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New approach to ECM: discrete targeting units
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Generaloberst Kluntz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2014-12-23 11:03:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Generaloberst Kluntz
ECM works as intended. Yes it's an all or nothing module and it's ok.
Yes you can't do anything when jammed but during a whole fail cycle the culprit is useless against you unless he stacks jams.
No jamming is not easy, staying on grid is not easy unless of course you're blobbing and still jamming in which case you're bad and you should feel bad.
So about the OP. A falcon can usually sport 4-6 jams. But many ships can lock more than 6 targets. You're cookie cutter Guardian can lock 10. With an auto targeting system it goes up to 12, losing a hi slot tho. So you'd need two falcons to jam one single Guardian, no thanks.
Sorry.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#22 - 2014-12-23 11:11:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Generaloberst Kluntz wrote:
ECM works as intended. Yes it's an all or nothing module and it's ok.
Yes you can't do anything when jammed but during a whole fail cycle the culprit is useless against you unless he stacks jams.
No jamming is not easy, staying on grid is not easy unless of course you're blobbing and still jamming in which case you're bad and shud feel bad.
Whacky complicated useless idea, sorry.



but i don't like using them and i don't want to fit ECCM because i may not wind up needing it so ECM needs to be changed or removed.

so i will come up with ideas that tend to make no sense or cause the module to be even stronger than it is.

At least damps make me feel like i can still get a lock if i get close enough and my guns still make flashy lights when i'm TD all to hell

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#23 - 2014-12-23 11:16:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Debora Tsung
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
sooo its still pretty much all or nothing since you only need one lock

No, you still have to reacquire targets. That can be crippling to a ship that has to keep re-starting the lock and spends most of their time trying to lock a target rather than actually shooting.
That would only happen to anything bigger than a battelcruiser. Everything else can get a lock fast enough so it won't really matter.

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Fifth Blade
Jump Drive Appreciation Society
#24 - 2014-12-23 11:18:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Fifth Blade
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
It's simple: when you activate an ECM jammer against a target, you jam each of their PTLs separately. If they have 5 total and you have a 60% jam chance, you'll likely jam 3/5 of their PTLs. These could be target locks already in use or not, really just depending on random chance.

You'd be better off just giving ECM a percentage chance to force them to lose 1 lock target for each jam (cycle time to be determined). No penalty for relocking, but it keeps them in a constant cycle of relocking targets, not being able to focus a primary, not being able to rep the right ship (but doesn't prevent all action)

Obviously those ships would need to be buffed (read: their tank) so they remain viable after such a weakening of ECM, but they would still have value (depending on the chance).

tl;dr

Tanky (poor target) ships which disrupt cohesive action >>> flimsy ships which disable all action. The former makes for interesting strategy and target calling choices, the latter is annoying to fly, and annoying to fight.
Generaloberst Kluntz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2014-12-23 11:20:47 UTC
Nobody likes to get ganked, scammed or robbed, still those are valid gameplay in eve. Because you can prevent being ganked or scammed or Corp robbed. And you can bring damps to shut down those pesky blackbirds. "Awww I don't like them" isn't valid argument because some players like them. I know i do.Roll
Zimmer Jones
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2014-12-23 18:16:04 UTC
I do like the idea, but I'm still supporting the small addition of multiple locks. you could split your guns that way so that you may get a few discrete points jammed but still supply some dps. a second lock on the same ship only, and a skill determined locking time penalty of no less than 1.75x normal

You get a faster re-lock, or a redundancy, like bracing for a hit you know is coming. The ecm could still knock out both chances of a lock, including the 2nd attempt underway, all that results from this is a chance to still deliver dps to a primary target. Like with tracking disruption and damping, a bit of forethought and ship flying/management should be able to cushion some effects, but not eliminate them.

Use the force without consent and the court wont acquit you even if you are a card carryin', robe wearin' Jedi.
Shakira Akira
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2014-12-23 18:34:49 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Lienzo wrote:
Seems like it would simpler to give all ships all four flavors of sensor strength, but require some points in magnetometric to lock gallente hulls (magnetometric signature). If jammed by magnetometric jammers, the pilot would then be reduced to the option of locking minmatar, amarr, caldari, or split-faction hulls.

