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Module Tiercide and Proteus
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Paynus Maiassus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2014-12-20 07:14:55 UTC
Well, compared to Rhea and Phoebe, it looks like Proteus is going to be a 'little' expansion. All is well. Everybody deserves a Christmas and CCP has been full thruster overdrive. Exequror and the asteroid belts look incredible, though.

I have to admit that after all the awesome of Rhea I was a little scared not to see any modules rebalanced at all, and I had hoped that the furious pace of development had not caused the module balancing project to fall by the wayside. I'm totally stoked to see the new module groups. I was totally impressed with the first run. This one is sure to be great.

Just to let the devs know, in my experience the groups that are fantastically jacked up are the ones where the metas are better than the T2s, for example the energy neutralizers and ECM modules definitely, and in some cases the remote repair modules.

I noticed none of those groups were in this batch. I think if some of these really high profile jacked up modules get rebalanced sooner, people will feel the positive effects more and appreciate the project more.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#2 - 2014-12-20 14:17:46 UTC
case of ecm mods only people who will benefit are the inventors/t2 bpo owners and the moon goo barons. And with the changes to research and manufacturing....well I can invent these myself for private stocks so its only the moon goo barons who make out. I finally have found something from the removal of importance of ME in this area that is actually good when this happens lol.

The benefits of best named ecm are not that great tbh. Caps use of meta over t2 not an omfg bene in all honesty. Only jam boat I ever had cap issues on was my scorpion...and that was because I ran RR in utility highs. Cap boosters fixed that.

Nor is fitting, my jam boats slap on t2 just as readily. They did when I wasn't even maxed fitting skills.

All this probably why ccp has not touched ecm. Looking at gravimetric....BZ-5 has a nice recipe for sales success. Remove either lower cap or lower fitting to put elsewhere....and that market is going to not be so good anymore. Especially if price changes and goes up. Price would be BZ-5's (and other best named) main appeal to me.
Paynus Maiassus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2014-12-22 19:14:20 UTC
Yes well as a manufacturer and inventor I would be one of those who would benefit. And you, as a PvPer with the ability to build your own stocks also benefit.

Neither you nor I are moon goo barons, but I think benefitting the moon goo barons is actually good. With Phoebe and the coming changes to sov there should be more moon goo barons in the future than currently, and this will benefit the income of smaller null entities that cannot maintain a rental empire for their income.

All together I see these as significant benefits to the right parties. Taken together they are much more beneficial than four nice pieces of loot for ratters.

In addition to the concrete benefits, though, players like things to be logical and make sense. CCP already knows this and has already stated an intent to ensure that all T2 modules be better than all T1 meta modules. It ends up contributing to the new player experience. So CCP already knows this and already has stated what they will do: ensure that all T2 modules are better than T1 metas. My post was just an encouragement for them to push the high profile instances of where this is the case up to the next release.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#4 - 2014-12-22 19:16:21 UTC
The coming changes are massive to me.
Paynus Maiassus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2014-12-22 19:20:28 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
The coming changes are massive to me.


Well, yeah, after I wrote that post I did some reflection about the recon changes that didn't initially strike me because I haven't done much reconning with my recon pilot lately. So yes, I stand corrected. Proteus is pretty massive. However, the statement about Proteus being a smaller expansion was just an introductory sentence/paragraph. The post was about the module project, my pleasure that it is continuing, and a wish that some notoriously illogical modules get addressed sooner rather than later.

So yeah, you're right. It's pretty massive in some ways. But still, the point of my post stands.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#6 - 2014-12-22 19:24:37 UTC
Its not the recon changes that is getting me all itchy its the list of modules.
Paynus Maiassus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2014-12-22 19:27:08 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Its not the recon changes that is getting me all itchy its the list of modules.


Oh sure. I'm stoked about them too. Just still hoping they put neuts and ECM on the next list.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#8 - 2014-12-22 19:31:18 UTC
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Its not the recon changes that is getting me all itchy its the list of modules.


Oh sure. I'm stoked about them too. Just still hoping they put neuts and ECM on the next list.


i just hope that they do capacitor batteries when they do neuts

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Paynus Maiassus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2014-12-22 19:32:42 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Its not the recon changes that is getting me all itchy its the list of modules.


