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[Autocannons] A Balance Suggestion

Author
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#301 - 2014-12-26 07:47:12 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Just as many stabbers are sold as omens. More 425s are sold than heavy pulse. The cynable out sells the vigilant by a factor of two. This is the reality.

I understand this game perfectly. Most corp roams are based around fast cruisers with the bulk being the cynable. To say that the cynable is not a good ship is an outright lie and a very visible one at that. If you want to be taken seriously then the lies and explosive rage at anyone who disagrees with you need to stop.

The arguments here are weak to say the least. This thread is full of people looking at DPS numbers only, people trying to use autos and arty like other weapon system and getting bad results, people badly fitting their ships and using poor tactics then blaming the tools and whenever someone points out they are wrong they pull a tantrum and toss the insults around while not addressing the points that were raised. It is also not a good idea to start trying to say people who disagree with you don't know how to play the game when the same people are well known for their ability to get ships to do seemingly impossible things.





You say you know something about the game but can't even spell cynabal correctly.
Nodire Hermetz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#302 - 2014-12-26 11:16:44 UTC
don't listen baltec1 , he is only in superblob fleet and can't even know a single things about small nanogang
like you see , to see if a ship is good , he use the market , lol

we still waiting a blue response
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#303 - 2014-12-26 13:39:26 UTC
Alia Ravenswing wrote:
I disagree. You forgot about the other benefits they have such as RANGE, and no flight time.

As a Minmatar, I like the Autocannons and Arty just fine the way it is.


You are flying in gangs/fleets, thats why. The low dps of a/c's is offset by the 10 other people in your gang doing dps. Come back when you actually are the only one trying to kill something with a/c's. On the toon you posted on, you haven't killed anyone in over a year, and have died multiple times recently. All your kills are with multiple people Not sure i can really take you seriously.

I love how people don't read the details of the thread, and then post oblivious to what has already been explained. If you have a counter point, mention it. Don't just type in the same tired statement that has been discussed already. If you disagree with our points, then discuss your counter-point in detail.

We are talking about a fall-off increase, thats it. Someone explain to me why 10-15% more fall-off is going to be game breaking? I think it will be good for solo minny pilots, and will increase a/c viability considerably to small/medium turret sizes. It will make fall-off bonuses actually worth a damn.

I am also a minny pilot, but unlike you i fly solo, so the downfalls of a/c and arty are more readily apparent, unlike in a gang/fleet.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#304 - 2014-12-26 22:07:14 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Diesel47 wrote:


You say you know something about the game but can't even spell cynabal correctly.


Because spelling is an indication of skill at piloting...

See, this new argument of "but you are flying in gangs" is as old as the game. I had people using it on me several years ago with my blaster boats, before that it was on my retributions, also on bombers, recently the golem and someone said it about the phoenix recently. Its just as rubbish as in all those other cases. People saying that market data has no baring on how good ships are are also yammering tosh. The stabber is a pvp ship, it has little to no uses in pve so the fact that its selling just as well as the other "good" ships just tells us that its doing just fine.

This is just another one of those threads with a few loud, angry people looking for their easy mode back again.

Now as to why more range for a/c is not a great idea. Matari ships, for the most part, are faster then blaster boats, they can dictate range. If you give their weapons even more range then they can effectively out range blaster ships forever, this is exactly the problem people had before.
Nodire Hermetz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#305 - 2014-12-26 22:19:00 UTC
sure , market activity about ships give a good indicaton of their effectiveness on field ..... REALLY??!!??
and , just to be correct , we don't saying that you're flying in gang , you are IN BLOB FLEET , there is a gap yu know...
and you still not respond at what we asking...
WHY giving a small buff in falloff of 10-20% will be an easy mode for minmatar ships/pilots. explain me , explain us FFS

you are just trolling hard dude , and don't giving any constructed counter-argument/argument...
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#306 - 2014-12-26 22:54:30 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Nodire Hermetz wrote:
sure , market activity about ships give a good indicaton of their effectiveness on field ..... REALLY??!!??
and , just to be correct , we don't saying that you're flying in gang , you are IN BLOB FLEET , there is a gap yu know...
and you still not respond at what we asking...
WHY giving a small buff in falloff of 10-20% will be an easy mode for minmatar ships/pilots. explain me , explain us FFS

you are just trolling hard dude , and don't giving any constructed counter-argument/argument...


