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Dev Blog: Rebalancing Modules in EVE Online, Round Two

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Maennas Vaer
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#241 - 2015-01-13 20:51:00 UTC
What happened to retroactively renaming the modules from the first balance pass? Is this coming later?
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#242 - 2015-01-13 21:18:00 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
If this carries forwards to the more sensitive modules, and meta 4 is removed and T2 strongly nerfed, then whole classes of ships will become largely unuseable without deadspace or faction modules, and sometimes not even then.

Well, we will see, at least every player is affected , but those who used meta 4 because of less than perfect skills will be so out of luck.

No point worrying before it happens, hopefully they will also be more sensitive when it comes to those modules, but I must admit, alarm bells are ringing.

Either that or there are plans to rebalance all the combat ships (again) we will see.

I am sure the DEVs have fittings saved they use for balancing, if they no longer work, then maybe they will take pity on us and rebalance accordingly. I am sure they will not expect everyone to have perfect skills in everything, and do not expect perfect skills and deadspace modules to be at least competent in a ship without running out of CPU cap or powergrid.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#243 - 2015-01-13 21:34:42 UTC
Waylon Skorlin wrote:
I'm also confused now as to the point of T2 modules. In all of these changes, Meta 1 has resulted in greater boosts with reduced penalty whereas Tech 2, for which more skills are required, result in even greater boosts with greater penalties.

Taking Expanded Cargoholds as an example, the difference between Meta 1 and Meta 0 is a 28.61% increase in the boost percentage and a 25% and 13.33% reduction in penalty percentages (structure and velocity respectively).

Comparing Tech 2 with Meta 0, there is a 57.1% increase in the boost percentage but a 15% and 20% increase in the penalty percentages as well.

So, comparing Tech 2 with Meta 1, there is a 22.22% increase in the boost percentage but a massive 53.33% and 38.46% increase in penalty percentages!

So what's the point of training for Tech 2 when the relative differences in boost and penalty are so out of kilter? Shouldn't the concept of Meta 1 and Tech 2 be swapped over (i.e. Meta 1 => greater boost for greater penalty and Tech 2 => greater boost for less or same penalty) to compensate for the extra time required in training for them in the first place?

I'm all for module tiericide as I agree that the previous Meta 1 - Meta 4 modules were, for the large part, unnecessary, but the way it's been implemented just doesn't seem to make sense to me.

Regarding meta 1 to meta three I have to agree, there are only a few cases where these make a significant difference, sometimes none, sometimes a nice little boost.

However Meta 4 is quite another story, in many cases they are the only way to balance a decent fit without going right through to deadspace modules.

There is a reason , for example, why some cost an absolute fortune, and it is not because we like the name.Cool

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#244 - 2015-01-14 17:52:15 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Edit:- I have read throught my previous posts on this and realise that they may express more negativity than I feel is justified.
I want to applaud and encourage the brave direction that is being undertaken By CCP and I do not want to discourag any of the team.

I hope they take the right message away, Modules, are not so sexy as ships, but are just as important when all is taken into account, and I hope that our reminding them of this is not taken in the wrong way, we are all affected by any change made, and some will be affected more than others as we all fly different ships.

Taking for example velocity penalties on cargo holds, some are unaffected to any notable degree and some will find the effect on their game experience is much stronger and of real significance.

Please bear this in mind as you move forward, what may seem overall unimportant, may render some playstyles and game choices invalid.

If you are aware of this and make informed and considered choices, all will back you even if we are affected negatively.

It is only when players feel that they have not been taken account of that people feel hurt.

Congratulations on the work of your team, and I am sure we all wish you success.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
CCP Terminus
C C P
C C P Alliance
#245 - 2015-01-15 11:46:56 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Terminus
No worries, we know people are very passionate about the game, and so are we.
We've gone forward with the changes as is, but this doesn't mean we won't re-evaluate if certain ships or modules begin to see much less use than before, or diversity goals are not being met.


Maennas Vaer wrote:
What happened to retroactively renaming the modules from the first balance pass? Is this coming later?

