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CSM X - What are you voting for?

First post First post
Author
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#101 - 2015-01-09 15:35:24 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
So, the only tactics that work for worm hole and null defense is overwhelming force or kill denial.


In the worst possible case, maybe. My old corp's experience in wormhole life is that fighting outnumbered and often outshipped, and still making a real fight out of an engagement and being good sports about it afterward, earned us a lot of respect and a fair few larger allies--in the wormhole sense that they'll still attack us and expect us to do the same to them, but they'll also invite us on roams, answer batphones (as would we) and team up with us to attack someone larger.

It's true that many of the corps we faced could have burned us completely out of our hole at any time, but that just makes it more significant that none of them did.

I'm also reasonably sure that too much kill denial is the fastest way to get invaded.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Jenshae Chiroptera
#102 - 2015-01-09 15:50:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Dersen Lowery wrote:
My old corp's experience in wormhole life is that fighting outnumbered and often outshipped, and still making a real fight out of an engagement and being good sports about it afterward, earned us a lot of respect and ...
Glad it worked out for you.
In most cases engaging everything loses you ships, time and ISK.

Oh, one main reason to not get burned out is those timers everyone hates, having to leave someone there or a team to get them in when the tower goes out of RF and a team to stop the defenders emptying it before then
Two options there, show cheap ships and look like too much trouble to melt the POS or show a lot of shiny things, few carriers multiple POSes.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Seraph IX Basarab
Outer Path
#103 - 2015-01-09 19:03:02 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
There is no FAQ for your opinions, which is the purpose of this thread. Being condescending doesn't exactly inspire constituents to vote for you either. Bit of political advice there.


Entertaining you is worse because you are argumentative with everyone on the forums.

However, I am going to assume that you have never been in a worm hole and never lived in null to spell it all out.

In a worm hole, when you notice a cloaky ship you hopefully pick them up on D-scan to know what they are. You will also probably see a worm hole entrance that has appeared because you haven't existed your statics.

Small corp / alliance 10-30 people.

See probes - get safe.
Asks corp and alliance if they are scanning.
Know there is a hostile there.
Send out a scanner ship
Find the new entrance.
Sit on the entrance until they leave (decloak when they exit)
De-stabilise the worm hole.
Spend six hours figuring out if any other ships are in there while remaining cloaked and hidden.

You do not go out, you do not engage because you don't know what you are fighting.
You do not want to get trapped outside the worm hole, you do not want to waste valuable ships, pilots or pods.

Null Sec if cloaked ships disappear from local

Every time they hit a gate they pop up in local when they de-cloak
Cloak ship comes in - get safe.
Wait for them to leave.
Keep waiting for them to leave.
They logged off? Probably a trap. Keep waiting for them to leave.
When they hit gates and pop up in different systems then you might come out.
Spend six hours figuring out if they have covert cyno'ed people into the system.
Probably leave the system or log off and play another game for a few days.

Last things consider doing:
Engage them.
Go ratting
Go mining
Try bait them out.

They probably know what you have, they probably have more and if you feed them kills they keep coming back or they stay there day in and day out.

So, the only tactics that work for worm hole and null defense is overwhelming force or kill denial.


I have lived in null actually. And i'm not "argumentative" i'm being a critic. I'm challenging your position because I find it problematic. And you should get used to this sort of thing because as a CSM you will be challenged frequently.

I'm not sure about the rest of your comment. You detail some situations and my reaction is "so what's the problem?"
Jenshae Chiroptera
#104 - 2015-01-09 19:11:25 UTC
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
I'm not sure about the rest of your comment. You detail some situations and my reaction is "so what's the problem?"

Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
Crap answers. .
We have a difference of opinion and I feel you are blind to my perspective. We won't resolve this. Have a good time. o7

That is all.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#105 - 2015-01-09 19:26:37 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Dersen Lowery wrote:
My old corp's experience in wormhole life is that fighting outnumbered and often outshipped, and still making a real fight out of an engagement and being good sports about it afterward, earned us a lot of respect and ...
Glad it worked out for you.
In most cases engaging everything loses you ships, time and ISK.


It's also fun! Not always, but often enough. We flew relatively cheap (mixed T1/T2) and we had awesome space priests. Contrary to popular opinion, you don't need to roll in shiny T3s.