How about reading the last bit where I told you what would happen? Put your angry beans away for a while and read what I type then think on it for a while before flipping your ****.

As for our blobs. Is a 3 man gang now considered a blob?

Market data is indeed valid when the ship in question has next to no uses in pve. Do you honestly think people are buying this ship and then just tossing it onto smaugs hoard?
Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
#307 - 2014-12-26 23:42:43 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
* and *This Sleipnir loads 13 charges into an ASB* (I kinda miss this one, wasn't OP at all I swear).

I sit in mine that still has its 13 charges in whenever I feel really down, sadly it doesn´t have the awesome look of 6 turrets sitting in the front of a cyclonehull anymore and I feel down again.

I am not sure if the overall problem are the AC-hulls or the weapons themselves but this really needs an overhaul.
I want another reason to fly Minmatar besides utilitywebs, when only pure speed matters, because some people´s bio tells me to shoot that specific stuff at rats or because people will engade me if they see me fly it.
Krops Vont
#308 - 2014-12-26 23:49:15 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
[quote=Diesel47]The stabber is a pvp ship, it has little to no uses in pve so the fact that its selling just as well as the other "good" ships just tells us that its doing just fine.



Nah. Its a great PVE ship if you know how to fly it. The key is not sitting still. Cool

--==Services==--

Propaganda/Art/Media

Wormhole Finding & Selling

o/ Play for fun

Icarus Able
Refuse.Resist
#309 - 2014-12-26 23:53:10 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
despite them being a little weak on damage .. the ability too cater what damage type you like can often make up for any raw dps lost .. being immune too neuts is also very powerful.. they still track better than lasers so they fine on that score..

i think they have the most choice with ammo .. perhaps a 6 second reload timer might offer a nice useful buff.



No it doesnt when they are supposed to be used at range so consider first that you are only going to be doing half damage with autocannons.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#310 - 2014-12-27 03:44:35 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:


You say you know something about the game but can't even spell cynabal correctly.


Because spelling is an indication of skill at piloting...

See, this new argument of "but you are flying in gangs" is as old as the game. I had people using it on me several years ago with my blaster boats, before that it was on my retributions, also on bombers, recently the golem and someone said it about the phoenix recently. Its just as rubbish as in all those other cases. People saying that market data has no baring on how good ships are are also yammering tosh. The stabber is a pvp ship, it has little to no uses in pve so the fact that its selling just as well as the other "good" ships just tells us that its doing just fine.

This is just another one of those threads with a few loud, angry people looking for their easy mode back again.

Now as to why more range for a/c is not a great idea. Matari ships, for the most part, are faster then blaster boats, they can dictate range. If you give their weapons even more range then they can effectively out range blaster ships forever, this is exactly the problem people had before.


That whole upper half of your first paragraph you might want to rephrase, not very clear. Someone said something about a phoenix being good when in a gang? I'm confused, who is roaming in a gang with a phoenix? Then you said something about people telling you your blaster boats were good only when you were in a gang? Didn't blasters get buffed a couple years ago to the crazy levels they're at now? Is that your point? elaborate plz.

Market data has little weight, you know how many people fit stabbers as cheap salvagers? I made a stabber a cheap noctis out when i used to live in nullsec. And as the guy a couple posts above me said, he uses it in PVE, so your claim is already wrong. Stabbers are used because they're cheap and fast. They are good to sit noobs in and throw them like darts at an enemy.

I am not saying the stabber is bad, but the few good fights i see them in, you're brawling and relying on the small sig to survive, not the fall-off bonus and a/c's. They are also great killers of frigates, and that's it mostly. Why would i buy a vagabond when the stabber can do all the same things at a fraction of the cost?

