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Awoxing is no more

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Tim Timpson
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#341 - 2015-01-16 20:14:05 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
So CCP is going bust? When did this happen?
You want CCP to ignore what they think is in their best interests to appease you. I doubt that would be good for business.

Jenn aSide wrote:
EVE should go bust to appease me, EVE should stay EVE, rather than continue down the road of muddy nothingness other MMOs are and have been.
See! You admit it!
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#342 - 2015-01-16 20:16:19 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Aredontis wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
There is the standard "hey, they have money" fallacy.

So, somehow, DESTORYING the idea that is EVE Online to gain subscription money from people too weak minded to play real EVE benefits the EVE community because CCP will have more money to keep EVE (that isn't EVE any more) going....

EVE is one world, indivisible, with space-liberty and and injustice for all.


Sorry Jenn, but the truth is that without the money of those/us "weak minded" players, no one has a game to play. If the subs from the "burn it all" crowd were enough to sustain Eve and CCP, then nothing would be changing, and yet it is.

No $$$$ No game, it's pretty simple. (and since Iceland's economy gets a big boost from this game, I'm sure even their government wants it making money)

When CCP changes my style (like they did with -10s buying sec), I have to get over it, and so will those who awox. The reason for the change is valid, without corps picking up the new players, they leave. With awoxing being a "thing", corps don't pick up the new players. That is CCP's analysis, and I can't fault them.


I can fault them, because they haven't seemed to learn the lessons of the past. EVE survives despite most people disliking it. Something like 9 million people tried it and didn't sub. And yet here we still are.

That's because EVE Online is an exclusive type game, it chases away the weak and stupid (most of them anyways) leaving a better breed of gamer.

Without realizing it, people like you would turn EVE online into the kind of crap you find on ANY Xbox live voice server on a Thursday night. No thanks, had enough of that playing WoW, don't want it here. EVE is plenty viable enough with the unwashed masses of ignorant gamer floating around out there.


What if the owners want it to grow bigger? What if they want better return on their investment? What if they want to develop more project but can't pay it off of EVE with it's current revenue?
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#343 - 2015-01-16 20:16:51 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Aredontis wrote:
Sorry Jenn, but the truth is that without the money of those/us "weak minded" players, no one has a game to play. If the subs from the "burn it all" crowd were enough to sustain Eve and CCP, then nothing would be changing, and yet it is.

Uh, no. The carebear crowd still has a massive list of games to choose from if EVE fails, because the majority of the games on the market offer the feature set they require. Meanwhile, the pvp-centric bandits and pirates have to choose between EVE "dying" because all the carebears are going to "leave," and the game becoming a typical MMO that doesn't offer anything of value for them to begin with.

We want to take our chances with the former.


Democracy! Except in the game market, you buy your right to vote so it's more like: Capitalism!!!


Right, and EVE makes the wrong people vote "nope, going to play LoL"...lol.

Forgive them space-God, for they know not what they do, because the "carebear" crowd doesn't understand one thing: they think they would like safer EVE too, but they are wrong.

Game after game has come by, from Black prophecy to SWG to SWTOR to Star Trek Online to now Elite:D, all were supposed to kill EVE and most are more 'player friendly' than EVE, yet the people who swore they'd leave for those games mostly didn't (or they came back).

This is because people are stupid and don't know what they want. So as soon as CCp is done nicing up the game for them , THEY (rather than the mean pvp'rs and griefers) would be the ones to leave, because they don't understand that it's the danger that keeps them here.
Aredontis
Doomheim
#344 - 2015-01-16 20:18:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Aredontis
Jenn aSide wrote:
Right, and EVE makes the wrong people vote "nope, going to play LoL"...lol.

Forgive them space-God, for they know not what they do, because the "carebear" crowd doesn't understand one thing: they think they would like safer EVE too, but they are wrong.

Game after game has come by, from Black prophecy to SWG to SWTOR to Star Trek Online to now Elite:D, all were supposed to kill EVE and most are more 'player friendly' than EVE, yet the people who swore they'd leave for those games mostly didn't (or they came back).

This is because people are stupid and don't know what they want. So as soon as CCp is done nicing up the game for them , THEY (rather than the mean pvp'rs and griefers) would be the ones to leave, because they don't understand that it's the danger that keeps them here..


umm, can I have your stuff ?