That's not a bad idea. You could fit racial jammers to match your own fleet and not have to worry as much about their fleet composition when you don't even know who you'll be fighting.



And of course in warfare, its doesn't matter who you fight.

I'm sorry, but you shouldn't be able to "win" a fight without caring about the other sides fleet comp.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2014-12-23 22:07:04 UTC
Hopelesshobo wrote:
Ok, explain to me how this change fixes this flaw with ECM. It actually works this way right now, its possible to make a ship take over 20 seconds to lock someone back up after the ECM fails, which allows for another roll of the dice for the Falcon that's jamming. Your proposal doesn't change anything in this regard.
The existing ECM adds exactly 20 seconds to their lock time, regardless of everything else. My proposal has a lower chance of preventing locking for 20 seconds and a higher chance of breaking the lock at all.

Debora Tsung wrote:
That would only happen to anything bigger than a battelcruiser. Everything else can get a lock fast enough so it won't really matter.

That is highly situational. Even a battleship can lock a carrier within 5 seconds without any boosts, while even a sensor-boosted Claw will take over 5 seconds to lock a capsule with 2x fully bonused damps on it. Frigates don't lock frigates that much faster than battleships lock battleships, and frigates are much more vulnerable to ECM than battleships are.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2014-12-23 22:16:48 UTC
Shakira Akira wrote:
And of course in warfare, its doesn't matter who you fight.

I'm sorry, but you shouldn't be able to "win" a fight without caring about the other sides fleet comp.

You forum warriors love to spout off about how utterly important it is to know exactly what you're up against even before undocking, and how utterly complacent everyone is for admitting they don't know. Well realistically there will always be fights you didn't expect, usually the majority of them.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Generaloberst Kluntz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2014-12-23 22:53:55 UTC
OTOH if my fleet doesn't know even vaguely what's coming, the fight is generally expected to be lost before it begins.
-Sun Tzu
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#31 - 2014-12-23 22:59:05 UTC
Generaloberst Kluntz wrote:
OTOH if my fleet doesn't know even vaguely what's coming, the fight is generally expected to be lost before it begins.
-Sun Tzu


It's 2014. They are bringing Ishtars.Big smile

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2014-12-24 00:51:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
I've been in plenty of victories in which none of us knew what was coming before we undocked. This type of flying is rather common in nullsec and is called a "roam". Many roams involve heading into places which your people have poor intel on, and you really don't even know who you'll meet, much less what sort of doctrines they use.

I got on four killmails on a roam a month ago: a Cerberus, a Caracal, an Osprey, and a Tempest. A bit past a week ago I got on three more: a Keres, a Wolf, and the capsule of said Wolf. We met zero Ishtars, one Vexor, zero Dominixes, zero Myrmidons, and plenty of shield fit sniper ships much like what we were flying.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Generaloberst Kluntz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2014-12-24 00:58:53 UTC
OK.
Tusker Crazinski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2014-12-24 06:34:12 UTC
Not going to lie I find the the dice work with both ECM and guns bothersome. I'd rather falloff reduce your raw damage incrementally as opposed to hit chance for example baring angular and sig rad at optimal+falloff you are dealing half damage and same for tracking. Granted, while I personally don't like the dice work, it's not game breaking at all.

You've pretty Much hit the nail on the head on the issue with ECM. There is no real counter play or execution requirements on the user. It's either 100 percent effective or 0. and there's nothing either of the pilots involved can do out side of a fitting window to mitigate or increase it's effect.

however, you're proposed idea would just make it useless as opposed to the ECM in it's current state which is the only way a small gang can get though dual logi with less than 50k volley. or absurd DPS

Honestly I'd have it so if a jam exceeds your sensor strength it just will work, however all it'll do is break you locks at the END of a long cycle. {Cycles Stack} and the same jam cycle indicator on the target ship is present from cycle start.

that or have simply be a defensive mod the reduces your sig. kinda like a TD / scan rez damp hybrid.









Lugh Crow-Slave
#35 - 2014-12-24 07:24:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Tusker Crazinski wrote:
Not going to lie I find the the dice work with both ECM and guns bothersome. I'd rather falloff reduce your raw damage incrementally as opposed to hit chance for example baring angular and sig rad at optimal+falloff you are dealing half damage and same for tracking. Granted, while I personally don't like the dice work, it's not game breaking at all.