Now to your last point, i find a bit amusing. I think you need to step out of your mega more often. Again, comparing vagabond and deimos, the deimos has more agility than vagabond. Meaning it can accelerate quicker, and catch the vagabond, plus it has a web to reach out at 13-18km to snag it, and reel it in. Meaning, its not hard at all for a deimos, or other blaster boats to slingshot a vagabond. Similar for thorax vs stabber.

The other thing you seem to be forgetting (stuck 2 years ago it appears) is that rails have been buffed, meaning, gallente fit more than blasters now. if you don't want to die to a/c's, don't fit blasters, you are using a CLOSE range weapon system, that means you don't get to shoot things at 25km. Just like people ***** and whine about adding webs to missiles to apply their damage. Your high dps comes at a trade-off, it can only be applied up close. You are acting like how you describe us, you're afraid of losing your own "I win" button with current gal meta. A/C is a medium range weapon system, and i don't ***** when a garm, cerb, orthus, rail deimos etc kill me. They brought the better counter. But when I can't fight at my intended weapon range because blasters, quite simply, do it better, then there is an obvious issue. Either nerf blasters, or buff a/c's.

Also, we are not just a few loud angry people, its all over the forums, and in EVE. People generally agree that a/c's are garbage, and heavy missiles are the very essence of sh**.

I'll even post the links to the threads for you, all of these have been made in the past few days to a week:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=393824&find=unread
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=393588
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=393686&find=unread
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#311 - 2014-12-27 06:57:51 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:


You say you know something about the game but can't even spell cynabal correctly.


Because spelling is an indication of skill at piloting...

See, this new argument of "but you are flying in gangs" is as old as the game. I had people using it on me several years ago with my blaster boats, before that it was on my retributions, also on bombers, recently the golem and someone said it about the phoenix recently. Its just as rubbish as in all those other cases. People saying that market data has no baring on how good ships are are also yammering tosh. The stabber is a pvp ship, it has little to no uses in pve so the fact that its selling just as well as the other "good" ships just tells us that its doing just fine.

This is just another one of those threads with a few loud, angry people looking for their easy mode back again.

Now as to why more range for a/c is not a great idea. Matari ships, for the most part, are faster then blaster boats, they can dictate range. If you give their weapons even more range then they can effectively out range blaster ships forever, this is exactly the problem people had before.


You obviously don't see the ship enough, otherwise you'd know how to spell it.

So yeah, you don't know much about the game.
Adrie Atticus
Circle Mercs
#312 - 2014-12-27 08:01:22 UTC
Cynabel
Golemm
Ravin
Staber
Phantom
Cunfessor
Nightmaer
Tengoo

I'm now officially incapable of even finding the undock button because spelling things incorrectly is a straight correlation on piloting skills. If I do one more typo I might lose the ability to even switch between ships as I cannot distinguish between an Atron and a Thanatos.

AC's are going to get some sort of a balance pass with the minnie T3 destroyer (at least I hope so), but is it going to proper it back to the same level as Scorch? Not sure. Does it need to be as good as Scorch giving you only the options of a short range ammo or maximum range ammo? No.
Daide Vondrichnov
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#313 - 2014-12-27 08:14:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Daide Vondrichnov
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Cynabel
Golemm
Ravin
Staber
Phantom
Cunfessor
Nightmaer
Tengoo

I'm now officially incapable of even finding the undock button because spelling things incorrectly is a straight correlation on piloting skills. If I do one more typo I might lose the ability to even switch between ships as I cannot distinguish between an Atron and a Thanatos.


No you're just a bastion, (jk off).

About numbers many ppl keep buying vagas / cyna because of their history and feel a touch of nostalgia when they are flying it, but actually that's all they are good about.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#314 - 2014-12-27 08:17:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Diesel47
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Cynabel
Golemm
Ravin
Staber
Phantom
Cunfessor
Nightmaer
Tengoo

I'm now officially incapable of even finding the undock button because spelling things incorrectly is a straight correlation on piloting skills. If I do one more typo I might lose the ability to even switch between ships as I cannot distinguish between an Atron and a Thanatos.

AC's are going to get some sort of a balance pass with the minnie T3 destroyer (at least I hope so), but is it going to proper it back to the same level as Scorch? Not sure. Does it need to be as good as Scorch giving you only the options of a short range ammo or maximum range ammo? No.