( sorry everyone )

Now seriously, many people do know what they want. They want lots of space ships with cool backgrounds, rocks to mine, ships to build and little/big red +'s to blow up. Without having someone else come by and melt them. That is what they want... CCP is not giving them that, instead, CCP is trying to get more new players hooked up with corporations, and they are making in-corp killing selectable in the hopes of doing it.
Ma'Baker McCandless
The McCandless Clan
#345 - 2015-01-16 20:20:57 UTC
This thread (much like the same thread every single time there is any perceived change) isnt going to resolve either way.

But I will tell you this from actual real life, real work a day experience.

Some companies DONT want sudden mass appeal. They dont advertise in the mainstream ways, or offer special rates or try and be attractive to the masses.

Why? Because the niche market is a market that promotes creativity and diversity. Without the niche market, there would be only stagnation in the mass market because thats where the mass market leeches its ideas from.

EvE Online is as niche as it gets in the MMO market, so Im pretty sure CCP has never wanted it to be "the next WoW", if you will permit that comparison.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#346 - 2015-01-16 20:21:04 UTC
Aredontis wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
We want to take our chances with the former.


Unfortunately for you, CCP isn't willing to take that chance. I can't say I blame them, this is their RL job and economy.

Then we go back to my statement here:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5406363#post5406363

Why did you take an issue with that, then? You can't have it both ways.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Tim Timpson
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#347 - 2015-01-16 20:21:51 UTC
J'Poll wrote:
A good new player friendly corp has stuff that will assist a new player in the way they need it:

* Proper guidance by older players.
* Assistance in the profession that the new player want
* But most of all, a good attitude among the corp players that keep people interested in the game. The latter, is a matter of trust.

Could you please list me where the first rule of high-sec corp is to brand everybody an Awoxer by default....
The first and foremost thing a corp needs to do - before they even decide what type of corp they are - is to ensure they have security. Since there's no way to tell a legitimate newbie from an awoxer, newbies are a serious risk. There's no point in saying "This is a newbie friendly corp" then openly recruiting awoxers.

J'Poll wrote:
If you play smart, you won't become a victim. Even if you are in a corp with others and if those others are completely new players.

So, a new player joins, how does he know where you are exactly...if you are in a mission, he has to probe you (he...Dscan...ooh probes) or you ahve to invite him there yourself.

If at the station, just redock...if you can't stand 2 sec of damage in yoru ship, you suck .
There are a whole host of ways he can find you. Believe it or not, good corps actually do things together, so those players will usually be in your fleet. If you're saying that in a good corp you would be flying around solo, then it clearly isn't a good corp. And lol, so you dock up as soon as you see any probes on dscan? In highsec?

Sure, you could take so many precautions that you're never in space with another member of your corp, but then there's no point in being in a corp. If you have to hide from your corpmates it's a terrible corp.


Honestly, go learn how to play EVE then come back and we'll have the discussion again.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#348 - 2015-01-16 20:22:15 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:


What if the owners want it to grow bigger? What if they want better return on their investment? What if they want to develop more project but can't pay it off of EVE with it's current revenue?


Do you not remember the past? They tried that.

It turned CCP into a monster of a greedy, grasping, over-reaching company. It almost killed EVE Online.

At the end of the day, a company like CCP can choose to produce an excellent Niche product or a 'meh' mass appeal one. While the rebounded nicely after the incarna mess (becoming a leaner company focused on the EVE universe), they are slowly moving away from that success.

The past is repeating itself. CCP let early success go to it's head a few years ago. Likewise now they are mistaking the current enthusiasm (generated by the new release regime) for something else, not understanding that doing so can lead to another crash. This awoxxing thing in and of itself isn't that big a deal, it's just (again) a small step in a bad direction.
Bklyn 1
MUSE Buy-n-Large
#349 - 2015-01-16 20:24:35 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Bklyn 1 wrote:
As a leader in a group that recruits and accepts new players (this is an alt, don't get all excited), the precautations we take are rather extensive, to the point of being ridiculous. There are numerous layers of protection and security. A very specific recruiting method is used. There are various checks, including api checks, which I hate to have to do, but sadly are a necessity. There are different rules, roles, firewalls, investigations, interviews, promotion requirements, etc. It would probably be easier to get a real life job as a law enforcement officer. This is a game. When things are such that you need to do this, there's a flaw in the mechanics of the game.


You just described the things that make EVE a great and different game.
 .

Apparently, many of you think EVE would be better if it were easier to just join up and go stab things. I don't.



First, that cartoon is a classic and all too true. I joke with people that to be a member we have to have remote access to their computer at all times and if it ever drops the power to their home will be cut and they will be kicked.