We weren't rich (well, except for the guys who were already rich going in), but we didn't exactly have to bust our tails to recoup losses. It was a pretty good run.

Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Oh, one main reason to not get burned out is those timers everyone hates, having to leave someone there or a team to get them in when the tower goes out of RF and a team to stop the defenders emptying it before then
Two options there, show cheap ships and look like too much trouble to melt the POS or show a lot of shiny things, few carriers multiple POSes.


If it comes to that then yeah, you're in trouble. The closest we got was some guy in a stealth bomber winging torpedoes at our POS shields at some bizarre hour because he was drunk, or bored, or something.

I will not dispute that POSes need a wholesale going-over, and I look forward to the corporation overhaul.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Jenshae Chiroptera
#106 - 2015-01-09 22:04:17 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
It's also fun! Not always, but often enough. We flew relatively cheap (mixed T1/T2) and we had awesome space priests. Contrary to popular opinion, you don't need to roll in shiny T3s.
Spent first 1-3M SP in high sec mining then moving into a Class 2 with HS & C3 static. Grew into that system for a year. Probe ship, destroyer salvager, PI, fueling, mining, Cyclone for Sleepers. Most of the time I was solo'ing the whole system, so the only defense I had was to destabilise any links that came into our system. There would be others around but that fluctuated, they usually left after a week of being blasted away by ships they felt came out of no where.

I could never go back now, would suck too much:
  • Recons.
  • Frigate links.
  • Worst of all pressing D-scan all the time, can't face that again.

As to the rest, I still have a lot of friends that are still in WHs. The only one that engages hostiles; does it because they have a standing force greater than anything that can come through a connection - due to the mass limitations.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#107 - 2015-01-10 00:25:37 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
I could never go back now, would suck too much:
  • Recons.
  • Frigate links.
  • Worst of all pressing D-scan all the time, can't face that again.

I'm genuinely curious to see how Recons work out. I don't see how they're necessarily worse than what's already out there. I do know that we tried a Pilgrim doctrine before this round of buffs, and it was bad.

The frigate links definitely make things more chaotic, and our enablers and instigators were not happy about the new mass/distance relationship when you jump through a WH.

Hating on D-scan is sort of a WH hobby, so, since you're running for CSM: what would you do differently, and why?

Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
As to the rest, I still have a lot of friends that are still in WHs. The only one that engages hostiles; does it because they have a standing force greater than anything that can come through a connection - due to the mass limitations.


We lived in a C2, so if we needed to, we'd drop short-range (T1) battleships on intruders, taking full advantage of the WH bottleneck. But we also got a bit tired of losing to fleets that sometimes had more Guardians than we had pilots, so, again, since you're running for CSM: CCP, and for that matter corbexx, seem happy about the state of things and they feel that the metrics CCP is using (mostly # of jumps through wormholes, AFAICT) indicate overall health. So what would you bring to that discussion?

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Jenshae Chiroptera
#108 - 2015-01-10 00:50:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Dersen Lowery wrote:
I'm genuinely curious to see how Recons work out. I don't see how they're necessarily worse
The frigate links definitely make things more chaotic, and our enablers and instigators were not happy about the new mass/distance relationship when you jump through a WH.
Hating on D-scan is sort of a WH hobby,
CCP, and for that matter corbexx, seem happy about the state of things and they feel that the metrics CCP is using (mostly # of jumps through wormholes, AFAICT) indicate overall health. So what would you bring to that discussion?
While ratting or mining I would hit D-scan often enough to see a ship in flight and I could escape.
Often I would see cloaking ships just before their cloaks flipped on.

Slower than manually clicking, auto D-scan.

There are now shattered systems, the new exploration systems as CCP originally envisioned. Allow worm holers to control access again and let them build a full settlement. They can't make a block, can't take over a region of worm holes.
Stations and system occupancy upgrades.
Maybe stations only in C5 and C6 with larger holes from there into null. Maybe and I say this one very cautiously; rare three day long holes with no mass limit connecting them.

I see nothing but good possibilities in letting alliances take over a single system completely. They become this drifting force that spices up the rest of known space and with a station they can turn into real industry places.
With the way that CCP wants to have null trading hubs and have small null blocs these worm holes could be the "tinkers" of EVE, popping up with goods to trade and supply null.

