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A way to get new players out of highsec: new pirate rookie ships
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Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2015-01-14 10:10:57 UTC
CCP could introduce a fresh line of pirate faction rookie ships similar to the limited edition versions (wouldn't take a lot of design work for graphics since the base models already exist) and these could be made available for free outside of highsec but illegal to fly in highsec. This would give new players a better freeship for flying dangerously, and could help lower the cost barrier to living outside of highsec.

The ships could be seeded on the market for very cheap in certain stations, or given in lieu of standard rookie ships to anyone receiving a rookie ship replacement in these designated stations.

The existing limited-edition pirate-faction rookie ships would remain special for being slightly different as well as being allowed in highsec.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#2 - 2015-01-14 10:15:52 UTC
What a surprisingly large amount of people don't seem to understand is that someone who doesn't want to do something isn't going to be lured or forced into doing it unless there's literally no other choice. In the case of EVE, people keep trying to think of ways to "make more players leave highsec" but the truth is that you're not going to make them do anything. If they don't want to leave highsec it's not going to happen no matter how much you nerf or buff. At best, people will simply adapt to the changes and at worst they'll simply leave the game altogether.

Let's also not forget that rookie ships of any kind are utterly overmatched by what you'll find flying around in low/null that's actually looking for a fight.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#3 - 2015-01-14 10:31:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
if its free then it needs to be significantly worse than a basic frigate

and if that's the case there is now way anyone is flying that in pvp to save 500k

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Arla Sarain
#4 - 2015-01-14 11:42:35 UTC
I think the point is that if its something unique then it will attract the attention of the curious.

If a large enough people do go out to get those frigs there will be enough people to fight each other.


Too uncertain in my opinion.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#5 - 2015-01-14 11:49:04 UTC
here's another route to go: Introduce new pirate epic arc missions that, at the end, either let you choose a large reward similar to the current ones, or set your 'default' rookie ship to these new pirate faction ones, as well as recognition as being a member of that group.

This can be tied in with fw members not getting aggro from their parent faction's npc's unless they fire upon them, and the same concept applies to the person who became a pirate.

Ex. would be if Catherine Laartii ran the new angel arc and decided to become a full-fledged member of the Angel Cartel, my default rookie ship would switch from an ibis to an Echo. If you wanted the option to switch back, they could add that as an option to one of the endings for the current empire epic arcs.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#6 - 2015-01-14 13:11:23 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
What a surprisingly large amount of people don't seem to understand is that someone who doesn't want to do something isn't going to be lured or forced into doing it unless there's literally no other choice. In the case of EVE, people keep trying to think of ways to "make more players leave highsec" but the truth is that you're not going to make them do anything. If they don't want to leave highsec it's not going to happen no matter how much you nerf or buff. At best, people will simply adapt to the changes and at worst they'll simply leave the game altogether.

Let's also not forget that rookie ships of any kind are utterly overmatched by what you'll find flying around in low/null that's actually looking for a fight.


While mostly true, not completely true. FW attracted a lot of bears lured in by the vast (and hilariously silly) riches. Not saying the OP's idea is any good, it's not, but bears can be persuaded to some degree.
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2015-01-14 15:05:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Khan Wrenth
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
... but the truth is that you're not going to make them do anything. If they don't want to leave highsec it's not going to happen no matter how much you nerf or buff...


I 99% agree with you. I just think perhaps we're thinking of this in the wrong frame of mind.

Nobody should be forcing anyone to go to low or nullsec. But perhaps the less secure areas of EVE could use a PR rep. Because I think that many, many people would interact more with lowsec (even if not live there, per se) if they would dip their toe in there a few times due to an incentive, then saw for themselves it's not really all that bad.

I'm partially guilty of this myself. Due to people discussing the greater rewards of lowsec/nullsec life, and due to some forum posts about ninja ratting and exploration, I did in fact start visiting low and nullsec. I found it interesting, and if I had more time to play in a day, I'd actually live in lowsec. It's just a much more interesting game out there in low, even if the isk may or may not be better, the game is certainly more enjoyable and therefore it feels more like you're winning when you're doing it that way. But, it does take more time and attention than I'm able to give to EVE right now. When that changes, I'll be back.

On an aside, I did push on into nullsec for some basic exploration. I didn't do any sites, but I did look around quite a bit for its own sake. Up until I ran into a gatecamp somewhere around M-UC0S. I cut a hasty retreat, but they pursued me. Two cruisers, one named "LetUsShowYou", and the other named "TheNBSIPrototcol" chased me almost 50 jumps back to highsec. Good times.