But honestly, there is a big divide between 'lets go stab things' and the process we are basically forced to go through. If you think an insanely elaborate process is so great, please come handle recruitment for us. I think the new player would benefit much more from us having more time to teach the actual game, fits, tactics and so on. I know I sure as hell have lots of other things I find more enjoyable.

Yet on the other hand, the awoxer requires far, far less effort, and has far more fun doing what he or she enjoys. Thus I understand the tears. I just disagree with them.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#350 - 2015-01-16 20:24:49 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Aredontis wrote:
Sorry Jenn, but the truth is that without the money of those/us "weak minded" players, no one has a game to play. If the subs from the "burn it all" crowd were enough to sustain Eve and CCP, then nothing would be changing, and yet it is.

Uh, no. The carebear crowd still has a massive list of games to choose from if EVE fails, because the majority of the games on the market offer the feature set they require. Meanwhile, the pvp-centric bandits and pirates have to choose between EVE "dying" because all the carebears are going to "leave," and the game becoming a typical MMO that doesn't offer anything of value for them to begin with.

We want to take our chances with the former.


Democracy! Except in the game market, you buy your right to vote so it's more like: Capitalism!!!


Right, and EVE makes the wrong people vote "nope, going to play LoL"...lol.

Forgive them space-God, for they know not what they do, because the "carebear" crowd doesn't understand one thing: they think they would like safer EVE too, but they are wrong.

Game after game has come by, from Black prophecy to SWG to SWTOR to Star Trek Online to now Elite:D, all were supposed to kill EVE and most are more 'player friendly' than EVE, yet the people who swore they'd leave for those games mostly didn't (or they came back).

This is because people are stupid and don't know what they want. So as soon as CCp is done nicing up the game for them , THEY (rather than the mean pvp'rs and griefers) would be the ones to leave, because they don't understand that it's the danger that keeps them here.




They are probably taking the bets that the people who want all the risk to stay will stay anyway because history tell them you do. If they get extra subscribers for a few years then lose them back, it's still money in their pockets and that, is the goal when going in business...
Aredontis
Doomheim
#351 - 2015-01-16 20:25:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Aredontis
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Then we go back to my statement here:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5406363#post5406363

Why did you take an issue with that, then? You can't have it both ways.


Because your statement was wrong, as I pointed out here:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5406485#post5406485
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#352 - 2015-01-16 20:26:29 UTC
Aredontis wrote:


umm, can I have your stuff ?

( sorry everyone )


Oh, Ill be here tiull the server shuts down, if for no other reason to point out the misguided Aredontis' of the world as the reason for that shutting down of the server....


Quote:

Now seriously, many people do know what they want. They want lots of space ships with cool backgrounds, rocks to mine, ships to build and little/big red X's to blow up. Without having someone else come by and melt them. That is what they want...[/quote[

And that';s exactly what they should not get. And they only THINK they want that.


[quote]
CCP is not giving them that, instead, CCP is trying to get more new players hooked up with corporations, and they are making in-corp killing selectable in the hopes of doing it.


That's what CCP thinks they are doing. They think lots of things. As we've seen year after year, lots of things they think turn out to not be true.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#353 - 2015-01-16 20:26:35 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
Tim Timpson wrote:
J'Poll wrote:
A good new player friendly corp has stuff that will assist a new player in the way they need it:

* Proper guidance by older players.
* Assistance in the profession that the new player want
* But most of all, a good attitude among the corp players that keep people interested in the game. The latter, is a matter of trust.

Could you please list me where the first rule of high-sec corp is to brand everybody an Awoxer by default....
The first and foremost thing a corp needs to do - before they even decide what type of corp they are - is to ensure they have security. Since there's no way to tell a legitimate newbie from an awoxer, newbies are a serious risk. There's no point in saying "This is a newbie friendly corp" then openly recruiting awoxers.
.


Please,

Show me ANY proof of:

* New players awoxing other players solo.

* New players being targets of dedicated awoxers.



You still assume that all new players automatically are awoxers.
They aren't.


I've been in a high-sec corp for nearly a year when I started, they very openly recruited new players...

NOT a single Awox happened...not 1

They openly recruited from a tutorial station system...

NOT 1...

Did we have spies from war targets...sure as hell did...who cares. It's called playing the spy and you are quickly done with the war / war targets.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#354 - 2015-01-16 20:28:58 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

Oh, Ill be here tiull the server shuts down, if for no other reason to point out the misguided Aredontis' of the world as the reason for that shutting down of the server....


