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New approach to ECM: discrete targeting units
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Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#101 - 2014-12-28 11:27:23 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
No, you still have to reacquire targets. That can be crippling to a ship that has to keep re-starting the lock and spends most of their time trying to lock a target rather than actually shooting.


How is this less infuriating and un-fun for the targeted pilot than the ECM system we have today?
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#102 - 2014-12-28 11:56:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
How is this less infuriating and un-fun for the targeted pilot than the ECM system we have today?

Because it gives the victim more options to respond. They can focus their energy in trying to re-lock as fast as possible instead of sitting back and waiting out the timer. They can switch their sensor booster to scan resolution script. They can try focusing on larger targets. They can ask fleetmates to point target painters at their targets. They can watch opponent speeds to gauge who has their MWD on. They can switch drone targets in-between locks, or overheat weapons to get the most out of their limited shooting time.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Generaloberst Kluntz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#103 - 2014-12-28 13:40:30 UTC
God. How thick.
Shakira Akira
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#104 - 2014-12-28 17:52:18 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
3 seconds, perhaps, if you're in a cruiser. Even most frigates don't lock targets back in one second. And three seconds is plenty enough time to make or break a fight.


as I said, in an alpha fleet sure, in a real fight, not really. since you're talking about a max of 1-2 volleys. But you won't see ECM tagging along an alpha fleet. Nor one used as a counter to an alpha fleet since it'll just get alphad off the field. Notice there's no ECM with any of the new drone metas?

Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Not if you're a cap chain logi.


OK.. I'll bite..

You're in cap chain, guardians.

Scenario 1 ECM. You have ONLY 2 guardians, so your cap transfer is to each other. You jam 1. they're effectively both dried out, in 3-4 cycles. Depending on how many reps they have going. Of course this also means you are using non cap stable Guardian fits,. Now ECM is an effective counter to it, provided you can kill your target within that 1 jam cycle, because as soon as subsequent jams are used, the cap chain has a chance to come back. Now this requires obviously a dedicated ECM boat, as the guardians have a fairly high resiliency, (and most fits used to have an ECCM just to ensure that it stays high). But I am sure we can both agree that it won't be a guaranteed Jam.

Scenario 2. SD. You still only have 2 guardians, however, your enemy fleet uses no dedicated ECM boat, but instead has an extra DPS boat. And as most DPS boats, they have EWAR fitted, which is often sensor damps etc. Now. You have 100% chance for success on this as there's no failure in any other Ewar. Also, your logi is rarely if at all ever fitted with anything to counter that. As I have yet to see meta fits that use Sensor boosters on their logi. So if you're facing anything more than 3 opponents, your logi's locking range is less than 55k, meaning, your logi now has to get 15k closer to the fight. That's with only 3 sensor damps that aren't even scripted. Add some scripts to that, and now your logi has to be on top of your own fleet, which means in range of the enemy.


Scenario 2. ECM. Blobbing, you got a 200 man CFC fleet, 30 guardians running cap chains. I'm sure we can agree unless you have a dedicated falcon squad flying against them. You're not going to be effectively jamming that cap chain out, and you don't really need more than 10 logi to keep any target alive as the combined repping of those is over 120k per cycle.

Scenario 2. NONECM. Enemy fleet (if they're using smae breakdown of 30 logi rest DPS) has 170 damps to spread amongst your logi. which means almost 5 damps per logi.


Shakira Akira
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#105 - 2014-12-28 17:53:27 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
How is this less infuriating and un-fun for the targeted pilot than the ECM system we have today?

Because it gives the victim more options to respond. They can focus their energy in trying to re-lock as fast as possible instead of sitting back and waiting out the timer. They can switch their sensor booster to scan resolution script. They can try focusing on larger targets. They can ask fleetmates to point target painters at their targets. They can watch opponent speeds to gauge who has their MWD on. They can switch drone targets in-between locks, or overheat weapons to get the most out of their limited shooting time.



Provided you have a sensor booster fitted.
Generaloberst Kluntz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#106 - 2014-12-28 19:58:06 UTC
Shakira, don't feed the uninformed.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#107 - 2014-12-28 21:22:39 UTC
Shakira Akira wrote:
OK.. I'll bite..

You're in cap chain, guardians.

Scenario 1 ECM.

Sounds to me like both ECM jammers and tracking disruptors are effective in my suggestion. Both require the logi to change tactics to adapt to the change. With damps the logi must get close to the gunners in order to continue repping, or stay away and let them fend for themselves. Gives plenty choice. (Also you're exaggerating on the effectiveness of multiple unbonused stacking-penalized tracking disruptors.) ECM can take out a cap chain if it isn't managed well. Make one guardian skip a few cycles and everyone relying on that guardian gets capped out. One way I see to combat that is to double-chain (one up, one down) even if your logi members all have logi 5. Alternatively, if your logi have the player skill, they can watch their capacitor and stop repping and chaining briefly to prevent capping out. Then you have to try and fix the cap chain to skip over whoever is capped out, and you've got to respond to that quickly.

So the tracking disruptors are less effective overall. Seems balanced to me, given that you're counting unbonused tracking disruption against no sensor boosters vs. bonused ECM against ECCM. Also seems strikingly similar to the current meta, except in my example non-Falcon ECM is actually more likely to do anything at all against ECCM-protected logi.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."