These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

If the PLEX can only be traded one time.

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Toad The Hitchhiker
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#61 - 2014-12-24 00:32:04 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
La Rynx wrote:

BS!
PLEX where created for the market. The use for speculation is expected and intended.


PLEX exists to make CCP money.

They need people to buy PLEX with RL $ that helps to fuel the company.
What happens from there on the market you would think would not matter.

However, you need people to buy them and use them at a good rate to keep the turn over going.

The prices were getting to a point that people just drop the extra accounts and that drops demand and from there that goes back to the $ that CCP want and by now probably need. **

It was probably a bonus but now PLEX is probably counted as a monthly and annual income used for general expenditure and paying salaries.

** which is precisely what some players are banking on. There is a group with a core that believe they win the game when CCP has to shut it down. So, they are doing all they can to buy up PLEX, drive other players out, increase their own players with the profit, extra PLEX and ruin the game.



THIS

Also, Plex in and of itself does not make CCP anything. International Accounting Standards would dictate that they hold every single Plex sold that is not consumed in the game as a liability equal to the unrealized value of the sale. Therefore Plex is worthless to CCP as the liability it holds is equal to the amount you bought it for before it is used for game time.

There is nothing magical about plex, it is a voucher for game time, and one that might one day be worth half, twice as much, nothing. Right now all Plex should be worth 30% less than last week, because I can buy one for IRL monies for 30% less.

Also as I said before, Plex is the most secretive thing in the game. CCP won't release info on how many are destroyed, trapped in banned accounts, sitting in inactive accounts or IF any were ever seeded during times of low supply.
Francis Inch
Kador Defence Initiative
#62 - 2014-12-24 00:56:41 UTC

PLEX cannot be easily equated to RMT as you cannot cash out. It's like the free bonus gambling sites give out - you can't spend it anywhere else. Yes the person buying PLEX may not be paying a subscription fee, but all that means is that someone else is.

At best it allows someone to play for free, if, and only if, they are effectively willing to provide an in game service. (ie earning isk) to another player.

That's not profiting out of CCP, its not selling something to get rich. What it is, is this....

...it's spending part of their play time doing nothing more than being someone else's isk grinding alt account.

If I sell you a PLEX it's just making you my mining/plexing/trading biatch while I go have more fun.

The same number of accounts are owned, the same money (or more since they cost more than a sub) goes to CCP.


Sure, it makes the game free to play effectively, if you're willing to sacrifice the time and isk. But ultimately all it comes down to is time put in.

PLEX values reflect the value players put on time. If they're high its because either time is cheap or that it doesn't take long to earn isk. In that respect the issue with price is not PLEX but how easy it is to earn insane levels of isk now.

Bare in mind those of us from 2003 remember tritanium prices below 1 isk, maximum rat bounties being cruiser sized and modules being all Tech 1 and no battleships. Is it any wonder prices are inflated in a world of ratting carriers, hulks, orcas, moon mining and wormhole sleeper loot?
Toad The Hitchhiker
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#63 - 2014-12-24 01:04:30 UTC
Francis Inch wrote:

All good points



I think what some of us were trying to say is that Plex can have a negative impact on the number of accounts in the game. If it becomes too expensive using in game methods to purchase then I won't have an alt.

CCP has complete control over plex though, from the price you pay IRL to the amount of content creating inflation is injected to giving Plex for alt accounts, gifts, sales, lotteries. CCP could stop accepting plex for RL services, driving down demand, or they could cut the cost of Plex because the game is aging and losing subs.

They just banned programs that has an obvious and immediate effect on the number of accounts were in the game as alts. We can see that in the character bazaar today, so people are selling off their 10 accounts, keeping 2 and instead of CCP having 22 accounts in the game, there is only 12. (example).

I don't think plex should be traded in game, or if it is it should be on a global market that isn't tied to physical location and plex should never be moved. The idea that someone can "blow up" game time is ludicrous.
Leia Stellate
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#64 - 2014-12-24 01:19:20 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:
I know it's an unpopular stance but I agree with the OP, although I'm not sure making Plex tradable once is the only possible solution. Plex aren't a purely ingame item the way that ships or mods are, and I think player speculation and profiteering needs to be decoupled from impacting subs. It's not about stopping the players who sell plex from profiting due to ingame inflation, it's more about minimising the ability of speculators to manipulate the market to a degree that it affects retention rates. If you don't care about retention rates in the slightest, don't bother reading the rest.