Apparently this didn't make it in on time, but it's still on the list of things to do.

@CCP_Terminus // Game Designer // Team Size Matters
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#246 - 2015-01-15 17:58:10 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
CCP Terminus wrote:
No worries, we know people are very passionate about the game, and so are we.
We've gone forward with the changes as is, but this doesn't mean we won't re-evaluate if certain ships or modules begin to see much less use than before, or diversity goals are not being met.


Maennas Vaer wrote:
What happened to retroactively renaming the modules from the first balance pass? Is this coming later?

Apparently this didn't make it in on time, but it's still on the list of things to do.


Thank you for that, that is reassuring, please note though when looking for change of use numbers, that there is really no other use for a blockade runner or hauling industrial than to carry cargo. The velocity penalty in most cases will not generate the numbers that will raise alarm bells. But it does make then significantly unpleasant to handle under certain conditions, and that, I think we all agree, is not a desireable outcome.

Good luck with the rebalance, and thank you for your efforts.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#247 - 2015-01-16 09:15:48 UTC  |  Edited by: DeMichael Crimson
Um, I don't like any of the changes, especially turning all of the Meta level 3 and Meta level 4 mods into Meta level 1.

I would have much preferred it if those modules had just been removed from my assets and had the ISK, based on the average Market price of those modules, placed into my wallet.

Since most of my ISK is in assets and not in wallet, Module Tiericide is basically bankrupting me.

Ever since Incarna, almost every single expansion / release in this game has had a negative affect on my game play experience. Each time it makes me less and less inclined to log into this game.

Guess I have a reason to log into the game now - to sell off my remaining Meta Level 3 and Meta level 4 modules before they also get turned into worthless Meta level 1 items.

Thanks a lot.

Ugh



DMC

'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#248 - 2015-01-16 15:20:39 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Um, I don't like any of the changes, especially turning all of the Meta level 3 and Meta level 4 mods into Meta level 1.

I would have much preferred it if those modules had just been removed from my assets and had the ISK, based on the average Market price of those modules, placed into my wallet.

Since most of my ISK is in assets and not in wallet, Module Tiericide is basically bankrupting me.

Ever since Incarna, almost every single expansion / release in this game has had a negative affect on my game play experience. Each time it makes me less and less inclined to log into this game.

Guess I have a reason to log into the game now - to sell off my remaining Meta Level 3 and Meta level 4 modules before they also get turned into worthless Meta level 1 items.

Thanks a lot.

Ugh



DMC


You can reprocess those modules and still get exactly the same value in minerals as before the rebalance. So there's always that.

Also, loling at max cargo-expanded and AB-fit blockade runners.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#249 - 2015-01-16 18:53:37 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Soldarius wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Um, I don't like any of the changes, especially turning all of the Meta level 3 and Meta level 4 mods into Meta level 1.

I would have much preferred it if those modules had just been removed from my assets and had the ISK, based on the average Market price of those modules, placed into my wallet.

Since most of my ISK is in assets and not in wallet, Module Tiericide is basically bankrupting me.

Ever since Incarna, almost every single expansion / release in this game has had a negative affect on my game play experience. Each time it makes me less and less inclined to log into this game.

Guess I have a reason to log into the game now - to sell off my remaining Meta Level 3 and Meta level 4 modules before they also get turned into worthless Meta level 1 items.

Thanks a lot.

Ugh



DMC


You can reprocess those modules and still get exactly the same value in minerals as before the rebalance. So there's always that.

Also, loling at max cargo-expanded and AB-fit blockade runners.


Not sure why anyone would use an afterburner to burn out of a bubble? I didn't see anyone say that.
And yes, funnily enough, people do use blockade runners to carry cargo. Is that surprising to you?

They were used as an example to show that there are circumstances where velocity has relevance, which didn't seem to be taken account of.
The dev has since responded, and we have been assured that the effects are being monitored and will be adjusted if their goals are not being met.

Regarding the loss of value of modules, I do have sympathy, but unfortunately some changes just have to bite that particular bullet, in the real world, there are a lot of traders who gained a nasty shock when the swiss franc removed the euro peg.