How will you know why everybody left when all who left will then really be a silent majority unable to voice their opinion on why they left?
Aredontis
Doomheim
#355 - 2015-01-16 20:29:04 UTC
Ma'Baker McCandless wrote:
This thread (much like the same thread every single time there is any perceived change) isnt going to resolve either way.

But I will tell you this from actual real life, real work a day experience.

Some companies DONT want sudden mass appeal. They dont advertise in the mainstream ways, or offer special rates or try and be attractive to the masses.

Why? Because the niche market is a market that promotes creativity and diversity. Without the niche market, there would be only stagnation in the mass market because thats where the mass market leeches its ideas from.

EvE Online is as niche as it gets in the MMO market, so Im pretty sure CCP has never wanted it to be "the next WoW", if you will permit that comparison.


Your argument lacks facts. Boutique firms try to remain that way because it allows them to charge more for "exclusivity", which doesn't work when your game sub costs the same as the next game sub. The difference is content, and Eve's space ships are why I'm here, I like space. Other people have other reasons.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#356 - 2015-01-16 20:29:59 UTC
Tim Timpson wrote:
There are a whole host of ways he can find you. Believe it or not, good corps actually do things together, so those players will usually be in your fleet..


So, if you and yoru corp...together fail to kill an awoxer...does that say something about the game or about your corp's ability to react to something?

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#357 - 2015-01-16 20:31:57 UTC
Tim Timpson wrote:
If you have to hide from your corpmates it's a terrible corp.


If you and yoru corp mates are SO terrible paranoid that all new players are definately awoxers and everybody that isn't new isn't (hint, age or backgroudn doesn't say anything, it's easy to rig a "good" history just to awox your actual target) you are in an even worse corp and shouldn't be recruiting at all.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#358 - 2015-01-16 20:32:47 UTC
Bklyn 1 wrote:


But honestly, there is a big divide between 'lets go stab things' and the process we are basically forced to go through. If you think an insanely elaborate process is so great, please come handle recruitment for us.


I've been a recruiter for 3 different null sec corps, i know how tedious it is. It should be.

Quote:

I think the new player would benefit much more from us having more time to teach the actual game, fits, tactics and so on. I know I sure as hell have lots of other things I find more enjoyable.


A mere 'game' is one that focuses on enjoyment. That's why EVE is a hobby more than a game. Those tings that take time give VALUE to the experience, having mroe time to do the things you enjoy makes the thigns you enjoy less enjoyable over the long run.

You'll be able to see that soon, as your recruitment job is about to get easier.

Quote:

Yet on the other hand, the awoxer requires far, far less effort, and has far more fun doing what he or she enjoys. Thus I understand the tears. I just disagree with them.


This is really the underling motivation here. "The other guy has it easy" has long been the rallying cry of people complaining about things in this and every game. you can see it here in EVERY afk cloaking, high sec ganking and scamming thread; "but it's so easy for the other guy".

How easy it is for someone else compared to you isn't important in the least.
Ma'Baker McCandless
The McCandless Clan
#359 - 2015-01-16 20:33:18 UTC
Aredontis wrote:
Ma'Baker McCandless wrote:
This thread (much like the same thread every single time there is any perceived change) isnt going to resolve either way.

But I will tell you this from actual real life, real work a day experience.

Some companies DONT want sudden mass appeal. They dont advertise in the mainstream ways, or offer special rates or try and be attractive to the masses.

Why? Because the niche market is a market that promotes creativity and diversity. Without the niche market, there would be only stagnation in the mass market because thats where the mass market leeches its ideas from.

EvE Online is as niche as it gets in the MMO market, so Im pretty sure CCP has never wanted it to be "the next WoW", if you will permit that comparison.


Your argument lacks facts. Boutique firms try to remain that way because it allows them to charge more for "exclusivity", which doesn't work when your game sub costs the same as the next game sub. The difference is content, and Eve's space ships are why I'm here, I like space. Other people have other reasons.


Thanks, Im a liar now too. Ok I yield, you are right and Im wrong.

Im sorry I let my own experience influence my view. I need to take your word for it, just as you dont accept mine.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#360 - 2015-01-16 20:33:34 UTC
Tim Timpson wrote:

Honestly, go learn how to play EVE then come back and we'll have the discussion again.


Says the person who is in his corp with his own CEO-alt...to evade wardecs and play solo to the person who is in a damn active corp, happily doing stuff together, including a quite new player.

And who has been in all kinds of corps and never saw anything that you mentioned about that WILL happen whn you let a single new player in.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

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