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The widow.

Author
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#21 - 2015-01-02 17:29:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
No. The implication of covert cloak BO would be such hilarious bullshit that it doesn't take many brain cells to figure out how and why that would be a really bad idea. The people who'd want it anyway are either lacking said brain cells or think having bullshit ships like that would be awesome, there literally is no other option and whichever it may be, the end result is that said person should not be taken serious.

BO in and of themselves are fine, the Widow is also fine, they could use a balancing pass in regards to basic stats but that would not include making them more combat capable (and 1 or 2 might even need a slight nerf in that regard). ECM being an issue is not something Widow specific and as CCP has stated that they're working on it makes any and all assumptions or ideas on how to change the ship (assuming it would even need it and I'd say that it doesn't) invalid.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#22 - 2015-01-02 18:17:58 UTC
The Widow is far from useless - it can be a very good addition to a Black Ops hot drop gang, depending on what you are going after.

It also has some other uses if you are creative with it.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Fenris Orion
Strata Victoria
Of Essence
#23 - 2015-01-02 20:06:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Fenris Orion
Seems to me that all of the Black-Ops are quirky, and more like overgrown Battlecruisers with special abilities rather than true Battleships. Given all the points about the Falcon being a superior ECM boat, why not forgo the ECM all together and go full tank n spank? Combined with Arazu/Rapier tackle and any number of torpedo-bombers, I think the Rapid Heavy Widow doesn't look so bad. Here's a fit I slapped together:

https://o.smium.org/loadout/18617

::Updated fit because I shouldn't try coming up with fits while driving.... thanks Osmium...
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#24 - 2015-01-02 20:17:08 UTC
Fenris Orion wrote:
Seems to me that all of the Black-Ops are quirky, and more like overgrown Battlecruisers with special abilities rather than true Battleships. Given all the points about the Falcon being a superior ECM boat, why not forgo the ECM all together and go full tank n spank? Combined with Arazu/Rapier tackle and any number of torpedo-bombers, I think the Rapid Heavy Widow doesn't look so bad. Here's a fit I slapped together:

https://o.smium.org/loadout/18617


That's... REALLY bad. Also, some key modules show you don't actually use BO's.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#25 - 2015-01-02 20:53:55 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Fenris Orion wrote:
Seems to me that all of the Black-Ops are quirky, and more like overgrown Battlecruisers with special abilities rather than true Battleships. Given all the points about the Falcon being a superior ECM boat, why not forgo the ECM all together and go full tank n spank? Combined with Arazu/Rapier tackle and any number of torpedo-bombers, I think the Rapid Heavy Widow doesn't look so bad. Here's a fit I slapped together:

https://o.smium.org/loadout/18617


That's... REALLY bad. Also, some key modules show you don't actually use BO's.

I don't do blops and I know that's bad.


Fenris Orion
Strata Victoria
Of Essence
#26 - 2015-01-02 21:45:24 UTC
I don't BLOPS either, and my post was posed more as a question than a statement, so educate me...

Bad because it doesn't make use of one of its bonuses? Not like there are plenty of hulls that give a bonus that goes mostly ignored. Active-repping Brutix, for one example.

Bad because of all the Meta modules? All the BLOPS seem really tight on cpu, and of course its up to you to bling the thing out with faction gear if you like. I just fit that as a possible example.

2,700dps burst reps doesn't seem terribad for that hull, all things considered, and 800+dps out is nothing to sneeze at.

Bad because the other 3 BLOPS out perform it? Well, if the pilot's training plan is Caldari specific, deal with it. I fly Gallente boats almost exclusively, so it's the Sin for me. I'll make due with what I have access to.

Excluding the factors above, do educate me on how awful it is. But do so constructively, as I was just trying to be helpful.
Fenris Orion
Strata Victoria
Of Essence
#27 - 2015-01-03 00:28:51 UTC
Took some time to really compare the bonuses of all four BLOPS and found something interesting.

Both the Sin and Redeemer simply carry over the bonuses of their Navy Hull counterpart. Sin: 5% to hybrids and 10% to drones. Redeemer: 5% laser damage, 10% less cap use. Makes sense.

The Panther is an oddball as it ditches the roles of it's same-hull siblings and carries the damage bonus of the Tempest instead. Still 10% dps per skill level (5% damage, 5% RoF).

Widow is an oddball as it mixes the Navy Sorpions damage bonus with the T1 Scorp's ECM bonus, x2 (30% per level rather than 15%).

As far as balancing is concerned, it's easy to determine that the Widow could drop the ECM bonus, as none of the other BLOPBS carry an e-war or T1 related bonus. But what for?