Who said anything about piloting skill? (Even then, the pilot has none. Only pvps in fleets of 100 or more.)

If you didn't know how to spell any of those ship names its a clear indication that you have low game knowledge.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#315 - 2014-12-27 10:11:20 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Stitch Kaneland wrote:


That whole upper half of your first paragraph you might want to rephrase, not very clear. Someone said something about a phoenix being good when in a gang? I'm confused, who is roaming in a gang with a phoenix? Then you said something about people telling you your blaster boats were good only when you were in a gang? Didn't blasters get buffed a couple years ago to the crazy levels they're at now? Is that your point? elaborate plz.


Its the same old sorry arguments that have been rehashed over and over for the last decade, these were all examples of times people have used that argument against me including when I was starting out with the Mega over the years.

Stitch Kaneland wrote:

Market data has little weight, you know how many people fit stabbers as cheap salvagers? I made a stabber a cheap noctis out when i used to live in nullsec. And as the guy a couple posts above me said, he uses it in PVE, so your claim is already wrong. Stabbers are used because they're cheap and fast. They are good to sit noobs in and throw them like darts at an enemy.


Not many fit stabbers as cheap salvagers, the cormorant is the go to cheap salvager. As for the guy who says it does see use, sure. In level 2-3 missions by a handful, hence why I said "next to no uses". The people using it number around the same as people blitzing level 3s in a mach. My point still stands, the stabber is first and formost a pvp boat with the vast bulk of sales coming from people who pvp with it.
Stitch Kaneland wrote:

I am not saying the stabber is bad, but the few good fights i see them in, you're brawling and relying on the small sig to survive, not the fall-off bonus and a/c's. They are also great killers of frigates, and that's it mostly. Why would i buy a vagabond when the stabber can do all the same things at a fraction of the cost?

Now to your last point, i find a bit amusing. I think you need to step out of your mega more often. Again, comparing vagabond and deimos, the deimos has more agility than vagabond. Meaning it can accelerate quicker, and catch the vagabond, plus it has a web to reach out at 13-18km to snag it, and reel it in. Meaning, its not hard at all for a deimos, or other blaster boats to slingshot a vagabond. Similar for thorax vs stabber.


You don't brawl in a stabber vs blasters, you use your range and use your speed advantage. Allowing a diemost to slingshot you is down to poor piloting not a/c. I also wonder why it is that you are always putting the vaga up against one of the best active tanking cruisers isk can buy? More realistically you will be facing something with a buffer fit in which case you can keep out of its web range, still have point on it and your speed allows you to kill it without entering in range with its blasters.

Stitch Kaneland wrote:

The other thing you seem to be forgetting (stuck 2 years ago it appears) is that rails have been buffed, meaning, gallente fit more than blasters now. if you don't want to die to a/c's, don't fit blasters, you are using a CLOSE range weapon system, that means you don't get to shoot things at 25km. Just like people ***** and whine about adding webs to missiles to apply their damage. Your high dps comes at a trade-off, it can only be applied up close. You are acting like how you describe us, you're afraid of losing your own "I win" button with current gal meta. A/C is a medium range weapon system, and i don't ***** when a garm, cerb, orthus, rail deimos etc kill me. They brought the better counter. But when I can't fight at my intended weapon range because blasters, quite simply, do it better, then there is an obvious issue. Either nerf blasters, or buff a/c's.

Also, we are not just a few loud angry people, its all over the forums, and in EVE. People generally agree that a/c's are garbage, and heavy missiles are the very essence of sh**.

I'll even post the links to the threads for you, all of these have been made in the past few days to a week:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=393824&find=unread
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=393588
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=393686&find=unread


Yes, you are a few loud angry people. There are vastly more anti-gank threads popping up daily some of which utterly dwarf this thread and they are considered a very small minority. This last paragraph shows us where the real problem is with you lot and a/c ships. You are flying them poorly.

