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MMJD / BC / BS Changes & Power Creep
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Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#21 - 2014-12-28 18:55:56 UTC
While cool, it is a bit of a band-aid fix to a much bigger problem. I'd rather they did the comprehensive surgery needed here rather than just treating symptom after symptom.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2014-12-28 20:21:49 UTC
Quadima wrote:
+1 for MWD becoming MJD with a script / mod

BUT, it should have a long ( 30 second ? ) loading time, so you can't just switch it out at any moment.

I see this situation:
"Oops, seems we're losing this, enemy too fast, can't kite ... turn off MWD, put instant script, jumpdy jump..."

Saving a huge amount of PG by having a hybrid module instead of two and actually keeping your ship useful would be great !


The script mechanic would be slower than the current method.
Currently you can be MWDing and then enable your MJD, which is exactly what you are talking about.

MJD have a startup time AND a cooldown. Scripted, it would be slower than the current method.
You'd need to wait until your MWD cycle ended, load the script, start the MJD & wait for the thing to start up before blasting you off.

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT
Lugh Crow-Slave
#23 - 2014-12-28 20:26:11 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
While cool, it is a bit of a band-aid fix to a much bigger problem. I'd rather they did the comprehensive surgery needed here rather than just treating symptom after symptom.


lol have you met CCP

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Pyralissa
Ministry of War
#24 - 2014-12-28 20:39:50 UTC
One of the more interesting ideas I've seen put forward.
Celthric Kanerian
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2014-12-28 22:57:14 UTC
I bet this would bring more larger ships to lowsec...
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#26 - 2014-12-29 18:34:40 UTC
Part of why this would work really well for BCs and BS is that CCP can't really add another mid slot and the fittings so that BC/BS could fit a MJD free of charge or at a discount. The reason why is that a lot of these ships would quickly become unbalanced if you were to use the extra slot and fitting for something else. By combining the MWD and MJD into a scripted MWD you get around that issue entirely while boosting the mobility of the BC/BS to useful levels.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2014-12-29 18:49:49 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
Part of why this would work really well for BCs and BS is that CCP can't really add another mid slot and the fittings so that BC/BS could fit a MJD free of charge or at a discount. The reason why is that a lot of these ships would quickly become unbalanced if you were to use the extra slot and fitting for something else. By combining the MWD and MJD into a scripted MWD you get around that issue entirely while boosting the mobility of the BC/BS to useful levels.



Or bake them into the hulls entirely Twisted
Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2014-12-29 22:05:58 UTC
@afkalt
I did think of something like baking them into the hulls, but that seemed unnecessary.
Scripting the MJDs or replacing the module with an MWD/MJD hybrid is a much more elegant solution.

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#29 - 2014-12-29 22:15:47 UTC
afkalt wrote:

Or bake them into the hulls entirely Twisted

The only time modules should ever be baked into a hull is on a specialist T2 class of hulls.
Otherwise baking stuff in is boring and removes diversity of fittings.
Tusker Crazinski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2014-12-30 00:50:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Tusker Crazinski
Fist of all I don't see kiting as an issue. ironically the changes you proposed would actually allow BCs for further avoid getting caught, and mitigate and void damage.

Really the issue with "kiting" ships is they also have massive tanks, and include things like the Ishtar.

Drones simply need to be hit with the nerf bat so hard the blow could be heard near alpha centari. and missiles boats just need to be less ****** proof and tanky. with these ships if you can catch them they'll still apply the same damage and probably out tank you. whereas a shield kite / Oman gun boat gets scrammed it's generally 100 percent ******.

That being said +1 this would have been a better way to introduce MJDs
masternerdguy
Doomheim
#31 - 2014-12-30 03:13:02 UTC
I really like this idea and believe it will improve the game.

The script needs a long loading time (60 seconds seems reasonable) to prevent abuse, and should only apply to MWDs.

Alternatively, MJDs could be more like an ASB in that it only is a MJD while loaded with a charge it consumes but when not loaded it is a sub-par MWD (massive energy consumption for what you get).

Things are only impossible until they are not.
Sard Caid
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#32 - 2014-12-30 06:45:54 UTC
To preface this post, I feel like MJDs for BC and BS are at an okay spot right now. I haven't been frustrated by their implementation other than by how cheesy they can be defensively.