Friend or foe? Could be very interesting.

Edit: Recons will be a "perfect" cloak in worm holes. You will need a combat probe alt because you probably won't convince anyone else to sit around doing it. No blips as they turn the D-scan immunity on. No knowing if they left a system unless you constantly watch every exist all the time.
Scan deep for them in case they have a book mark way out there? Nothing stopping them having a regular cloak and a mobile structure.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Protovarious
The Neocom Network
#109 - 2015-01-11 19:56:58 UTC
I'm not sure after listening to your interview whether I'm relieved that you basically echoed your overall goal of running just as a placeholder on the ballot...or if I'm profoundly disappointed that someone would use an opportunity like this to essentially have no intention of winning and cry #GrrMittani as an achievement.

No, it's both.

There was nothing hopeful, profound, or even remotely optimistic about your entire interview. Your thread campain here is all negative with nothing less than vitriol. Not passion, but vehement disdain. Everything was grr this, highsec isn't safe enough, the whole CSM process is a sham, and you can't isolate a single specialty that you can point to as a core constituency source.

I understand your motivation and thank you for coming forward, but at arguably the most important time in the game's development history, the attitude you bring to this campaign is the last I want sitting across from people like CCP Seagull.

Good luck, but -1

Co-host of The Neocom Podcast - http://www.TheNeocom.com

Eve Community Blogger - The Eve Editorial - http://eveeditorial.wordpress.com

Twitter: @Proto_Eve

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#110 - 2015-01-11 22:52:43 UTC
I was pretty disappointed to listen to that interview and realise that the analysis of your problem with the CSM "process" begins and ends with you intensely disliking the fact that other players are free to vote for people whom you don't happen to like.

Equally disappointing was your naive idea of "votes against" somehow 'empowering hi-sec'. I'm afraid maths doesn't work that way, sir. If the ebil nullseccers are winning elections at the moment because they can get more votes for their guy, then they're going to keep on winning elections with your idea because they'll be just as able to vote against people they don't like as you'll be able to vote against people you don't like, but that's a contest they'll win because more of them vote.

"Hi-sec" doesn't need any special process magic to "win" the CSM. "Hi-sec" needs first and foremost for credible candidates who can appeal to voters with a platform a little more sophisticaed than "grr goons grrr gankers grr nullsec". Mike Azariah is the example that leaps readily to mind, and he has been elected twice. Deidre Vaal had similar success. In fact there's every reason to believe that when intelligent, insightful, skillful communicators run on a hi-sec platform, they are quite well served by the CSM process.

And secondly, of course "hi-sec" needs to vote. Your "idea" (it's far from new) runs headfirst like every other idea to "reform" the voting process into getting more people elected of the type that the reformer likes: there's no voting process that will deliver results without the actual votes. And there is no bigger enemy of hi-sec enfranchisement than people who try and claim that "the system" is rigged against them or whatever. You claim to be a student of The Mittani's campaigns; you may recall him commenting to the effect that he had zero worries about hi-sec challengers because hi-sec politicians spend most of their energy telling people that there's no point voting. In direct contrast "Ebil nullseccers" who run for the CSM, don't whine about how hard it is; they spend their time getting people to vote.

And it turns out that telling people to vote for you is a more successful strategy for getting elected than telling people not to vote at all. Such a surprise!

Thirdly, you can handwave away the facts all you like, but the reality is that a very significant percentage of "hi-sec" are alts belonging to players who identify as "nullsec" and the fact is that they're not going to follow your banner any more than turkeys are going to vote for a second Christmas. Since the 0.0 alts are the hi-sec demographic that is the most likely to vote, I strongly suggest you think of some way to appeal to them without attacking their "main" playstyle.

In summary I would strongly advice you to rethink your campaign from scratch, and focus less on stopping the players you don't like from doing things you don't want them to, and much less on why they shouldn't even want a CSM in the first place, and start emphasising how you can help the players you claim to represent do the things they do want to by getting elected to the CSM.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Jenshae Chiroptera
#111 - 2015-01-12 00:32:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Been a long night and day, unrelated things. Too tired to care, right now. Respond to you guys at a later date. Just letting you know I have read your feedback.