See, you keep on saying blasters are out damaging you when you brawl with them to which there is only one question. Why are you trying to brawl with a blaster boat? Lets take a bog standard rupture and toss it at a rax. The rax will reach out to the edge of scram range using null, the rupture will reach out to just shy of long point range. So already, the rupture will out range the rax. Speed wise, again, the rupture wins hands down so it will maintain that range. Now slap on two TE on the rupture (which it can fit, unlike the armour tanking rax) and you have a range just past long point. With proper piloting the rax is facing an uphill battle. If the rax fits rails then its a simple case of getting in close, swapping to close range ammo and hammering away while you neut it.

The problem isn't with the ships or the weapons its the pilots. a/c are more complicated than they used to be and you have not adapted yet.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#316 - 2014-12-27 17:45:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
baltec1 wrote:


Its the same old sorry arguments that have been rehashed over and over for the last decade, these were all examples of times people have used that argument against me including when I was starting out with the Mega over the years.


Still doesn't make sense. I claimed originally that a/c's low dps/application is not as noticable in a gang, since you have other dps ships there. You come back with people said the same thing to you about your mega, since when is a mega's dps not noticable?

baltec1 wrote:

Not many fit stabbers as cheap salvagers, the cormorant is the go to cheap salvager. As for the guy who says it does see use, sure. In level 2-3 missions by a handful, hence why I said "next to no uses". The people using it number around the same as people blitzing level 3s in a mach. My point still stands, the stabber is first and formost a pvp boat with the vast bulk of sales coming from people who pvp with it.


Market data is not a method to determine how good a weapon system is at doing its job. It means people are buying ships, and may or may not be using them as discussed in this thread.

Since you keep ignoring the fact that blasters shoot into medium a/c engagement ranges (kiting, not brawling which you keep bringing up.. reading comprehension is hard, i know). This is not about if stabbers are selling. Stabbers can also fit rail guns, or be fit as cheap tackle where the person rams the other, which has nothing to do with the conversation of a fall-off increase. You can NOT judge how good a weapon system is based off ships being sold.

Which goes back to what i told you in the beginning. If every PVE person bought HML's and slapped em on a drake, the market would show a lot of heavy missile launchers being sold, but does that mean heavy missiles are good in PvP?

baltec1 wrote:

You don't brawl in a stabber vs blasters, you use your range and use your speed advantage. Allowing a diemost to slingshot you is down to poor piloting not a/c. I also wonder why it is that you are always putting the vaga up against one of the best active tanking cruisers isk can buy? More realistically you will be facing something with a buffer fit in which case you can keep out of its web range, still have point on it and your speed allows you to kill it without entering in range with its blasters.


No **** sherlock. If you actually READ what i wrote, i said the FEW times a stabber is good is when it relies on its small signature to sig/speed tank and brawl other ships down. Sometimes fit with a TD. At which point the selectable damage type and capless weapons are useful. In a kiting scenario though, the stabber shoots so little dps down field, its only use is anti-frigates. Yes, but what about on a gate jump? Deimos 14-15km away. You will not be able to get away due to agility.

I compare the two, because the deimos and vagabond are both HAC's with fall-off and rep bonuses plus similar speed. They are direct comparisons, like Muninn to Ishtar,eagle,zealot. Its common to come across a deimos while roaming. Are you drunk on all your roams? Or do you forget people roam more than just one area?

baltec1 wrote:

Yes, you are a few loud angry people. There are vastly more anti-gank threads popping up daily some of which utterly dwarf this thread and they are considered a very small minority. This last paragraph shows us where the real problem is with you lot and a/c ships. You are flying them poorly.

See, you keep on saying blasters are out damaging you when you brawl with them to which there is only one question. Why are you trying to brawl with a blaster boat? Lets take a bog standard rupture and toss it at a rax. The rax will reach out to the edge of scram range using null, the rupture will reach out to just shy of long point range. So already, the rupture will out range the rax. Speed wise, again, the rupture wins hands down so it will maintain that range. Now slap on two TE on the rupture (which it can fit, unlike the armour tanking rax) and you have a range just past long point. With proper piloting the rax is facing an uphill battle. If the rax fits rails then its a simple case of getting in close, swapping to close range ammo and hammering away while you neut it.

