These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Why not mark all minerals reprocessed from ships/moduals as "Recycled"
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Nina Lowel
4S Corporation
Goonswarm Federation
#1 - 2015-01-10 23:03:25 UTC
"Recycled" grade not suitable for ship production (lore: not pure enough and we only allow the best to be used in ship production for 'safety' blahblah) but can be used in anything else that requires the minerals?

How would this effect mining now? Then there could even be a new set of skills to 'purify' the Recycled minerals which would only give like 50% back with maxed skills as 'pure' minerals (aka regular non-recycled).
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#2 - 2015-01-10 23:15:23 UTC
Foxicity
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2015-01-10 23:39:31 UTC
As ShahFluffers astutely pointed out, the right question is not "Why not?"
It's "Why would that be a good idea?"
Nina Lowel
4S Corporation
Goonswarm Federation
#4 - 2015-01-10 23:57:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Nina Lowel
Foxicity wrote:
As ShahFluffers astutely pointed out, the right question is not "Why not?"
It's "Why would that be a good idea?"



Because I'm willing to bet more minerals still comes from recycling mission/anom loot then actual mining. This would make minerals from recycling far less valuable but still retain some value while increasing the value of mining as ships would only be able to be created using mined or 'purified' recycled minerals.
Foxicity
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2015-01-11 00:04:52 UTC
Nina Lowel wrote:
Because I'm willing to bet more minerals still comes from recycling mission/anom loot then actual mining. This would make minerals from recycling far less valuable but still retain some value while increasing the value of mining.


You're quite right. That would increase the value of mining, as lots of minerals do come from missioners and salvagers. This would in turn, decrease the value of mission running and salvaging.

Unfortunately mining takes top spot as my least favorite activity in EVE. In my opinion, making mining more profitable would be a very evil thing for CCP to do, as it would lead to more people mining and suffering. I cannot support this.
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2015-01-11 00:11:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Nina Lowel wrote:
Foxicity wrote:
As ShahFluffers astutely pointed out, the right question is not "Why not?"
It's "Why would that be a good idea?"



Because I'm willing to bet more minerals still comes from recycling mission/anom loot then actual mining. This would make minerals from recycling far less valuable but still retain some value while increasing the value of mining as ships would only be able to be created using mined or 'purified' recycled minerals.


I rather doubt it.

I get about on average 8 mil in modules -> minerals per Blood Raider Haven.

That's not a lot. Even when I spend say two hours dualboxing and knock out 10 of them, I have only made around 20 mil per hour per character in minerals.

That's less than a poorly skilled retriever with boosts. And I'm on the upper end when it comes to ratting speed.

And when you compare it to mass multiboxers sitting 10+ Exhumers with Rorqual boosts on an ore anom, they mine probably 3ish times as much per character in an hour than I get from reprocessing scrap mods. And 5-6 times as much as your average ratter. And they can do it for longer periods of time with less input that I can mange. And let's not even get started on highsec AFK miners.


Scrapmetal can still crank out some minerals over time, but with the meta 0 removals and halving of scrapmetal returns, the % of minerals that come from mods are probably low double digits, 20%ish maybe overall, max.
Nina Lowel
4S Corporation
Goonswarm Federation
#7 - 2015-01-11 00:17:19 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Nina Lowel wrote:
Foxicity wrote:
As ShahFluffers astutely pointed out, the right question is not "Why not?"
It's "Why would that be a good idea?"



Because I'm willing to bet more minerals still comes from recycling mission/anom loot then actual mining. This would make minerals from recycling far less valuable but still retain some value while increasing the value of mining as ships would only be able to be created using mined or 'purified' recycled minerals.


I rather doubt it.

I get about on average 8 mil in modules -> minerals per Blood Raider Haven.

That's not a lot. Even when I spend say two hours dualboxing and knock out 10 of them, I have only made around 20 mil per hour per character in minerals.

That's less than a poorly skilled retriever with boosts. And I'm on the upper end when it comes to ratting speed.

And when you compare it to mass multiboxers sitting 10+ Exhumers with Rorqual boosts on an ore anom, they mine probably 3-4 times as much per character in an hour than I get from reprocessing scrap mods. And 6-7 times as much as your average ratter.


Scrapmetal can still crank out some mineral over time, but with the meta 0 removals and halving of scrapmetal returns, the % of minerals that come from mods are proabaly low double digits, 20%ish maybe overall, max.


Ok, for one, why are you comparing your 2 char box income to a 10 char box income? That's simply bad to compare each other.