I've seen a lot of remarks that people who can't afford to play have their priorities wrong and should sort their lives out. It strikes me as a massively hypocritical attitude when on the same forum people encourage each other to "Broadcast for Reps" if they are feeling suicidal. Spend some time talking to players ingame and you'll find a % who are unemployed (made redundant or struggling due to their local economy), or students*, or suffering from a host of real life issues. They might be playing Eve as an outlet or as their main hobby. A lot have been suckered into running multiple accounts, which is not £10/$10 a month, so stop trotting that out. When they start seeing Plex prices spike it just adds to a spiral of misery they are already in. I find the attitude of "well, tough luck" from some of the forum shitbirds disgusting tbh in this context. You'd have to be a complete ******** to actually say this to someone ingame who is already down and is getting worked up over not having the time to grind to keep their accounts up. Fair enough, some people are whiners, but some are genuinely struggling. There's no counter argument when they threaten to quit and go play something cheaper that isn't such a massive timesink, and I personally resent seeing people I like unsub over this.

Something that might be more dynamic would be to set a timer on a Plex from the moment it is issued ingame (say 90 days). That way they can still be traded, but as the timer degrades it becomes more pressing to get them sold. Allowing a few greedy gits to affect so many is not healthy for the wider playerbase and needs to be curbed.

* Not talking about myself here, I stay subbed via passive ISK generation. But not everyone can be taught (or wants to learn) and if I was forced to PVE-grind to stay subbed, I'd probably be bawwing too.


Yeah that's what i want to say. Whatever 90days timer or can only be traded once. This is just an idea through the rising price of PLEX, I'm not a PLEX seller or RMTer. And I can afford the PLEX ingame right now, and it's not difficult to me in fact. This is just a simple idea of how to control the rising rate of PLEX price, and that's all.
Francis Inch
Kador Defence Initiative
#65 - 2014-12-24 01:23:36 UTC
Toad The Hitchhiker wrote:
Francis Inch wrote:

All good points



I think what some of us were trying to say is that Plex can have a negative impact on the number of accounts in the game. If it becomes too expensive using in game methods to purchase then I won't have an alt.

CCP has complete control over plex though, from the price you pay IRL to the amount of content creating inflation is injected to giving Plex for alt accounts, gifts, sales, lotteries. CCP could stop accepting plex for RL services, driving down demand, or they could cut the cost of Plex because the game is aging and losing subs.

They just banned programs that has an obvious and immediate effect on the number of accounts were in the game as alts. We can see that in the character bazaar today, so people are selling off their 10 accounts, keeping 2 and instead of CCP having 22 accounts in the game, there is only 12. (example).

I don't think plex should be traded in game, or if it is it should be on a global market that isn't tied to physical location and plex should never be moved. The idea that someone can "blow up" game time is ludicrous.


I can see the argument to degree, but.

1. EVE is not free to play and never has been.
2. Subscriptions and services are both cheaper through other payment methods than PLEX, alt account discounts even more so, no one is forced to PLEX.
3. No one knows how many subscriptions there are, or how many PLEX are actually redeemed - concurrent users may be down but this is not proven to correlate due to lack of data. Indeed anecdotal evidence suggests veterans continue to subscribe to train skills even as their activity levels fluctuate, so it may be this could actually be growing.
4. While we can discuss the ISboxer impact, the reality is CCP do have this data to hand and have made the business decision that they believe the game will benefit in the long-term from this change, so really, it's their income not mine and there's plenty of history to show EVE will continue just fine.
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#66 - 2014-12-24 01:34:58 UTC
CCP doesn't get involved = Rabble rabble CCP Y R U NO FIX ECONOMY??!!!?

CCP manipulates market = DAM U CCP STAY OUT IV PLAYR DRIVEN ECONOMY!!!1!1!1!1!one

Batman is killed = Problem solved.

Pretty sure we all know what we have to do at this point.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Paranoid Loyd
#67 - 2014-12-24 01:42:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
Pretty sure we all know what we have to do at this point.

Keep whining and forming opinions when we don't have nearly enough information to have an informed opinion or kill the batman? Welp, we all know we are risk adverse neckbeards so I guess we'll just stick with the former.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Toad The Hitchhiker
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#68 - 2014-12-24 01:45:07 UTC
Francis Inch wrote:
Toad The Hitchhiker wrote:
Francis Inch wrote:

All good points



I think what some of us were trying to say is that Plex can have a negative impact on the number of accounts in the game. If it becomes too expensive using in game methods to purchase then I won't have an alt.

CCP has complete control over plex though, from the price you pay IRL to the amount of content creating inflation is injected to giving Plex for alt accounts, gifts, sales, lotteries. CCP could stop accepting plex for RL services, driving down demand, or they could cut the cost of Plex because the game is aging and losing subs.

They just banned programs that has an obvious and immediate effect on the number of accounts were in the game as alts. We can see that in the character bazaar today, so people are selling off their 10 accounts, keeping 2 and instead of CCP having 22 accounts in the game, there is only 12. (example).

I don't think plex should be traded in game, or if it is it should be on a global market that isn't tied to physical location and plex should never be moved. The idea that someone can "blow up" game time is ludicrous.


