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So are minmatar true borked now?
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Norwood Franskly
Well Grubbed Old Mole
#21 - 2014-12-24 13:09:37 UTC
So how would you fly it nowadays, Is it still load up barrage and pulse mwd to maintain 17-20kmish orbit or do you use EMP and short range point?
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#22 - 2014-12-24 13:47:28 UTC
Norwood Franskly wrote:
So how would you fly it nowadays, Is it still load up barrage and pulse mwd to maintain 17-20kmish orbit or do you use EMP and short range point?


Same as before, you kite. Just replace the old LSE with ASB. done.
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#23 - 2014-12-24 14:43:50 UTC
Dato Koppla wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Dato Koppla wrote:
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
Boozbaz wrote:
What's wrong with autocannons now?


I've been looking at minny frigs lately and my main conclusion seems to be I'd rather fly gallente or caldari. haven't really looked at amarr frigs much, but seems like there are some interesting choices there too. the 3 low 3 mid is what made the rifter the best for so long, players could pretty much do whatever they wanted with it. but now that seems not so great, as most other ships can fit a 3/4 or 4/3 layout.

the slasher seems fun, but it is pretty much a t1 interceptor. seems a bit fragile.


Slasher is actually really good. One of my favourite T1 frigs. The really good speed, 4 mids and excellent cap is what makes it good. For lowsec I use an ab/scram/web/td + AAR + neut fit. You can scram kite at 8km with a range script or do a tight orbit with a tracking speed script while neuting them out. The cap is really good so you can run the neut for extended periods. The tank is light and you need to be quick to get under/away from certain enemies but once you get used to flying it it's really good. I've killed Comets, Slicers and Firetails with the good ol Slasher.



Bingo, stop using the Rifter.

Slasher also works in an anti-kite fit; dual prop, bunch of speed mods, MSE, scram.


The Ab/scram/web/td fit also beats Slicers even without a MWD, you can TD the Slicers optimal down to a point where they have 2 choices: Run away or kite at around 14km where they can actually hit at which point it's extremely easy to slingshot them and hit em with an overheated web.

You'll need the dual prop fit for things like Garmurs/Condors and other non-turret based kiters though.


I have killed slashers such as this. Its annoying, but there is no risk. An AB frigate is ****. MWD frig that can win, is an automatic win vs an AB.
Tusker Crazinski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2014-12-25 02:14:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Tusker Crazinski
Norwood Franskly wrote:
Tusker Crazinski wrote:
Bronson Hughes wrote:

It's not so much that the Vagabond got nerfed so much as the Ishtar can do the Vagabond's job better than the Vagabond can. And the Eagle. And the Muninn. And the Zealot.

See where I'm going with that?


It took a hit to agility, falloff and I think grid.

it's pretty much an active tanking scram bruiser that "can" project in event you actually come across something faster or a blaster boat.

also the Ruppy and Cane got completely screwed. theyre essentially old school armor buffer blaster boats with out the face melting DPS or comparable tank and cap.


I saw in game Vaga now has a bonus to active tanking, similar to Sleipnir, which just seems weird to me. I always viewed vaga as fit barrage and kite peoples dps type of ship use the absurd speed to dictate the range and run from anything that you can't gank. I guess with a shield tank you can fit a close range scram and use EMP or even Hail but I don't feel it's the kind of ship you ever want to get webbed in so just seems like a weird bonus.


dual prop it, Unless you're dual webbed you can still spin medium guns. No sig **** from MWD or Shield buffer and it'll go 500-600 m/s under a web.... still not as fun as it used to be.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#25 - 2014-12-25 08:27:14 UTC
Dato Koppla wrote:
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
Boozbaz wrote:
What's wrong with autocannons now?