There's a lot of exhilaration and overall fun to be had in low/null, but people have the mindset of winning EVE = isk/hour. A lot of posters I've seen on the forums jump on the chance to rebuke that, and I'm in that camp as well. EVE is meant to be enjoyed, isk is simply a means to get the ships and equipment so that you can do something fun. We need to get more people in EVE of that mindset, instead of fretting over losing ships. That's like playing Team Fortress 2 and never leaving the spawn room/base. "Calm down dude, you'll respawn, and there's plenty of fun to be had by shooting the other team."

Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2015-01-17 10:59:43 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
What a surprisingly large amount of people don't seem to understand is that someone who doesn't want to do something isn't going to be lured or forced into doing it unless there's literally no other choice. In the case of EVE, people keep trying to think of ways to "make more players leave highsec" but the truth is that you're not going to make them do anything. If they don't want to leave highsec it's not going to happen no matter how much you nerf or buff. At best, people will simply adapt to the changes and at worst they'll simply leave the game altogether.

Let's also not forget that rookie ships of any kind are utterly overmatched by what you'll find flying around in low/null that's actually looking for a fight.
That wasn't true at all for me when I was new, and I'm sure it's not true for many others. Sure, some folks like to bask in the safety of highsec. But others want to leave and feel trapped. I was unable to find an exit to highsec that was anything less than suicide until I got accepted into a nullsec corp who sheltered me with sovereignty and blue space. I now know there were ways to seek my own fortune but I didn't know how at the time, and everything I tried merely got me killed and left me running missions or mining in highsec to afford new ships.

Why are you so vehemently opposed to giving new players the tools that will help them leave highsec, should they only choose to use them? You say they won't use the tools? They can't use them if the tools don't exist!

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2015-01-17 11:07:28 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
here's another route to go: Introduce new pirate epic arc missions that, at the end, either let you choose a large reward similar to the current ones, or set your 'default' rookie ship to these new pirate faction ones, as well as recognition as being a member of that group.

I like this idea. Level 1 pirate epic arcs that can be completed by new players, and not only require travel in lowsec and nullsec to complete, but reward the player with a new rookie ship that is considerably more powerful than the basic rookie ships, while also being a more "flavorful" ship.

Putting in the epic arc requirement also makes room for extra power in the ship design because it helps thwart attempts to bot the new ships on trial accounts.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#10 - 2015-01-17 12:50:01 UTC
Arla Sarain wrote:
I think the point is that if its something unique then it will attract the attention of the curious.

If a large enough people do go out to get those frigs there will be enough people to fight each other.


Too uncertain in my opinion.



they'd get them not seeing low sec. People not risk averse would spawn these, move to empire and resell. If it can make some isk, people will sell. Hell even pirates would lol....need isk they will take that over popping a noob to low sec end of day at some point.

That and not seeing ccp give out cheap (even free) stuff to compete with even a basic 3 man rifter roam. I will be be removing the gate to avoid mexican standoff as to who fires first to anger the gate gun gods...this a straight up 3 on 3 of some p-m. About as fair as its gonna get. Except......you got 3 pirates who paid for their rides and 3 thrill seekers paying less if nothing at all. These noob ship to put it bluntly would have to be manhandled with ease by even the crappiest t1 frigate...lest we see the people going for free and sleazy new pirate faction noob ship spam to kill t1 sales..

Gonna side with alvatore here. People who will leave empire will. They don't need shiny things to do this. My first trek to low sec started damn near a month in when the peeps who lured me to eve from another game said lets roam. Said up front we will probably die in a fire since only 2 of us have more than a month in eve but wtf else you gonna do? Mission run spam another night again? I diaf'd hard, loved it all the same and did it more after. In my case I had the pvp bug already. Had it in warhammer, the game I was lured from. Played in its haydays...if looking for me you'd find me in the pvp lakes in the realms lol. My main was like 90% pvp raised, 10% carebear on slow nights or power leveling. If eve is luring carebears...well carebears gonna carebear.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#11 - 2015-01-17 12:55:50 UTC
Dock in Capsule, Trade to alt via contract, rinse & repeat.
Infinite Pirate rookie ships for all.

Meaning either A: They are useless for PvP
Or B: It just gets farmed by alts.