I can see the argument to degree, but.

1. EVE is not free to play and never has been.
2. Subscriptions and services are both cheaper through other payment methods than PLEX, alt account discounts even more so, no one is forced to PLEX.
3. No one knows how many subscriptions there are, or how many PLEX are actually redeemed - concurrent users may be down but this is not proven to correlate due to lack of data. Indeed anecdotal evidence suggests veterans continue to subscribe to train skills even as their activity levels fluctuate, so it may be this could actually be growing.
4. While we can discuss the ISboxer impact, the reality is CCP do have this data to hand and have made the business decision that they believe the game will benefit in the long-term from this change, so really, it's their income not mine and there's plenty of history to show EVE will continue just fine.


1) Eve is not free, hence the point about the more expensive your subscription medium the less accounts. For those who pay others with isk to buy plex for them with cash, the price fluctuations can have serious impact on number of alts.
2) No one is forced to plex unless you have the skills and time to substitute real life cash for in game time and effort.
3) We know how many new accounts are created, we know how many accounts log in and we know how many Plex are SOLD. We don't know actual inactive accounts, plex immediately consumed at purchase or plex destroyed through services, pvp or banned accounts.
4) CCP does not have number on how many isboxer accounts there are, they can guess, can run a metric and see what accounts fit said metric, but they have no better a way of determining isboxer accounts and actual account loss than anyone else.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#69 - 2014-12-24 03:03:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Francis Inch wrote:
If I sell you a PLEX it's just making you my mining/plexing/trading biatch while I go have more fun.

This is such a ridiculously subjective post that it isn't even funny.

A can afford 1 account but wants two.
B can afford 3 accounts and 2 PLEX, doesn't want to play 4 accounts as it is juggling too many chainsaws.

B sells PLEX x2 to A

CCP gains PLEX x2 in $.

If the facility were not there; B would not spend that money, nor would A. Roll

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Serene Repose
#70 - 2014-12-24 03:32:48 UTC
War Kitten wrote:
I think the biggest failure of your idea is that you think a random limitation is better than simple supply and demand that we have now....
This seems so simple in its logic, it's akin to common sense! However, it's just not true. It's no more true in EVE than it is in the mythological "supply and demand" discipline of the real world markets. Why?

Both economies have the same problem. Both print money without any functional consideration in terms of how it effects an economy. The single most significant reason prices go up is - prices don't go up. The currency is losing its value, so it takes more of it to equal out. We call that INFLATION, and we used to call it HYPER-INFLATION till that started scaring Ma and Pa Kettle in Yuckapuck, Iowa.

How the PLEX enters the economy, the position it has in the economy, and the hands through which PLEX flow make it a specialized item regardless of the mythology involved. Projectile ammunition is a more significant commodity to focus attention on, but to do that one would have to have (and use) the skills of an actual economist. And, of course, we know forums are here to make us seem smart - not so we can really BE smart.

It's a matter of the ratio between ISK sink to ISK faucet. It's not a matter of how PLEX is handled in the game. Get control of the runaway inflation first, then we can discuss using real money to print fake money in a video game.

We must accommodate the idiocracy.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#71 - 2014-12-24 03:42:38 UTC
Serene Repose wrote:
It's a matter of the ratio between ISK sink to ISK faucet.


When the ISK faucet is gushing the veteran players get out their buckets, barrels and resevoirs.
When the ISK sinks are greater or the faucets are turned down, the new players come into an inflated market they can't afford.

So, here comes your problem:

How do you ISK sink the veterans without harming the newbies?

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Toad The Hitchhiker
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#72 - 2014-12-24 04:35:37 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Serene Repose wrote:
It's a matter of the ratio between ISK sink to ISK faucet.


When the ISK faucet is gushing the veteran players get out their buckets, barrels and resevoirs.
When the ISK sinks are greater or the faucets are turned down, the new players come into an inflated market they can't afford.

So, here comes your problem:

How do you ISK sink the veterans without harming the newbies?


Create artificial demand for Plex... and that is why CCP lets you character transfer, fly to iceland and all of that with PLEX, while at the same time they do power of 2 and 3 month half off new accounts. They want newbies to come in with a credit card, and get a heads up in the game by selling plex to us old farts.

Problem is, newbies don't stay, old farts aren't really old they are just recycled names and skill points and at some point in time the inflation of the game hurt the newbies worse than expected. Couple that with a gross underestimation of the multibox crowd's willingness to leave the game and you have falling sub numbers, a confused plex market and newbies who won't stay past an interceptor.
Cancel Align NOW
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#73 - 2014-12-24 05:25:09 UTC
Toad The Hitchhiker wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Serene Repose wrote:
It's a matter of the ratio between ISK sink to ISK faucet.