The problem isn't with the ships or the weapons its the pilots. a/c are more complicated than they used to be and you have not adapted yet.


You still don't get it, and haven't actually read what i've typed. I've never said anything about brawling in a/c's, only the one mention of the stabber fit that relies on its low sig to brawl. Everything else prior has been about kiting, and that the dps a/c's apply downrange is pathetic, and that blasters apply more dps at medium engagement ranges than a/c's do. FFS if you're going to try and argue, at least have your facts straight.

Actually no, thorax reaches out to about 15km with null (it has fall-off too). Now if you mean that null doesn't do much dps past its optimal, then welcome to fall-off and this entire conversation about auto cannons.

Also, a 425mm rupture with barrage shoots out to 19km, that is not kite range. Even if the person is at 18km, the dps you'll be applying is comparable to a T1 frigate (120ish dps). Also, you don't kite with a rupture, you brawl. So even if you're being kited at 19km, you won't be able to track him well with 425's + barrage, and the dps you might apply to him will not be enough to break his tank.

If, you had a shield rupture with 425's double TE vs a ion thorax, yes, then a/c's would probably work better than blasters at kiting. But what you also keep forgetting, is the rupture is slower and less agile than the thorax. The thorax could easily close the gap and scram/web and nuke a shield rupture. Or since gal can fit long range weapons, fit rails and kite insanely better than a/c's on a rupture (derp).
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#317 - 2014-12-27 18:38:46 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Stitch Kaneland wrote:


You still don't get it, and haven't actually read what i've typed. I've never said anything about brawling in a/c's, only the one mention of the stabber fit that relies on its low sig to brawl. Everything else prior has been about kiting, and that the dps a/c's apply downrange is pathetic, and that blasters apply more dps at medium engagement ranges than a/c's do. FFS if you're going to try and argue, at least have your facts straight.

Actually no, thorax reaches out to about 15km with null (it has fall-off too). Now if you mean that null doesn't do much dps past its optimal, then welcome to fall-off and this entire conversation about auto cannons.

Also, a 425mm rupture with barrage shoots out to 19km, that is not kite range. Even if the person is at 18km, the dps you'll be applying is comparable to a T1 frigate (120ish dps). Also, you don't kite with a rupture, you brawl. So even if you're being kited at 19km, you won't be able to track him well with 425's + barrage, and the dps you might apply to him will not be enough to break his tank.

If, you had a shield rupture with 425's double TE vs a ion thorax, yes, then a/c's would probably work better than blasters at kiting. But what you also keep forgetting, is the rupture is slower and less agile than the thorax. The thorax could easily close the gap and scram/web and nuke a shield rupture. Or since gal can fit long range weapons, fit rails and kite insanely better than a/c's on a rupture (derp).


Most rax go with AB or make sacrifices to get the mwd on. You are not going to be coming up against a rax with a full rack of neutrons, a mwd and a meaty tank. The bulk go for AB, so yes, you will most likely be faster, if you arn't then the rax will have gimped firepower and range or near no tank.

And yes, you can tell if a ship is popular or not via the markets because of the simple fact that people do not buy ships to not use them. I'm sorry but at this point you are going out of your way to try and make these ships unsuitable for you. CCP are not going to undo the balance just so you can have autos that can out range blasters completely. You are just going to have to adapt to the fact that blaster boats can now pose a risk to you.
Nodire Hermetz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#318 - 2014-12-27 19:14:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Nodire Hermetz
baltec , you're completely wrong , again

most thorax downgrade to Ion/Electron to fit with mwd and still Outdamage projectile weapon in their intended range with that null ammo
came here and saying "Yey , i kow everything in this game , all thorax fit ab , you're too bad , end of discuss ! nothing to see here!" only prove that you are arrogant and disrespecting with everyone here