Since banning trade of them is not the EVE way.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#12 - 2015-01-17 13:26:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
[Why are you so vehemently opposed to giving new players the tools that will help them leave highsec, should they only choose to use them? You say they won't use the tools? They can't use them if the tools don't exist!
I'm not opposed to more tools being provided, although I do think there are enough tools already. As you yourself have shown, it's possible to leave highsec with what's currently available; the trouble is that the most critical tool is making the right social connections in a game where literally anyone can pretend they want to help when they're really just out to stab you in the back for something as little as a moment's quickly-forgotten amusement. Naturally, this isn't something CCP can patch or rebalance and it shouldn't be done even if they could.

Make no mistake - I don't want to see anyone confined to a playstyle they don't like or an area of New Eden they're unhappy with. Gankers should be able to gank, missioners should be able to mission, roamers should roam, traders should trade and AFK haulers should die at the hands of CODE/Miniluv/Marmite/Other. No matter what you do, though, you're simply not going to make people get into the water if they don't want to get into the water. At the same time, I also don't think something like tiny powerless rookie ships is going to make for much of a carrot for the ones who are on the proverbial fence to any meaningful degree.

For the record, I like to bask in the well-stocked markets of highsec rather than the somewhat-excessive safety. There are plenty of others like me in this regard, as I understand. I've been to nullsec and found that the sparse markets, bubbles and most of all the politics (the latter two being core elements of nullsec) were not to my liking. Lowsec's not that bad, although I do think my terrible PvP skills and less-than-ideal situational awareness dampen the experience somewhat.
Catherine Wolfisheim
Perkone
Caldari State
#13 - 2015-01-17 13:29:44 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
What a surprisingly large amount of people don't seem to understand is that someone who doesn't want to do something isn't going to be lured or forced into doing it unless there's literally no other choice.


From a personal experience; I do agree. I personally found my way to NullSec recently, since being stuck in High Sec itself made EVE life, generally, boring. It's boring to be in High Sec. The issue isn't about the ISK, but the skills that you need to survive in NullSec. Theoretically a player would go through different stages while migrating to NullSec, which usually requires you to have a certain level of some important skills.

Meanwhile, what happens is that a new player is overwhelmed by the possibilities, and it's never actually straightened about what's viable, and what isn't, and many people run into the crucible of getting certain skills, meanwhile what they were looking at all along was in the opposite direction.

If you want to bring someone out of High Sec, be welcome to newbies, make feeder corps in High Sec to get them on the right skill tracking and lead them to some feeder system in NS to get them up to speed. Anything less, will result in suboptimal recruits (even for the NS feeder corps) who may or not have to wait in line before they can fly something to contribute meaningfully, or the player will simply avoid NullSec due to the misconceptions that surround it.

Which many players continue to push onto people regardless of whether they realize that in truth, you can't and don't have to force people to play a game your way, especially EVE Online. Everyone is more than happy, especially bitter vets to say about what's important to choose, and what isn't, and what they did right. That's all fancy and dandy, but when you have people who push, as in force people to NullSec, it does and will always have a more negative effect and a lasting negative impression than a positive one.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#14 - 2015-01-17 15:10:00 UTC
Catherine Wolfisheim wrote:

If you want to bring someone out of High Sec, be welcome to newbies, make feeder corps in High Sec to get them on the right skill tracking and lead them to some feeder system in NS to get them up to speed. Anything less, will result in suboptimal recruits (even for the NS feeder corps) who may or not have to wait in line before they can fly something to contribute meaningfully, or the player will simply avoid NullSec due to the misconceptions that surround it.



This more on the right track imo. SP elitism or fear of spyzor kills potential recruiting.


Yes the noob can't fly everything sub cap full t2. T2 prop, t2 tackle maybe inty (but even t1 is good now....hell until inty rebalance they outclassed some inties even)....look you have a tackler. Tod the not so noob can fly a bc for the night since off the hook for the detail. Noob takes the low level jobs, less than noob moves up to other tasks. Some call this line progression mixed with on the job training. Just needs people to not go you suck with less than 20000000000000 sp. Hello use them as fodder if so inclined. We all get to be cannon fodder at some point. I have seen supers used as fodder to bait a trap a few times, start em young with the noobs. They won't be as disgruntled when it happens lol.


Spyzor...always killed me. IMO its not the noob coming in you have to watch, its the planted spy who has been there for months to years. Had my fun with this in a few homes. Never asked for hangar access. Never asked where we were going or what the target(s) were. Yet some asshat would say we were found out...maybe it was the new guy. Yep....it was me. I had no information and rather than try to get into your inner circle of trust I blew my load on a crap op for very little isk lost.