When the ISK faucet is gushing the veteran players get out their buckets, barrels and resevoirs.
When the ISK sinks are greater or the faucets are turned down, the new players come into an inflated market they can't afford.

So, here comes your problem:

How do you ISK sink the veterans without harming the newbies?


Create artificial demand for Plex... and that is why CCP lets you character transfer, fly to iceland and all of that with PLEX, while at the same time they do power of 2 and 3 month half off new accounts. They want newbies to come in with a credit card, and get a heads up in the game by selling plex to us old farts.

Problem is, newbies don't stay, old farts aren't really old they are just recycled names and skill points and at some point in time the inflation of the game hurt the newbies worse than expected. Couple that with a gross underestimation of the multibox crowd's willingness to leave the game and you have falling sub numbers, a confused plex market and newbies who won't stay past an interceptor.


If throw a handful of sand at the ground and draw lines between each grain I can create any picture I want.
Cancel Align NOW
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#74 - 2014-12-24 05:31:32 UTC
In reply to the OP; I like the idea as I like stability. I however would be afraid of the implications of its inroduction and when ever an over riding force is placed on a market the market attempts to find a way to compensate.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#75 - 2014-12-24 06:33:07 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Lucas Kell wrote:
Next year they will be breaking the 1b mark.

No they won't. There are many individuals with thousands of plex stockpiled, and a great many more with hundreds of plex. And all of them want to sell at a maximum. That's why plex crashed harder than ever in December - it dropped by nearly 200 million in less than a month. For those paying attention that is the real record, not the fact that plex failed to hit a billion isk.

What December showed us is that the eve market on TQ cannot support plex at a billion isk with all of those lovely hoarders wanting to cash in on their "investment" (lol).

The downside to this is that everyone knows exactly when to cash out the next time around, then again anyone with half a dose of common sense knew that already. Meh.
Kiandoshia
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#76 - 2014-12-24 07:06:10 UTC
Daemun Khanid wrote:
I hate to post in a plex thread but...

It's like saying lets stop drilling for oil to lower the price of gas.



You mean stop buying the oil that is being drilled to keep it in big tanks to sell whenever you need the money?
ggodhsup
relocation LLC.
#77 - 2014-12-24 07:23:32 UTC  |  Edited by: ggodhsup
then i would buy it, trade it, and buy what i wanted.(which is why i did it in the first place).Pirate

speculation is speculation. i was an econ student....your logic is grossly flawed. even with a background in agricultural econ i have one up on you.

your theory is just stupid.....take a few classes and learn the things that make the "RL" world go round.....then i will give your eve speculation some ground.

until then. refrain from posting please.

EDIT: im the guy that plex's every isk he uses. im familiar with the market and know what my dollar is worth. i will continue to plex as long as i can.

even more so, i will continue to be above average based on my isk per SP ratio. also i have 2 accnts. so i just win based on that right?

plex not being a commodity is just bad for the game.....period.....stop your crusade.....pay to play is for the guys that can do it.
Areen Sassel
Dirac Angestun Gesept
#78 - 2014-12-24 07:47:56 UTC
Leia Stellate wrote:
Maybe it could stop the rising price of PLEX. I think the biggest failure of the design of EVE Online is that PLEX can be traded unlimited, this makes PLEX has unparalleled speculation value


What rising price? The bubble burst; the interesting question is when the drop will be arrested and the price climb again. As far as I can see it, the only failure was that I wanted to short PLEX in November and there isn't really a good way to do that.
ggodhsup
relocation LLC.
#79 - 2014-12-24 07:54:25 UTC  |  Edited by: ggodhsup
Areen Sassel wrote:
Leia Stellate wrote:
Maybe it could stop the rising price of PLEX. I think the biggest failure of the design of EVE Online is that PLEX can be traded unlimited, this makes PLEX has unparalleled speculation value


What rising price? The bubble burst; the interesting question is when the drop will be arrested and the price climb again. As far as I can see it, the only failure was that I wanted to short PLEX in November and there isn't really a good way to do that.


i still have plex ready for sale.

they will go back up....

i will sell....

i will make isk....

speculation is speculation.

gnight.

EDIT: o/
Areen Sassel
Dirac Angestun Gesept
#80 - 2014-12-24 08:02:22 UTC
ggodhsup wrote:
Areen Sassel wrote:
Leia Stellate wrote:
Maybe it could stop the rising price of PLEX. I think the biggest failure of the design of EVE Online is that PLEX can be traded unlimited, this makes PLEX has unparalleled speculation value

What rising price? The bubble burst; the interesting question is when the drop will be arrested and the price climb again. As far as I can see it, the only failure was that I wanted to short PLEX in November and there isn't really a good way to do that.

i still have plex ready for sale.


I daresay a great many people do, but I don't see why you're quoting me before mentioning it.