Oh sure. I'm stoked about them too. Just still hoping they put neuts and ECM on the next list.


i just hope that they do capacitor batteries when they do neuts


True that. That's a group that seriously need love.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#10 - 2014-12-22 23:19:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Paynus Maiassus wrote:

In addition to the concrete benefits, though, players like things to be logical and make sense. CCP already knows this and has already stated an intent to ensure that all T2 modules be better than all T1 meta modules. It ends up contributing to the new player experience. So CCP already knows this and already has stated what they will do: ensure that all T2 modules are better than T1 metas. My post was just an encouragement for them to push the high profile instances of where this is the case up to the next release.



They are doing the low profiles first it seems as tests imo. Best to start with what won't be too much concern. ECM will be contentious among other high profile mods.

I'd be looking at tackle mods as well. I am not liking the day metacide hits these as I didn't have t2 must be better ocd. I will have some tight fits that will go away. In this area ccp I think has to address the concern of bitter vs noob disparity. When metacide hits these....I already have my fitting skills maxed. If a weapons rig is fit, I am rig skills 4. training 5 not a hardship for me. End result is I can free up fitting grid more readily than a noob can.

When ccp hits these ccp has to have balance concerns here the take away as it's going to be a case of malcanis' law. A change that benefits noobs unable/unwilling to research mod stats in a fitting tool will benefit bitters who can fit the now better t2 easier more. No skin off my nose as a jaded 6 year player....I like theory crafting in eft/pyfa (I use eft on work puter and pyfa at home on my MacBook pro) to shoehorn in everything I possibly can. Noobs who didn't like doing this under current scheme worst case may suffer more when metacide hits lacking this desire to eft if only to kill time.
Paynus Maiassus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2014-12-23 00:05:11 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:
Paynus Maiassus wrote:

In addition to the concrete benefits, though, players like things to be logical and make sense. CCP already knows this and has already stated an intent to ensure that all T2 modules be better than all T1 meta modules. It ends up contributing to the new player experience. So CCP already knows this and already has stated what they will do: ensure that all T2 modules are better than T1 metas. My post was just an encouragement for them to push the high profile instances of where this is the case up to the next release.



They are doing the low profiles first it seems as tests imo. Best to start with what won't be too much concern. ECM will be contentious among other high profile mods.

I'd be looking at tackle mods as well. I am not liking the day metacide hits these as I didn't have t2 must be better ocd. I will have some tight fits that will go away. In this area ccp I think has to address the concern of bitter vs noob disparity. When metacide hits these....I already have my fitting skills maxed. If a weapons rig is fit, I am rig skills 4. training 5 not a hardship for me. End result is I can free up fitting grid more readily than a noob can.

When ccp hits these ccp has to have balance concerns here the take away as it's going to be a case of malcanis' law. A change that benefits noobs unable/unwilling to research mod stats in a fitting tool will benefit bitters who can fit the now better t2 easier more. No skin off my nose as a jaded 6 year player....I like theory crafting in eft/pyfa (I use eft on work puter and pyfa at home on my MacBook pro) to shoehorn in everything I possibly can. Noobs who didn't like doing this under current scheme worst case may suffer more when metacide hits lacking this desire to eft if only to kill time.


Well, this is a valid point but not exceedingly critical. In some cases, the meta will stay the same in effectiveness, but the T2 will receive a buff. So we see some of the rebalancing that is pure buff. In other cases we see the T2 staying the same with the meta getting a nerf. However, although there is a nerf you see a consistent variety. For instance it's hard to say that noobs will lose out for lack of fitting skills since all the new modules will have a 'compact' version made for easy fitting.

In the end, both you and the noob may have some changes in effectiveness, such as a tackle mod with a 26 km range instead of a 27 km range. This type of stuff won't break the game. In many cases you'll wind up with a 28 km range when you had a 27. And in still other cases you'll have a 27 km range you couldn't fit before. The first group made people overall happy.

Did you find a bunch of fits ruined with the last batch? Were there no alterations that were just as good, or just slightly different, or even better?
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#12 - 2014-12-23 02:33:38 UTC
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
[Did you find a bunch of fits ruined with the last batch? Were there no alterations that were just as good, or just slightly different, or even better?



funny you mention that. CCP fixed a few cap mods iirc that helped make travel fitting caps cheaper to recover capacitor faster between hops. Some iirc replaced the need for bling mods even to make cap less of an issue for follow up jumps coming sooner.

But then you know...jump fatigue. So faster cap regen kind of lost its bene as the fatigue should cover any cap regen times and then some lol.