For two you're also getting bounties, lots of bounties, more isk in bounties per hour then any solo miner is making. You are also getting 'instant isk' via bounties, miners have to first mine, then transport, then refine, then transport again to jita to get the best prices.

I could go on but I think you get the picture, or at least I hope you do else I think you are so set on people making more through anoms then mining there is no convincing you otherwise.
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2015-01-11 00:33:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Nina Lowel wrote:

Ok, for one, why are you comparing your 2 char box income to a 10 char box income? That's simply bad to compare each other.


For two you're also getting bounties, lots of bounties, more isk in bounties per hour then any solo miner is making. You are also getting 'instant isk' via bounties, miners have to first mine, then transport, then refine, then transport again to jita to get the best prices.

I could go on but I think you get the picture, or at least I hope you do else I think you are so set on people making more through anoms then mining there is no convincing you otherwise.

My isk income is rather irrelevent, considering the topic is "How much minerals are produced via module reprocessing vs mining." OF COURSE I make more than two miners if all we are comparing is isk.

Miners having to transport minerals is also irrelevant, considering the topic is "How much minerals are produced via module reprocessing vs mining." So does ratting produced minerals after all. P.S: There should eba local market for mineral where you are.

My point was, and still is that even the best ratter with the best scrapmetal reprocessing skills creates less minerals than a 3 mil SP miner in a retriever. And there are a while lot more amateur miners than best ratters.

You are asking for another 50% nerf to ratting mineral production, even after the previous 25%ish percent nerf (Meta 0 Removal), followed by a 50% nerf (Module compression nerf).

And the reason I was comparing it to a many multiboxer fleet was that even a 10 man miner multiboxer fleet takes less active effort than me double boxing ratters.

Because just on a general scratchpad method, If half of anom/missioners collect their loot (Because lets face it, most all missioners just blitz, as well as some anom runners), and each person collecting loot introduces 1/3 as many minerals as a miner does (and these are very generous towards the loot collection side), then for each miner out there, you would require six ratter to keep pace in mineral production.

TDLR: Show me an anywhere near realistic situation where ratter/missioner mineral production accounts for any more than a tiny amount of the total mineral production. Because that's what is needed to justify yet another vicious nerf to scrapmetal reprocessing.
Aran Hotchkiss
Tactically Challenged
The Initiative.
#9 - 2015-01-11 00:36:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Aran Hotchkiss
EDIT: Curses, ninja'd!



He isn't saying "I want to make morse isk than a miner by ratting" or even doing a character to character comparison - he's saying that your underlying premise of a large proportion of minerals coming from reprocessing modules is a false one.

Personally I agree - I feel this would be a PITA without really offering much benefit.
Besides, the low-quality of recycled minerals is already evident in the atrocious return you get from reprocessing ammunition/modules - you only get a very small amount of the "pure" minerals

You should have enough control over your herd of cats to make them understand. If they constantly make misstakes, get better cats.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#10 - 2015-01-11 00:40:56 UTC
to translate :



I only mine to make isk and want to make more of it without added effort. To make this possible i propose we lower the amount of minerals you get from mission running(i don't do that anyway so it's ok)


I hope this helps future posts in this thread

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#11 - 2015-01-11 01:43:44 UTC
Nina Lowel wrote:
Foxicity wrote:
As ShahFluffers astutely pointed out, the right question is not "Why not?"
It's "Why would that be a good idea?"



Because I'm willing to bet more minerals still comes from recycling mission/anom loot then actual mining. This would make minerals from recycling far less valuable but still retain some value while increasing the value of mining as ships would only be able to be created using mined or 'purified' recycled minerals.

FYI: this was something to DEVs addressed quite awhile back and have revisited every so often. What they have done is...

- reduce the amount of loot dropped in missions by a small margin
(the mission runner tears... ahhh... I still remember how much they cried over such small nerfs to their overall income)

- "taxed" the amount of minerals you could refine/reprocess from ores, ships, and mods based on security status... with "perfect" refining/reprocessing being impossible in high-sec, very hard to achieve in low-sec, and merely difficult in 0.0 space
(there were threadanaughts on this alone).

- got rid of drone "poop"
(old nerf, Rogue Drones used to literally drop compounds that could be "purified" into minerals)

- last I heard, the majority of minerals are coming from mining now
(as opposed to several years ago when Drone Poop and melting down ships/mods accounted for ~60% of all minerals on the market)


Also note that despite all the nerfing and buffing of various activities, they have not directly said (or done) anything that states minerals should come only (or almost only) from mining.

How did you Veterans start?
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#12 - 2015-01-11 03:48:00 UTC
I am in an Indy Corp.....I spend 75% time running missions, 15% of my time getting things researched, under construction, contracts moved, 10% time actually mining if i want a change of pace or to bolster some minerals we are not getting by other means.