I've been looking at minny frigs lately and my main conclusion seems to be I'd rather fly gallente or caldari. haven't really looked at amarr frigs much, but seems like there are some interesting choices there too. the 3 low 3 mid is what made the rifter the best for so long, players could pretty much do whatever they wanted with it. but now that seems not so great, as most other ships can fit a 3/4 or 4/3 layout.

the slasher seems fun, but it is pretty much a t1 interceptor. seems a bit fragile.


Slasher is actually really good. One of my favourite T1 frigs. The really good speed, 4 mids and excellent cap is what makes it good. For lowsec I use an ab/scram/web/td + AAR + neut fit. You can scram kite at 8km with a range script or do a tight orbit with a tracking speed script while neuting them out. The cap is really good so you can run the neut for extended periods. The tank is light and you need to be quick to get under/away from certain enemies but once you get used to flying it it's really good. I've killed Comets, Slicers and Firetails with the good ol Slasher.


yea the slasher seems like the best, its just I think I've been looking at the navy/pirate frigs a bit too much to appreciate a t1 frig's stats. I've had some success with the ship, need to get out and fly it more!

Chessur wrote:
I have killed slashers such as this. Its annoying, but there is no risk. An AB frigate is ****. MWD frig that can win, is an automatic win vs an AB.


I imagine that "annoying" to you is death for a lot of people

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#26 - 2014-12-26 08:00:04 UTC
No wonder I tottaly blow.


Came back after a year and tried flying my old fits.... Wtf.
Nodire Hermetz
Diplomatie Rapide
Wreckflix and chill
#27 - 2014-12-26 12:10:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Nodire Hermetz
vaga can be marginally "good" in some case , only because he still the fastest cruiser in the game
but in HAC level , the Ishtar outperform EVERY ship so its another topic....

but like any thread about autocanon , minmatar ship , projectile wapon , everyone came with the same conclusion

1 : autocanon suffer too much by the recent TE nerf , they can't project well and does pathetic dps even on bonused hull
2 : minmatar ships still fast , but they have been ninja nerf in agility , so more ship can easily slingshoot them
3 : artillery still too hard to fit without sacrificing the entire ship , its not a viable weapon to use instead of autocanon

to resume : minmatar ships are fast but not agile , doesn't have a good tank(except sleipnir and vargur) and doesn't project dps well and does anemic dps
playing minmatar are the "hardcore" level XD

there is a lot discussion/thread opened about it , i can't believe that CCP didn't see it...
Tusker Crazinski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2014-12-27 03:05:12 UTC
Nodire Hermetz wrote:
vaga can be marginally "good" in some case , only because he still the fastest cruiser in the game
but in HAC level , the Ishtar outperform EVERY ship so its another topic....

but like any thread about autocanon , minmatar ship , projectile wapon , everyone came with the same conclusion

1 : autocanon suffer too much by the recent TE nerf , they can't project well and does pathetic dps even on bonused hull
2 : minmatar ships still fast , but they have been ninja nerf in agility , so more ship can easily slingshoot them
3 : artillery still too hard to fit without sacrificing the entire ship , its not a viable weapon to use instead of autocanon

to resume : minmatar ships are fast but not agile , doesn't have a good tank(except sleipnir and vargur) and doesn't project dps well and does anemic dps
playing minmatar are the "hardcore" level XD

there is a lot discussion/thread opened about it , i can't believe that CCP didn't see it...


1- Yes they did.
2- NEVER USE THE ORBIT BUTTON.... You have to manual pilot minni ships. But yeah the Agility nerf ****** these ships.
3- Yup. Lowest DPS, worst tracking weapon also demands the most PG on ships with generally weak PGs
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2014-12-29 20:12:39 UTC
Before the "rebalancing" Minmatar used to specialize in PvP. They were absolute bottom of the barrel in almost every category except speed but due to falloff mechanics ruled at solo PvP.

Minmatar ships back then had the lowest dps, worst tank, required the most skill points to fly etc... Because of all of this they were the solo PvP kings but were sub par in almost every other situation.