You've pretty Much hit the nail on the head on the issue with ECM. There is no real counter play or execution requirements on the user. It's either 100 percent effective or 0. and there's nothing either of the pilots involved can do out side of a fitting window to mitigate or increase it's effect.

however, you're proposed idea would just make it useless as opposed to the ECM in it's current state which is the only way a small gang can get though dual logi with less than 50k volley. or absurd DPS

Honestly I'd have it so if a jam exceeds your sensor strength it just will work, however all it'll do is break you locks at the END of a long cycle. {Cycles Stack} and the same jam cycle indicator on the target ship is present from cycle start.

that or have simply be a defensive mod the reduces your sig. kinda like a TD / scan rez damp hybrid.

so tell me outside of the fitting how do i counter a damp? or TD with a range script?

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2014-12-24 07:36:44 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
so tell me outside of the fitting how do i counter a damp? or TD with a range script?

Move closer to the target.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#37 - 2014-12-24 07:46:29 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
so tell me outside of the fitting how do i counter a damp? or TD with a range script?

Move closer to the target.


And then they swap to tracking speed scripts and start orbiting you. Also you are probably webbed.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2014-12-24 07:56:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Hopelesshobo wrote:
And then they swap to tracking speed scripts and start orbiting you. Also you are probably webbed.

Web them back, and paint them, and tracking disrupt them. Now you can both hit each other, but not well. Bring friends.

In the end, the one with more EWAR tends to get the upper hand, but the outcome of the battle is dependent on plenty of other factors, such as:

  • fleet composition
  • fleet size
  • timing
  • character skills
  • player skill
  • player luck
  • intel
  • how you approach the fight
  • morale
  • leadership
  • complacency

and many more...

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Lugh Crow-Slave
#39 - 2014-12-24 08:22:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Hopelesshobo wrote:
And then they swap to tracking speed scripts and start orbiting you. Also you are probably webbed.

Web them back, and paint them, and tracking disrupt them. Now you can both hit each other, but not well. Bring friends.

In the end, the one with more EWAR tends to get the upper hand, but the outcome of the battle is dependent on plenty of other factors, such as:

  • fleet composition
  • fleet size
  • timing
  • character skills
  • player skill
  • player luck
  • intel
  • how you approach the fight
  • morale
  • leadership
  • complacency

and many more...


Yes all of that is the same with ECM and webbing them back painting and trackin disrupting them are all things you would need to refit also if they are faster then you you can't get closer w/o a prop mod so tell me again how you are countering it with out a fitting to do so?


ECM doesn't require any more extra fitting than TDs or dams to counter however it does require more when fitting to use them and this is also not a bad thing. Sure there are a lot of ECM mods that are not needed and just add clutter but this is just because their are a lot of mods with no benefit over the others not because they have one type for each race and one general mod.

the choice you or your FC has to make when you pilot an ECM boat is a big one and can take a lot of experience to get down when you don't know the fleet comp you are going up against this gives ECM much more depth and room for error than other forms of Ewar.

not to mention the added level of piloting required of ECM as for when to jam how many jammes to use do you risk using it in falloff or do you wait for the target to get into your optimal. where as with other E-war its simply turn them all onto the desired pilots.



ECM is not over powered nor is it under powered but yes the fact that it has chance involved is different and can be frustrating on both ends of the jam but that's not bad it adds stress to a fight and a very large element of luck.

a lot of people don't often use ECM and certainly not as much as they use other forms of E-war since you need to have an ECM bonused ship to have a shot. this makes it so pilots only experience ECM when they are on the receiving end of it.


the all or noting nature is not what is not a problem with ECM it is what makes it different from the other forms of E-war and carries a high amount of risk with a powerful reward.

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2014-12-24 08:59:05 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Yes all of that is the same with ECM and webbing them back painting and trackin disrupting them are all things you would need to refit also if they are faster then you you can't get closer w/o a prop mod so tell me again how you are countering it with out a fitting to do so?

I've already explained it several times but you don't seem willing to listen. Put simply: player skill doesn't affect how long it takes for you to un-jam. Other EWAR gives you a lot more wiggle room in terms of potentially being able to do something to get past the EWAR. With ECM the only way past it is find a way to not have the effect get applied in the first place.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."