If anyone else wants to nod their heads sagely and chime in on the chorus, there is the source they are talking about - http://capstable.net/2015/01/11/jenshaechiroptera/

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Jenshae Chiroptera
#112 - 2015-01-12 14:00:10 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
1) ... your problem with the CSM "process" begins and ends with ... players are free to vote for people whom you don't happen to like.
2) ebil nullseccers... will be just as able to vote against people they don't like
3) "grr goons grrr gankers grr nullsec".
4) And secondly, of course "hi-sec" needs to vote.
5) And it turns out that telling people to vote for you is a more successful strategy for getting elected than telling people not to vote at all.
6)... "hi-sec" are alts belonging to players who identify as "nullsec" and the fact is that they're not going to follow your banner any more than turkeys are going to vote for a second Christmas.
7) In summary

1) Power of voting blocks and coalitions getting a candidate in purely on associate with the group. Applies to all of null and some WH alliances, not just GRRR Goons.
2) Can't vote against all the mushrooms that pop up in the garden.
3) See next section.
4) Yes, MoTD in local chat, etc, high sec needs to even know what CSM is. Number of people I have spoken to and have never heard of the CSM, who have been playing for years is staggering.
5) Missed the fact I want more people to mark the ballots, even if it is to abstain. Make sure we are reaching people and see what types of players we reach. Bit of market research.
6) Bubble Rorquals, absorb modules, anti AFK-cloaking just to name what is in this very thread are aimed at helping null sec. People are stuck on the idea that I am some high sec player.
7) Summary, see next section.
Protovarious wrote:
I'm not sure after listening to your interview whether
There was nothing hopeful, profound, or even remotely optimistic about your entire interview.
That was a strange post. On one hand shooting me down on the other wishing me luck and thanking me for running. Buttering both sides of the toast? Lol

It seems you guys think I am shooting EVE down, being negative about it, how about looking at it from this perspective:

Arrow I think EVE is a fantastic game Attention

The fixes, improvements and such that I am campaiging for are relatively small things in order to take what I feel is excellent toward perfection!

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#113 - 2015-01-12 22:45:01 UTC
Your handwaving abilities are extremely impressive. It will be interesting to watch the progress of your campaign.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Jenshae Chiroptera
#114 - 2015-01-16 01:46:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Malcanis wrote:
Your handwaving abilities are extremely impressive. It will be interesting to watch the progress of your campaign.
It is a minority campaign.
Most MMOs dumb down and make killing easier for financial reasons.

However, EVE is too PVP centric. At some point, the power to the aggressors is going to be too weighted, then when it hits a tipping point; the "prey" in the game will cascade out. Bit like how coalitions and alliances cascade collapse - only those will be players leaving the game instead.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Koz Katral
Hoover Inc.
Pandemic Legion
#115 - 2015-01-16 17:39:39 UTC
Your ham fisted blunder-posting in everyone else's CSM threads made me want to come here and check yours for extra entertainment value - you did not disappoint.

11/10. The CSM is in dire need of people like yourself who clearly have no idea how to play EVE.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#116 - 2015-01-16 18:50:18 UTC
Koz Katral wrote:
Your ham fisted blunder-posting in everyone else's CSM threads made me want to come here and check yours for extra entertainment value - you did not disappoint.

11/10. The CSM is in dire need of people like yourself who clearly have no idea how to play EVE.
Thanks for the bump. Smile

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Jenshae Chiroptera
#117 - 2015-01-16 19:40:41 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Sure, null sec is dangerous, UNLESS you are even in your own claimed space.
What are the current solutions?

1) Wait with a counter drop 23/7 and try catch them when they drop
(No sane person is going to sit on 100% ready status to jump at a moment all day long)
2) Camp every gate into your region, all the time with a perfect composition.
(Gate camping is as boring as mining and often less rewarding)

Meanwhile, the AFK cloaker sits in perfect safety picking and choosing choice targets. They are better off than in a station because they can fly to various points and can D-scan.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

THE FOURTHKIND
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#118 - 2015-01-18 22:42:13 UTC
afk cloakers shud not be perfectly safe
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#119 - 2015-01-20 07:18:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
I just took a second look through your main post. I like your general idea for the most part, though I have a few disagreements with it. Firstly, I feel that the high amount of nullsec representation has actually been very good for the game. I have followed some of those candidates and watched carefully what they were pushing for, and have seen some of the best changes in EVE come out of CSM 6, 7, and 8. They very much broke the stereotype again and again, and pushed for changes that benefited everyone. A lot of people still hate The Mittani but I remain convinced he is the best CSM representative we've ever had.