So then they "rebalanced" the ships because some people were whining that they did not want to have to train "winmatar" to be able to PvP. I don't PvP but from what I hear and what I've read it seems that PvP is fairly well balanced between the races atm which I read as homogenized or all the same with no flavor.

So with PvP now balanced nothing was really done to boost the Minmatar ships in PvE. I can think of no PvE situation where there is not a ship of a different race that will do it better than the best Minmatar ship for the job. Granted they are not terrible they just are not great either. I think that so many people have used the Machariel as an example of how Minmatar ships are still great should tell you something. When you need to go to a pirate faction ship to even compete with the other main races you know something is wrong.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#30 - 2014-12-31 12:00:52 UTC
ergherhdfgh wrote:
Before the "rebalancing" Minmatar used to specialize in PvP. They were absolute bottom of the barrel in almost every category except speed but due to falloff mechanics ruled at solo PvP.

Minmatar ships back then had the lowest dps, worst tank, required the most skill points to fly etc... Because of all of this they were the solo PvP kings but were sub par in almost every other situation.

So then they "rebalanced" the ships because some people were whining that they did not want to have to train "winmatar" to be able to PvP. I don't PvP but from what I hear and what I've read it seems that PvP is fairly well balanced between the races atm which I read as homogenized or all the same with no flavor.

So with PvP now balanced nothing was really done to boost the Minmatar ships in PvE. I can think of no PvE situation where there is not a ship of a different race that will do it better than the best Minmatar ship for the job. Granted they are not terrible they just are not great either. I think that so many people have used the Machariel as an example of how Minmatar ships are still great should tell you something. When you need to go to a pirate faction ship to even compete with the other main races you know something is wrong.


It is more balanced than before...

Doesn't mean it is balanced though.
Torothin
Crimson Dawn Enterprises
#31 - 2014-12-31 13:29:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Torothin
Minnie are not borked. The Cyn and Vaga are great small scale PvP ships. The Tornado is a great sniper and the Sleipner is still a beast. Scimmy is used in almost every fleet doctrine. Hound is great and Pather is great. The Loki also has it's uses. The Mach is the best PvE ship in the game. Minnie is fine, it's just that the current "meta" are drones boats and several noobs in this thread and on eve cannot look past that fact.
Badman Lasermouse
Run and Gun Mercenary Corps
#32 - 2014-12-31 16:11:43 UTC
There is not a single T1 ship on your list there.

-Badman
Torothin
Crimson Dawn Enterprises
#33 - 2014-12-31 16:46:33 UTC
Badman Lasermouse wrote:
There is not a single T1 ship on your list there.



T1 ships you say?

- Scythe.

- BURST

- Rifter.

- Thrasher

- Vigil

- Anti-frig Bellicose

- Arty Rupture

Faction you say?

- Scythe fleet issue

- Stabber fleet issue


I also forgot to mention the Sabre. Bottom line is: Minnie has a **** ton of useful ships. Anyone who says otherwise... I question them as a PvPer.
Badman Lasermouse
Run and Gun Mercenary Corps
#34 - 2014-12-31 17:19:04 UTC
You can question my skill all you want however as a Mini pilot, I know for a fact that T1 Minimitar cruiser and above need some serious love to become viable solo PVP ships again. (Stabber and Scythe Fleet issues being the exception) Also, when was the last time you flew a rifter?

-Badman
Torothin
Crimson Dawn Enterprises
#35 - 2014-12-31 17:38:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Torothin
Badman Lasermouse wrote:
You can question my skill all you want however as a Mini pilot, I know for a fact that T1 Minimitar cruiser and above need some serious love to become viable solo PVP ships again. (Stabber and Scythe Fleet issues being the exception) Also, when was the last time you flew a rifter?



