scanner :P SO in my opinion nothing would change in regards to low.

Are you seriously saying people siege POS in wormholes for loots? C1-4 bashes are plain hell and you only want to do them to either **** peeps off, or get them out of your (newly acquired) hole.

This would in fact help small entities, if your small you wont have a valuable POS, and now the pew pewers will know you have no real value, thus your property is safe whilst the big guys POS will be popped for the loot.

I would appreciate if you give this idea another think, im seeing a lot of people scared that the "big guys" will come along and attack every single small corps pos, i dont see any reason why being able to scan POS would cause this. The groups that would be doing this already do, and those with the power to rofl stomp every stick in existance are too busy playing blobs and ladders.
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