Given the Widows Caldari lineage, I'd say either the shield resist bonus of the Navy Scorp or another 5% damage to keep up with the competition. Just my thoughts on the matter.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#28 - 2015-01-03 01:26:39 UTC
Perhaps it would be best if you would just stop thinking.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#29 - 2015-01-03 01:42:27 UTC
Fenris, the Widow is a fine ship, just not the way you are fitting it.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Tempelman N
Biomass Transit
Seven Four Five
#30 - 2015-01-03 01:53:06 UTC
I agree, I fly widow and its just bad, there's now way around it. I can push almost 1000 DPS out of my bomber, and that's only with the ship and mod coming to 200 million. I think blops need Interdiction nullification, there as expensive as a carrier, and now with the jump fatigue I can't Slam down a target and jump out within 30 seconds any more. The point behind Blops is to be, a deep space behind enemy lines, for the widow in this case JAMMER/DPS. I think Blops need too have more DPS and covert ops cloaks, THERE AS EXPENSIVE AS CARRIERS, and as far as I can tell a good Carrier can Tank ALOT of people. Making the Blops just as expensive but can't tank for ****, at least make it slippery. Also most Blops are almost out DPS'ed from a bomber WTF. I'v done Covert ops for 4 and a half years and lead more then 300 fleets, I can count on one hand how many times I'v used my widow, its just useless plain and simple.
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#31 - 2015-01-03 02:11:44 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Perhaps it would be best if you would just stop thinking.


You're awfully critical for someone who can't produce a salient point.

So you don't want covops black ops. Fine. Would you mind addressing a different point? Did you miss in the OP where I said I'm not an expert on the topic and that maybe I don't "get it"?

As someone who flew rooks unironically before they were cool I'm much more interested in their generally bad stats, lack of utility and their terrible bonuses which apply to an EWAR system that doesn't even function properly.

But hey keep that tunnel vision focussed on covops blops if it makes you happy since it seems to be the only thing you're capable of addressing.
Fenris Orion
Strata Victoria
Of Essence
#32 - 2015-01-03 02:13:25 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Perhaps it would be best if you would just stop thinking.


Perhaps it would be best if you attempted to be a part of the conversation instead of just a troll.

See, you could have said about my fit "you forgot the portal generator, and the need to carry liquid ozone kinda negates the use of CAP boosters for the X-LASBs" but that would've been constructive.... Oh, right...

Anyway, I updated the fit above. Overheating all of the things, it's got 146k-ehp buffer and 1008dps now. Better? Cool
Squatdog
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#33 - 2015-01-03 08:12:01 UTC
Widow has a valuable niche role of covops dropping unarmed mining frigs.

https://zkillboard.com/kill/43578503/

https://zkillboard.com/kill/43576885/
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#34 - 2015-01-03 08:28:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
People who don't know how a ship is used and then post changes or fits that make no sense showing an obvious lack of insight are no different from someone who's new to EVE, played for a week and then makes a "EVE needs to remove the involuntary PVP, that would make the game just better" post. It gets the exact same reaction, it won't be taken serious.

So no, I'm not going into details on possible changes and issues because a thread like this one, with silly ideas, isn't the right place for it. Especially not because (and here we go again) there isn't anything specifically wrong with BO or the Widow other than them needing a balancing pass, a range/fuel/bay discussion and a possible ECM rethink.
val Tartess
Fallen RaVens
#35 - 2015-01-15 23:06:50 UTC
Lets go back to some constructive ideas which could make this ship more fun without making it over-powered.

Caleb Seremshur wrote:

The module should produce 1 ghost for every full point of ECM it has.

Cool

If target breaker or ECM-mods on the widow would produce (with maxed skills e.g. 4) "ghost" ships.... that would be awesome.
The EHP of the ship are not the best, but now, oponents cant disdingish, whats the "real" one.

The ship and its EHP as well as the DPS output is still.... Ugh
But, you now have "some kind of realistic" tank -- your ghost ships Twisted


Pls post more ideas as inventive as this one!
DHB WildCat
Out of Focus
Odin's Call
#36 - 2015-01-16 02:24:36 UTC
Ill just leave this here for all you whiners that cant think for yourselves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L3VfwAeWP0&feature=youtu.be


go to 20:45 learn and shut up about how ships suck......... SHIPS DONT SUCK, PILOTS DO!
Janna Windforce
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#37 - 2015-01-16 06:51:47 UTC
What if Widow was bonused for multi-spectral ECM? Not reaching Falcon's jam strength, but saving you midslots for tank... Probably it still won't work, but just an idea :)
snake03
#38 - 2015-01-18 06:57:44 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
So this is more of a review than anything else.

Let's begin with: maybe I just don't "get" the widow but it's terrible. Legitimately bad.