But as in this case, investors do have a choice of what to invest in, and need to attempt to be correct in predicting the market. Unfortunately some will always be on the wrong side of the trade.

I do hope however hope that the module types that desperately need the meta 4 modules for fits ie damage control, and command a very high price accordingly, remain as the "premium" option and do not just become worthless meta 1 items. They behave in many ways more like deadspace or storyline options, and that may be the best way of dealing with the conversion.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Valterra Craven
#250 - 2015-01-16 19:07:55 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

The dev has since responded, and we have been assured that the effects are being monitored and will be adjusted if their goals are not being met.


This does not mean what you think it does.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#251 - 2015-01-16 19:16:57 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Valterra Craven wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

The dev has since responded, and we have been assured that the effects are being monitored and will be adjusted if their goals are not being met.


This does not mean what you think it does.

Possibly so, however for the Dev to respond in a reasonable manner is a good sign, and welcome.
The new release schedule does give the opportunity to correct as required, and it is our job to point out after the fact if the overall concencus is that something needs rectifying.
In my personal opinion there are a few points with these modules that meet this criteria, and I have already mentioned them. Hopefully others will report their findings too.

If we act as a resource pool of information, that they can draw on, to supplement their metrics, then that is a win/win situation.

If we act in a manner that is overwhelmingly negative to every change, then they will cease to regard that resource.

So it is in our power to help ourselves, I hope we can do so.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#252 - 2015-01-16 19:21:11 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Soldarius wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Um, I don't like any of the changes, especially turning all of the Meta level 3 and Meta level 4 mods into Meta level 1.

I would have much preferred it if those modules had just been removed from my assets and had the ISK, based on the average Market price of those modules, placed into my wallet.

Since most of my ISK is in assets and not in wallet, Module Tiericide is basically bankrupting me.

Ever since Incarna, almost every single expansion / release in this game has had a negative affect on my game play experience. Each time it makes me less and less inclined to log into this game.

Guess I have a reason to log into the game now - to sell off my remaining Meta Level 3 and Meta level 4 modules before they also get turned into worthless Meta level 1 items.

Thanks a lot.

Ugh



DMC


You can reprocess those modules and still get exactly the same value in minerals as before the rebalance. So there's always that.

Also, loling at max cargo-expanded and AB-fit blockade runners.


Not sure why anyone would use an afterburner to burn out of a bubble? I didn't see anyone say that.
And yes, funnily enough, people do use blockade runners to carry cargo. Is that surprising to you?

They were used as an example to show that there are circumstances where velocity has relevance, which didn't seem to be taken account of.
The dev has since responded, and we have been assured that the effects are being monitored and will be adjusted if their goals are not being met.

Regarding the loss of value of modules, I do have sympathy, but unfortunately some changes just have to bite that particular bullet, in the real world, there are a lot of traders who gained a nasty shock when the swiss franc removed the euro peg.

But as in this case, investors do have a choice of what to invest in, and need to attempt to be correct in predicting the market. Unfortunately some will always be on the wrong side of the trade.

I do hope however hope that the module types that desperately need the meta 4 modules for fits ie damage control, and command a very high price accordingly, remain as the "premium" option and do not just become worthless meta 1 items. They behave in many ways more like deadspace or storyline options, and that may be the best way of dealing with the conversion.


Those mods you are talking about should all become meta 1 as no mod desperately needs it, it just you can push a fit to the max with it. You want to be able to fit things use faction.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#253 - 2015-01-16 19:24:36 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
Also, loling at max cargo-expanded and AB-fit blockade runners.

You need three expanded cargo holds on a Viator to get over the 10k mark. This is important for specific items and hulls. Crashing a gate when you jump into a gate camp won't be much fun now - it was very close before.

But perhaps that is the way it should be. We need to trade off max cargo capacity vs survivability.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#254 - 2015-01-16 19:25:07 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Lady Rift wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Soldarius wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Um, I don't like any of the changes, especially turning all of the Meta level 3 and Meta level 4 mods into Meta level 1.