Secondly I feel that your views on the ease of gankers staying safe is a little exaggerated. I think perhaps you miss a lot of the work they do to maintain that safety, and don't see when it fails. I've been on both ends quite a bit and I must say that the prey tend to have it easier in EVE. However, I am not at all without sympathy for them, especially newer players, as many of them still do not understand how to detect threats let alone run from them. So I would agree with a push toward giving people more tools to defend themselves, and especially toward giving new players more and better education on how to access those tools. But ultimately there's still going to be bloodshed and hurt feelings, and I'm more than okay with that, I love it.



I have to side with Malcanis, what he said a few posts above about your campaign. He put it more bluntly than I would have, but he is also a lot more educated on the subject than I am. Also, he makes an excellent point that if you wish to get votes, you have to campaign in a way that makes you as friendly as possible.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Jenshae Chiroptera
#120 - 2015-01-20 07:46:01 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I just took a second look through your main post. I like your general idea for the most part, though I have a few disagreements with it. Firstly, I feel that the high amount of nullsec representation has actually been very good for the game. I have followed some of those candidates and watched carefully what they were pushing for, and have seen some of the best changes in EVE come out of CSM 6, 7, and 8. They very much broke the stereotype again and again, and pushed for changes that benefited everyone. A lot of people still hate The Mittani but I remain convinced he is the best CSM representative we've ever had.

Secondly I feel that your views on the ease of gankers staying safe is a little exaggerated. I think perhaps you miss a lot of the work they do to maintain that safety, and don't see when it fails. I've been on both ends quite a bit and I must say that the prey tend to have it easier in EVE. However, I am not at all without sympathy for them, especially newer players, as many of them still do not understand how to detect threats let alone run from them. So I would agree with a push toward giving people more tools to defend themselves, and especially toward giving new players more and better education on how to access those tools. But ultimately there's still going to be bloodshed and hurt feelings, and I'm more than okay with that, I love it.
As ever, your posts are solid and well written. Thank you.

Right, to the meat of it then. We disagree on our opinion of Mittens. I see him as detrimental to EVE over all. So, I hold him up as an example of where I feel null alliances and coaltions vote blindly for the candidate that they feel is representing their "constituency". I like some of the things Sion has to say for himself. I am not blindly going, "GRR Goons," despite the perception people may have.

The unhealthy factor comes from where the representatives, "live."
I am not a particularly good candidate, because it has been some time since I lived in high sec or worm holes and I think low sec is a really strange case of being neither fish nor fowl. There have been changes to analysing and hacking sites, which I have not kept up with since I stopped being in a worm holes, changes that I don't experience and so fall outside of my notice or don't impact me directly, so I won't become so impassioned by them.
As much as we can argue for the mind and personality behind a candidate, their perceptions are still skewed by where they "live."

There needs to be a balance of representation.
Ideas that might impact worm holes for example, need more than one voice. Corbexx for example comes from a large alliance in WHs. If there was a representative from a small WH corp, there might have been a stronger stance against D-scan immunity during the concept stages.

I am not so much trying to stop ganking, as I am trying to push for ways that the victims can counter ambush or stand up against the gankers instead of running. Add another layer to this aspect of game play.

Maybe we need a general guide for newbies that they will have access to when they start the game that:


  • Gives them an idea of good fits, e.g. do not dual tank.
  • Ways to detect danger and avoid being killed.
  • Videos demonstrating some situations.
  • The benefits of joining a good corp / alliance.
  • An idea of what to expect in low sec, null and WHs.


I will say though; the rage against multi-boxers and now AFK miners has killed an aspect of game play.
The low ISK rewards of cheap ores in high-sec did not matter, when you could do other things, like check your corp forum, chat on Team Speak, share links, check your e-mails, get some work done from home.
You could still be in touch with the game and yet get some other things done, while earning some ISK.

Now, it has become one of the lowest paid routes (yes, even in null (capped income rate)) while, being as big a nuisance, as trying to get some ratting done.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.