Does that make me a good spy for being a mindreader and picking the one say goon pos out of the hundreds they have...or bad for showing my psychic abilitlies and goon affiliation (assuming I had it) so soon on a low level op?
Mario Putzo
#15 - 2015-01-17 15:29:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Fun fact, people don't PVP because they don't want to PVP. It has nothing to do with the ships, and everything to do with the person behind the keyboard. You could give someone an IWIN button on their ship for their first 30 Day sub, and many many people will use this IWIN button against Rats instead of players.

PVP isn't for everyone. Those who want to PVP will, those who don't won't. It is as simple as that and there is nothing CCP can do to make that change.

And if People have no desire to PVP than there is no reason for them to ever leave the teet of Empire Space. Least of all to Low Sec which offer garbage in terms of PVE content that is relative to Risk/Reward of Nullsec or Highsec. Since the only thing you really get leaving HS is a license to shoot others, why bother if you have no interest in doing that. **** even Nullbears do everything in their power to avoid conflict, even potential conflict. Case in point the sticky at the top of this page where all the Carebears who live in NS can ***** and moan about AFK cloakers cramping their style and "forcing" them to stay docked or in a POS because they don't want to get into a fight.
FoxFire Ayderan
#16 - 2015-01-17 16:41:46 UTC


I like it.

And I think incentives to get people to leave High-sec are good, particularly when those things are restricted to Low/Null sec.

Yes some people will never leave High-sec, but there are those who are on the edge and can be tempted to go. Once there they may find they really like it.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2015-01-18 03:53:13 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:
they'd get them not seeing low sec. People not risk averse would spawn these, move to empire and resell.

I said in the OP that you can get them in lowsec and they are illegal to fly in highsec.



Mario Putzo wrote:
Fun fact, people don't PVP because they don't want to PVP. It has nothing to do with the ships, and everything to do with the person behind the keyboard.

That is simply not always true. For my first few months in EVE even as I played in wormhole space and flew in fleets in nullsec, I spent a LOT more time in highsec earning money for cheap ships than I did out using those cheap ships. Being outside of highsec wasn't just less profitable, it was downright costly. I realize some folks understand how to get lots of ISK with beginner tools, or just happened to explore in all the right places, but that's a far cry from my experience and I'm not the only one out there with said experience. I landed in all the wrong places, found all the wrong things, and learned that not only was losing ships a given, but it took careful planning to get anything done in them before they got popped. My story is not an uncommon one. It's not my fault I didn't know that I was living in high-traffic areas. It's a big galaxy and it took me over a year just to find those out-of-the-way places that others find on their first day.

Experiences differ. Some newer folks can't afford frigates.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#18 - 2015-01-18 05:20:04 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Zan Shiro wrote:
they'd get them not seeing low sec. People not risk averse would spawn these, move to empire and resell.

I said in the OP that you can get them in lowsec and they are illegal to fly in highsec.




Illegal to fly into empire...but what about transport? This would be why freighters have a max limit that will not hold a cap. CCP's empire ban of non gm petition mistake caps is not hard coded beyond the fact a low/high sec gate will say hell no. Frieghters were m3 limited to have this workaround as cargo to be sure. Then when they got slots...ccp nerfed m3 to make sure this stayed in place.

Some people like station spinning toys. They have no intention of flying them....they just look cool and pretty in the hangar. Being illegal to fly might add to the allure of the hangar ornament they'd never fly in the first place.

That and how are you enforcing this ban? CCP has lots of ships that exist on gentleman's agreements in empire. Empire caps among them. IIRC a lucky few cruise kestrel owners are still out there as well. With them iirc the CL's are still on but not functional. Still very flyable though.


With empire caps they had 2 choices....make damn sure they won't be used in pvp by banning flying them or make the lucky owners understand if used in pvp just a little sql voodoo magic can take it all away. CCP opted for latter here. What makes you think they will whip out the code for noobships when they didn't for caps? CCP likes to throw out these small bones for ship collectors, I am not seeing them change that for a noob ship.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2015-01-18 05:57:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Zan Shiro wrote:
Illegal to fly into empire...but what about transport? -snip-

That and how are you enforcing this ban?

I wasn't even thinking of denying them gate access, but rather to have them be shot on sight by CONCORD customs agents and faction navies while also incurring a sec status penalty to the player flying the ship. It's similar to illegal cargo only since they can't confiscate it, they shoot it. Of course since it is a rookie ship, the player should be warned before they go through the gate. Heck, they should be warned ANY time they are carrying illegal cargo before they go into a system that is against it.

I don't see a problem with allowing a player to fly one in highsec as having penalties like this would make it difficult enough as to not be worthwhile. You can smuggle one into highsec but it's only free outside of highsec.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."