Point is in that 10% time frame....I can produce 20x the minerals if not more than i can ever from missioning.

-1 to idea
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#13 - 2015-01-11 05:47:48 UTC
-1

Just another nerf mission income thread.
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#14 - 2015-01-11 09:13:01 UTC
Nina Lowel wrote:
Anhenka wrote:
Nina Lowel wrote:
Foxicity wrote:
As ShahFluffers astutely pointed out, the right question is not "Why not?"
It's "Why would that be a good idea?"



Because I'm willing to bet more minerals still comes from recycling mission/anom loot then actual mining. This would make minerals from recycling far less valuable but still retain some value while increasing the value of mining as ships would only be able to be created using mined or 'purified' recycled minerals.


I rather doubt it.

I get about on average 8 mil in modules -> minerals per Blood Raider Haven.

That's not a lot. Even when I spend say two hours dualboxing and knock out 10 of them, I have only made around 20 mil per hour per character in minerals.

That's less than a poorly skilled retriever with boosts. And I'm on the upper end when it comes to ratting speed.

And when you compare it to mass multiboxers sitting 10+ Exhumers with Rorqual boosts on an ore anom, they mine probably 3-4 times as much per character in an hour than I get from reprocessing scrap mods. And 6-7 times as much as your average ratter.


Scrapmetal can still crank out some mineral over time, but with the meta 0 removals and halving of scrapmetal returns, the % of minerals that come from mods are proabaly low double digits, 20%ish maybe overall, max.


Ok, for one, why are you comparing your 2 char box income to a 10 char box income? That's simply bad to compare each other.


If your haste of righteousness and general stupor, you missed "per character" on those sentences.

Your suggestion has not been supported at all and your original argument has been refuted, could you just please save everyone's time and start arguing for your point instead of attacking others?
Lilith Order
Space Mermaids
#15 - 2015-01-11 10:21:43 UTC
This alchemy is already in the game. It's called salvage and is only suitable for rigs.

I think manufactured salvage was an idea introduced before and never evolved. It takes what you are suggesting to another level, using in game alchemy already in place. It would be interesting to see but another layer of Alchemy would need to be added to salvage and another layer of demand. Right now by design if you want 1000 Intact armor plates you will gather 100,000 current pumps and there is no demand for the current pumps either in how we use rigs or how we make them. So the salvage system creates huge volumes of asset waste.

Essentially though, what you are asking for is there. When minerals become so manufactured they can not become minerals again, we call it salvage and because of the way we create salvage and the way we use it, I'm not sure adding more is an answer to anything.
Steppa Musana
Doomheim
#16 - 2015-01-11 10:22:19 UTC
Foxicity wrote:
Nina Lowel wrote:
Because I'm willing to bet more minerals still comes from recycling mission/anom loot then actual mining. This would make minerals from recycling far less valuable but still retain some value while increasing the value of mining.


You're quite right. That would increase the value of mining, as lots of minerals do come from missioners and salvagers. This would in turn, decrease the value of mission running and salvaging.

Unfortunately mining takes top spot as my least favorite activity in EVE. In my opinion, making mining more profitable would be a very evil thing for CCP to do, as it would lead to more people mining and suffering. I cannot support this.

A typical response from someone who probably doesnt mine, and completely wrong.

Mining can be done AFK, or if ATK it can be done while you manage other things in EVE like PI, market orders, or discussing things with corpies.

Mission running has to be done with close to full attention. Its a lot more insufferable and Id argue bores a lot more players into quitting.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#17 - 2015-01-11 12:26:42 UTC
Steppa Musana wrote:
Foxicity wrote:
Nina Lowel wrote:
Because I'm willing to bet more minerals still comes from recycling mission/anom loot then actual mining. This would make minerals from recycling far less valuable but still retain some value while increasing the value of mining.


You're quite right. That would increase the value of mining, as lots of minerals do come from missioners and salvagers. This would in turn, decrease the value of mission running and salvaging.

Unfortunately mining takes top spot as my least favorite activity in EVE. In my opinion, making mining more profitable would be a very evil thing for CCP to do, as it would lead to more people mining and suffering. I cannot support this.

A typical response from someone who probably doesnt mine, and completely wrong.

Mining can be done AFK, or if ATK it can be done while you manage other things in EVE like PI, market orders, or discussing things with corpies.

Mission running has to be done with close to full attention. Its a lot more insufferable and Id argue bores a lot more players into quitting.



Unless you fly a domi.