Market don't show or prove if a ship are good or not , its , like intended to be , only a market indicator
if we follow you in this way , that will mean that the Vexor are better than the Ishtar because more people buy it , that's make non-sense
there is a way more 425mm railguns selling/buying than hull who can fit them if we check market activity , does it mean that 425mm are a superb weapon ?? no , traders/industralist make this conclusion , not the weapon himself

too see if a ship is good and/or popular you check one things first : Killboard
nothing else
to see if a ship are using in pvp , you check the killboard , that's make more sense than a market activity
you can't know if EACH Stabber selling are REALLY use ONLY for pvp , and you can't prove it
it can be a newbie who will make it a pve ship , it can be a trader who's making his stuff , it can be an other guy who use it for salvaging etc etc etc
And , you still not responding at what we asking since 10 post ago
WHY do yo think that giving 10-15% falloff to autocanons will make it OP and bringing back a FOTM ship ? (i think that orthrus/gila/ishtar are a way more powerfull than an actual vaga/stabber...)

explain us !!if you pretend to understand the game better than everyone here , let's go
God's Apples
Wilderness
lllllllllllllllll
#319 - 2014-12-27 19:31:11 UTC
Baltec, I'm still waiting for your ingenious, well thought out reply to my point 2 pages back.

"Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX

Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#320 - 2014-12-27 20:25:43 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

Most rax go with AB or make sacrifices to get the mwd on. You are not going to be coming up against a rax with a full rack of neutrons, a mwd and a meaty tank. The bulk go for AB, so yes, you will most likely be faster, if you arn't then the rax will have gimped firepower and range or near no tank.

And yes, you can tell if a ship is popular or not via the markets because of the simple fact that people do not buy ships to not use them. I'm sorry but at this point you are going out of your way to try and make these ships unsuitable for you. CCP are not going to undo the balance just so you can have autos that can out range blasters completely. You are just going to have to adapt to the fact that blaster boats can now pose a risk to you.


And you think people in ruptures/stabbers are all fitting 425's with 2 TE and 2 gyro? You assume the best out of a/c's, but then provide the worst for blasters? No, you don't seem bias at all.The current stabber meta right now is XLASB w/ 180mm a/c's, which project out to 20-22km if you're lucky. Great at nuking frigs, but doesn't have the EHP or dps to bring down a half way decently fit cruiser. Let alone a thorax with a web, or rails.

A/b's are In FW mostly, everywhere else its MWD's. Neutrons still fit with 1 MACR and medium rep and small cap booster w/ MWD. It is a bit tight, but is no different than a rupture with 425's and utility high used. You need a MACR to fit a medium neut, otherwise you lose that "neut and a/c combo" you mentioned. So not every a/c ship is fit like you claim. And that dps/fall-off from 425's is quite a bit different than 220's or 180's.

But you know what the thorax can do that the rupture can't? Fit long range weapons and project way past what a/c's and blasters can while kiting w/ a tank. I wouldn't care so much about a/c fall-off if i could fit artillery and use it as a long range weapon and a/c's as a skirmish/multi-role turret. But with current fitting requirements make this impossible or very niche` in use. Or, the ship's bonuses and speed don't work with artillery to make it viable. Yet its ok for 400dps thorax's to fly around at 2200 m/s with rails, but not a rupture doing 280dps with arty, without a tracking bonus. Stabber can't fit artillery. Not saying i want the rupture to be fast like the thorax, but its not good at much of anything. The thorax does it better either brawling or kiting. The same can be said in regards to vagabond/deimos.

Quote:
CCP are not going to undo the balance just so you can have autos that can out range blasters completely. You are just going to have to adapt to the fact that blaster boats can now pose a risk to you.


This, this is good. You are afraid of losing your OP blaster versatility. You realize that blasters are close range weapons right? How is that they can project similarly, on faster hulls, with similar tank, yet retain the title "close range".

blasters should be relegated to short ranges, and not be able to project much dps. That's your choice to fit blasters, especially when rails are really good right now. You should accept the consequences of your fit, and not expect them to be multi-role, which is what a/c are supposed to be. Thats why blasters have much higher dps, and a/c's have generally lower dps, but are more versatile. Blasters should only have a small window in which to apply dps (similar to rockets/HAMs). Right now blasters, rails and drones are overbuffed and causing power creep across the board, either buff a/c's and arty, or nerf blasters/drones and to a lesser extent, rails.

Your ignorance is starting to show, try again though cupcake.