I would have much preferred it if those modules had just been removed from my assets and had the ISK, based on the average Market price of those modules, placed into my wallet.

Since most of my ISK is in assets and not in wallet, Module Tiericide is basically bankrupting me.

Ever since Incarna, almost every single expansion / release in this game has had a negative affect on my game play experience. Each time it makes me less and less inclined to log into this game.

Guess I have a reason to log into the game now - to sell off my remaining Meta Level 3 and Meta level 4 modules before they also get turned into worthless Meta level 1 items.

Thanks a lot.

Ugh



DMC


You can reprocess those modules and still get exactly the same value in minerals as before the rebalance. So there's always that.

Also, loling at max cargo-expanded and AB-fit blockade runners.


Not sure why anyone would use an afterburner to burn out of a bubble? I didn't see anyone say that.
And yes, funnily enough, people do use blockade runners to carry cargo. Is that surprising to you?

They were used as an example to show that there are circumstances where velocity has relevance, which didn't seem to be taken account of.
The dev has since responded, and we have been assured that the effects are being monitored and will be adjusted if their goals are not being met.

Regarding the loss of value of modules, I do have sympathy, but unfortunately some changes just have to bite that particular bullet, in the real world, there are a lot of traders who gained a nasty shock when the swiss franc removed the euro peg.

But as in this case, investors do have a choice of what to invest in, and need to attempt to be correct in predicting the market. Unfortunately some will always be on the wrong side of the trade.

I do hope however hope that the module types that desperately need the meta 4 modules for fits ie damage control, and command a very high price accordingly, remain as the "premium" option and do not just become worthless meta 1 items. They behave in many ways more like deadspace or storyline options, and that may be the best way of dealing with the conversion.


Those mods you are talking about should all become meta 1 as no mod desperately needs it, it just you can push a fit to the max with it. You want to be able to fit things use faction.

Whilst in an ideal world, that would be correct, in EVE as it currently exists, that is not the case, there are certain meta 4 items that are way outside these strictures, and their removal, without a replacement taking account of this would have significant implications. Hopefully after this module rebalance, you will be correct, but ignoring their requirement is not a good way of handling it. We do not want to end up in a situation where whole classes of ships need a rebalance pass, to correct such an ommission, and Faction should not be a requirement for a FUNCTIONAL fit.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#255 - 2015-01-16 19:40:36 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Zappity wrote:
Soldarius wrote:
Also, loling at max cargo-expanded and AB-fit blockade runners.

You need three expanded cargo holds on a Viator to get over the 10k mark. This is important for specific items and hulls. Crashing a gate when you jump into a gate camp won't be much fun now - it was very close before.

But perhaps that is the way it should be. We need to trade off max cargo capacity vs survivability.


Yes, absolutely right, that Is a decision that CCP need to make, as you say, the choice is if you carry these items at all, as the drop in survivability is significant. It was always a "battle" between the skills of the hauler against the skills of the decloaking team, personally, I believe the balance has been shifted rather a long way.

Now I seriously doubt that the metrics are going to be granular enough to show that the ships are now ceasing to carry these ships and items , as doing so in dangerous space has become a little unrealistic.

Whilst the use in space of (in this case) blockade runners will likely be unaffected, their functionality is significantly reduced. Carrying a little less cargo is not so important, being unable to sensibly carry unassembled cruisers and pos infrastructure is more relevant.

And I believe it is important to point these things out for their consideration, and hopefully they will be taken account of.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#256 - 2015-01-16 20:00:39 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Lady Rift wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Soldarius wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Um, I don't like any of the changes, especially turning all of the Meta level 3 and Meta level 4 mods into Meta level 1.

I would have much preferred it if those modules had just been removed from my assets and had the ISK, based on the average Market price of those modules, placed into my wallet.

Since most of my ISK is in assets and not in wallet, Module Tiericide is basically bankrupting me.

Ever since Incarna, almost every single expansion / release in this game has had a negative affect on my game play experience. Each time it makes me less and less inclined to log into this game.

Guess I have a reason to log into the game now - to sell off my remaining Meta Level 3 and Meta level 4 modules before they also get turned into worthless Meta level 1 items.