If this change were to be a thing, I feel fitting requirements for MJD modules should increase, given the additional benefit of the hybrid module. I don't think heat should incite the MJD affect; rather only affect the MWD speed bonus as per normal MWD heat benefits. Instead of a script, allow the module to be interacted with using right click context menu to select MJD mode, or by use of a radial UI element to achieve the same affect. I strongly dislike the use of scripts as I feel that they're an archaic means of altering module behavior, and would prefer module mode swapping to be inherent to the module.

How you described swapping from MWD to MJD mode, ie stopping the active module and swapping to MJD mode sounds appropriate.
Sard Caid
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#33 - 2014-12-30 06:58:38 UTC
That said, I'd like to add that I only feel that shield tanked ships are the losers with the addition of MJD modules, as tying two midslots to MWD + MJD is a huge burden to their tank as well as fitting. What I find curious about the two modules "totally compromising the setup" of most BC or BS is that many BC and BS gained midslots from rebalance efforts, or in the past typically didn't have propulsion modules fitted (many shield tanked BS, Amarr BS). Many BC/BS now have the option to fit a prop or even dual prop, where it wasn't an option previously.

I like that the MJD requires a dedicated midslot and extra fitting to use; I think it'd be a silly ability for BC/BS to have otherwise. I think most BC/BS can get by using MWD + MJD fittings in ways that are effective and useful. I think making a hybrid module as you described would allow BC/BS to disengage or offensively blink more casually, without addressing the core cause for stagnation of BC/BS PvP in the current meta game. Given that I feel MJDs are fine as implemented, I would prefer to see buffs/nerfs to BC/BS and other classes to facilitate change before giving every BC/BS a get out of jail free card versus opponents without scramblers.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2014-12-30 08:21:08 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
afkalt wrote:

Or bake them into the hulls entirely Twisted

The only time modules should ever be baked into a hull is on a specialist T2 class of hulls.
Otherwise baking stuff in is boring and removes diversity of fittings.


Well, to a point. Prop mods aren't really 'optional' in 99.99% of cases and it means there's no weird coding needed to stop my 100MN fit stabber MJDing.
SiKong Ma
Perkone
Caldari State
#35 - 2014-12-30 08:37:58 UTC
+1 to this idea but give all medium and large MWD to do MJD with loaded scripts (retire the MMJD and and LMJD).
Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross
Unreasonable Bastards
#36 - 2014-12-30 08:45:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Murkar Omaristos
+1 to this......I too think that kitey ships are getting far too OP. There needs to be a trade off of dps vs. range, and for cruiser class ships its slowly trickling away.

A well piloted Orthrus is now basically impossible to catch, and can point & alpha small ships from a ridiculous distance.

On battlecruisers; some of them do need their agility adjusted. However I think it would be important to make sure that tier 3s are well balanced so as to not become super fast kiting ships.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#37 - 2014-12-30 08:58:47 UTC
Came expecting a bad OP with rants etc. Now leaving very surprised and seeing it's actually a good idea.

Sir, you have my +1.

Great idea.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2014-12-30 12:56:06 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
afkalt wrote:

Or bake them into the hulls entirely Twisted

The only time modules should ever be baked into a hull is on a specialist T2 class of hulls.
Otherwise baking stuff in is boring and removes diversity of fittings.


Well, to a point. Prop mods aren't really 'optional' in 99.99% of cases and it means there's no weird coding needed to stop my 100MN fit stabber MJDing.



Actually this could be resolved by making it a script for the jump drives instead.

So keep the MJD module AND the MWD modules but make scripts for the jump drives which make them MWD rather than the origianl idea of MWD scripts.

This maintains oversized MWDs being usable, still maintains the original idea AND keeps the existing lockout on MJDs - from ABCs, for example.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#39 - 2014-12-30 18:39:52 UTC
While we are at it, I think 3 minutes is a tad long for the cooldown. What about 2 minutes instead?

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Mario Putzo
#40 - 2014-12-30 19:36:37 UTC
Biggest detractor to BC and BS atm is proliferation of Bombers. Especially for Shield BC and BS, but Armor variants are not immune. Additionally Warp speeds of these ships are terrible and make them not very fun ships to roam around in.

I do like the MWD script idea though turning it to a MJD.

But i think there needs to be a lot more help given to BC and BS atm.
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