A quick list of ways the widow is terrible:
1. Rook has similar bonuses, is a shorter train, faster and has double the base lock range and locks faster.
2. Can't covop cloak -- this alone is enough to warrent NEVER flying this ship. EVER.
3. Weapon systems are bonused incorrectly. ECM gets no range, the jam strength is identical to a max level falcon/rook while taking substantially longer to train. Missiles get ROF and no application.
4. The ship has only just barely better than capitals lock time.
5. It doesn't have the right slot layout to fit any appreciable tank and do it's job properly. It starts off with 50% of the tank of any equivalent battleship which is inexcusable given how fickle it is.
6. HUGE sig, bloated way out of control. 450 at base for "the last word in clandestine warfare". Yeah ok. Like flying a B-52 is subtle.
7. ECM deserves its own topic for how horribly broken it is: it doesn't work properly. RNG based PVP weapons is a horrible idea when you don't even deal damage and nothing you do by piloting can compensate. Arties and ECM share the same cycle time but arties can account for transversal while ECM you just hit the button and if they don't fire YOLO you wasted 990mil. GG.
9. No bonus to the TSB (target spectrum breaker) perhaps the one ship that should have gotten a bonus doesn't have it. Stupid.
10. Is incredibly slow.
11. Glorified jumpdrive platform. Why even design this ship? Just give that functionality to titans.

Yeah the widow is patently terrible. It should be trademarked as an example of how NOT to design something. It doesn't even do it's one gimmick well (ECM).

How to fix the widow?

Well first of all fix ECM. It should produce ghost signals. Delete the TSB and make ECMs break locks and then produce ghost signals within 5km of the ship. The module should produce 1 ghost for every full point of ECM it has. Therefore a bonused ship with 5 points of ECM produces 5 ghosts. Or rather a maximum of 5 ghosts depending on the number of locks and jams the target has applied to it. Rather than outright disabling an enemy you force them to guess what they're shooting. Ghost signals show no damage but always display the same hp as the host. This is how ECM works in real life and should be transliterated to EVE. If CCP can't do it, then DELETE ECM and replace the bonus with something more useful (whatever that may be).

Secondly the widow should get a 20%/level ECM range bonus. Replace the ******** cloaking speed bonus with this.

Thirdly give it (and all blackops) covops cloak. These ships do not share force/combats and don't need to. That just makes things even more convoluted and you'll still see one brand of ship never getting flown. D-scan immunity will never fix the on-grid deficiencies this hull suffers which is precisely why it's never used in actual combat.

Fourthly would be just general small increases to its speed, tank and lock speed/range. Not every ship should be arbitrarily nerfed in order to impose an insane sense of 'balance' by forcing them to fit fitting mods just to do the job they were designed for. That's ridiculous and something we see a lot in caldari hulls especially, they can't even fit hull appropriate mods withouts without fitting mods or rigs while gallente get grid to spare nearly every time.

I don't claim to know the answer but I think I know the problem and the problem is that the widow doesn't have anything to make it better than another ship doing the same job save for being a covert jump bridge which is a pretty sad state of affairs.

EDIT: after a bit more indepth review the widow actually has higher stats than the base scorpion in 2 cases but has 18km base less lock range and aligns at half the speed. This means than when a widow fits a t2 cloak it has less lock range, less lock speed and loses out on manueverability. Not to mention only having 66% of the hp of a scorpion which means a 50% increase in hp to match it. In other words a widow must fit tanking modules to survive at all while a scorpion can get away with concessions through naturally higher EHP (not to mention 25%/level ECM range)





Well, not saying much but I will say this, the cloaking speed bonus has saved my butt a few times by allowing instant warp coiming out of cloak.

I'm just a modern day caveman in search of a bigger club.

elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#39 - 2015-01-18 13:49:27 UTC  |  Edited by: elitatwo
Janna Windforce wrote:
What if Widow was bonused for multi-spectral ECM? Not reaching Falcon's jam strength, but saving you midslots for tank... Probably it still won't work, but just an idea :)


#1: She has

#2: Why not? It only costs 8x the price of a Falcon / Rook and is also a tech2 boat.

Please, don't be rude. I know what Caleb is getting at.

He isn't at all talking about what you think a ship can do but what the Widow is supposed to do compared to her sibelings.

It always bothered me that the Widow has this ten year old CCP office running gag of utterly wrong attributes ditched on her because some not bright member of the bumbebees (formerly known as Band of Developers) got dunk by a Raven.

You have a ship that is supposed to have the best technological gear in all of New Eden. What we have is a boat that is so broken beyond redemption, I don't even know where to start.

See list of bonuses on Black Ops boat.

Has bonus to cloaking device that makes a super-slow boat move at almost titan afterburner speed while cloaked. Taken from the days when all not so stealth bombers had them.

As you fit that cloak, with a bonus for having one, unbonuses all of your sensors and makes your boat that worst ship in EVE.

Has bonuses for an ewar system that is supposed to be the END of all ewar systems. What we have is an ewar system that may sometimes work.
That sometimes is the end of a one billion isk boat everytime.

When I uncloak a Sin in your face, I can at least murder your boat. Same goes for the Redeemer.

If I would uncloak a Widow it goes like that:

Hey Mister boat, look at mah Widow, has ecm - muahahaha
Widow: ECM fail
Boat: Yeay new killmail for me, muahhahahaha.
Widow: Sad POOOF

Can we all see now that this ship needs help?

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#40 - 2015-01-18 14:22:29 UTC
I think if nothing else I would like to see ECM boats themselves get reductions to ECM duration so that at least if they have to fail they fail for not so long. 20 second timers is a large portion of what kills ECM ships.
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