I am too skilled to fly a Rifter now. Putting me in a Rifter is a waste of my skill set. It is however still viable. Have you flown the vaga as of recent? it's totally viable for solo.
Badman Lasermouse
Run and Gun Mercenary Corps
#36 - 2014-12-31 18:14:36 UTC
I do in fact, the Vaga is one of my go to solo PVP ships. However these days after the TE nerf it's damage projection is a bit underwhelming. It is still an excellent anti-frig platform, and all Mini ships are very good at killing ships under their class IE the whelp Pest or Whelp Cane, however they do sometimes struggle within their own class.

Ruptures these days, once one of the best T1 Cruisers, now get outclassed in just about every way by a Vexor/Moa/Maller. Canes are forced to brawl and have no hope of going toe to toe against a well fit Brutix, Myrm, or Prophecy, even a HAM Drake is questionable. You did mention the Arty shield Ruppy (and its big brother the arty cane) which are still viable fleet ships, however they no longer have a significant speed advantage over the other racial ships, nor do they have the capacitor to kite comfortably for over a minute or two. They work for sure, here are some examples:

3 Shotting a Vaga

Kiting a Bait Procurer

I've had to upgrade my T1 Arty Cane to an Cane Fleet in order to still fit a reasonable tank. However without full skirmish links its still a very difficult ship to fly effectively.

With the TE nerf and Mini agility nerf, they have been forced into becoming armor brawlers, where they are outgunned by Blaster Boats and out tanked by just about everything else. If auto cannons get a rebalance, the days of Nano Pests and Canes may come again, but until that time I don't reccomend them as competetive solo PVP ships. Their engagement profile has just grown significantly smaller than it used to be.

-Badman
Torothin
Crimson Dawn Enterprises
#37 - 2014-12-31 19:00:47 UTC
Badman Lasermouse wrote:
I do in fact, the Vaga is one of my go to solo PVP ships. However these days after the TE nerf it's damage projection is a bit underwhelming. It is still an excellent anti-frig platform, and all Mini ships are very good at killing ships under their class IE the whelp Pest or Whelp Cane, however they do sometimes struggle within their own class.

Ruptures these days, once one of the best T1 Cruisers, now get outclassed in just about every way by a Vexor/Moa/Maller. Canes are forced to brawl and have no hope of going toe to toe against a well fit Brutix, Myrm, or Prophecy, even a HAM Drake is questionable. You did mention the Arty shield Ruppy (and its big brother the arty cane) which are still viable fleet ships, however they no longer have a significant speed advantage over the other racial ships, nor do they have the capacitor to kite comfortably for over a minute or two. They work for sure, here are some examples:

3 Shotting a Vaga

Kiting a Bait Procurer

I've had to upgrade my T1 Arty Cane to an Cane Fleet in order to still fit a reasonable tank. However without full skirmish links its still a very difficult ship to fly effectively.

With the TE nerf and Mini agility nerf, they have been forced into becoming armor brawlers, where they are outgunned by Blaster Boats and out tanked by just about everything else. If auto cannons get a rebalance, the days of Nano Pests and Canes may come again, but until that time I don't reccomend them as competetive solo PVP ships. Their engagement profile has just grown significantly smaller than it used to be.



I also forgot to mention the Cyclone. That can go toe to toe with the Bcs that you mentioned. By no means is minnie the end all and be all. But they are also not total crap as many have suggested.
Badman Lasermouse
Run and Gun Mercenary Corps
#38 - 2014-12-31 19:03:45 UTC
I do like the Cyclone, however I just wish it could get a DPS buff and be able to crack 600. If that were the case it would be my go to BC.

-Badman
Torothin
Crimson Dawn Enterprises
#39 - 2014-12-31 22:47:01 UTC
Just because a ship is not the "go to" solo ship does not mean it is a bad ship.
Badman Lasermouse
Run and Gun Mercenary Corps
#40 - 2015-01-01 06:37:37 UTC
There is no ship that is the last word in PVP. Every ship has its counter, however I do like to have a ship that has a reasonable engagement profile. The Cyclone can sport a monstrous tank, however all tanks break eventually and its cruiser level DPS doesn't do it any favors.

-Badman
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