Thanks a lot.

Ugh



DMC


You can reprocess those modules and still get exactly the same value in minerals as before the rebalance. So there's always that.

Also, loling at max cargo-expanded and AB-fit blockade runners.


Not sure why anyone would use an afterburner to burn out of a bubble? I didn't see anyone say that.
And yes, funnily enough, people do use blockade runners to carry cargo. Is that surprising to you?

They were used as an example to show that there are circumstances where velocity has relevance, which didn't seem to be taken account of.
The dev has since responded, and we have been assured that the effects are being monitored and will be adjusted if their goals are not being met.

Regarding the loss of value of modules, I do have sympathy, but unfortunately some changes just have to bite that particular bullet, in the real world, there are a lot of traders who gained a nasty shock when the swiss franc removed the euro peg.

But as in this case, investors do have a choice of what to invest in, and need to attempt to be correct in predicting the market. Unfortunately some will always be on the wrong side of the trade.

I do hope however hope that the module types that desperately need the meta 4 modules for fits ie damage control, and command a very high price accordingly, remain as the "premium" option and do not just become worthless meta 1 items. They behave in many ways more like deadspace or storyline options, and that may be the best way of dealing with the conversion.


Those mods you are talking about should all become meta 1 as no mod desperately needs it, it just you can push a fit to the max with it. You want to be able to fit things use faction.

Whilst in an ideal world, that would be correct, in EVE as it currently exists, that is not the case, there are certain meta 4 items that are way outside these strictures, and their removal, without a replacement taking account of this would have significant implications. Hopefully after this module rebalance, you will be correct, but ignoring their requirement is not a good way of handling it. We do not want to end up in a situation where whole classes of ships need a rebalance pass, to correct such an ommission.


EVE fits will just change to accommodate. Name the whole classes of ships that absolutely require the use of meta 4.
Logi is one of the closest ones and there are fits out there that get by
Valterra Craven
#257 - 2015-01-16 22:28:24 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Possibly so, however for the Dev to respond in a reasonable manner is a good sign, and welcome.


Sorry but words < actions.

epicurus ataraxia wrote:

The new release schedule does give the opportunity to correct as required, and it is our job to point out after the fact if the overall concencus is that something needs rectifying.


Sure it does, they just aren't using it to that effect. We've had many of these new releases and so far they've gone back and reworked less than a handful of anything they released. I'm sorry but this new release schedule was not to give them better flexibility to work on things that had already been released. It was to get content out there as quickly as possible to help their income stream.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#258 - 2015-01-16 22:50:37 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Valterra Craven wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Possibly so, however for the Dev to respond in a reasonable manner is a good sign, and welcome.


Sorry but words < actions.

epicurus ataraxia wrote:

The new release schedule does give the opportunity to correct as required, and it is our job to point out after the fact if the overall concencus is that something needs rectifying.


Sure it does, they just aren't using it to that effect. We've had many of these new releases and so far they've gone back and reworked less than a handful of anything they released. I'm sorry but this new release schedule was not to give them better flexibility to work on things that had already been released. It was to get content out there as quickly as possible to help their income stream.


You of course may be entirely right, I do hope however that they have moved on from those times, and are clearly striving to make the most of their new opportunities. After the release of hyperion, they made massive changes to wormhole space, with real and significant resolutions to many of the issues it created, We can only judge them on their actions, and they appear to be on a real high with their releases, they do have a new and very different leader, with completely different priorities and motivations, she should now be well settled in, and working well to get the new direction and attitudes in place. hopefully they will shine if we all give them a chance.

If not? Well it is better to travel hopefully than to dread arriving at the destination.

It can only be in our own best interest for them to wish to seek out and read our views and experiences on the forums, and tailor their ideas accordingly, rather than dreading what they will find.

We will see.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
marly cortez
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#259 - 2015-02-10 21:03:44 UTC
Did they sneak in an unannounced re-balance on any mods today, seems some have lost the ability to use certain mods due to PG issues

Humanity is the thin veneer that remains after you remove the baffled chimp.