These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Sleeper and Circadian Seeker Technological Differences

Author
Deceiver's Echo
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#1 - 2014-12-19 04:13:27 UTC
I was looking at the Sleeper drones in Eram when I had an odd realization:

1. The Circadian Seekers are unarmed.
2. The Circadian Seekers replace their number if destroyed.
3. The Circadian Seekers do in fact seem to be "seeking" something.

This is in contrast to Sleeper drones in W-space:

1. They are armed.
2. They will reinforce their number until they are obviously overpowered.
3. Instead of seeking they are defending.

To me this speaks to one possible explanation; these are the product of two separate societies.

The Sleeper drones in W-space point to certain technological similarities with the Jovians, and indeed their structures seem to be built along Jovian philosophical ideals (SEE ALSO: Society of Conscious Thought, Kitz). It is theoretically possible that the Sleeper structures found in W-space are in fact Jovian in origin, and the evidence points to this.

The Circadian Seekers on the other hand show technological similarity but not design parity. Differences in defensive capabilities along with a lack of offensive capabilities speak to a very different philosophical perspective. It also does not match Talocan or Sansha design standards.

It is possible that the Circadian Sleepers are based on Sleeper design. They are not made with similar materials. Three possibilities present themselves:

1. These are "W-Space Sleeper" in origin but are made with local materials due to lack of Fullerene sources in New Eden.
2. They are based on Sleeper designs but made locally by non-Sleepers.
3. These are original Sleeper designs, used as a basis for later variants (such as W-Space Sleeper hull designs).

Additionally, both drone types show similar "emergent" system design. Navigation, sensors and possibly communications are separate, allowing for advanced analysis but not allowing for true "A.I.".

I believe a full analysis of W-space Sleepers, Talocan, Sansha and "Rogue Drone" technology must be undertaken to determine similarities, differences, and parity in design. In short, I believe that we have been looking at this situation from the wrong perspective. If there is a source of technology that these various groups have in common, we may be able to determine more about not just Caroline's Star but about the entire Cluster itself.

"When attempting to deceive,
Give a false first impression;
It keeps the target guessing,
Allows you to mask your motives."

-"The Unknown Poet"
Saede Riordan
Alexylva Paradox
#2 - 2014-12-19 04:37:00 UTC
Quote:
1. The Circadian Seekers are unarmed.



This is incorrect. While the Circadian Seekers have not been documented using weapons, they are at the very least carrying some manner of missile launcher, visible on the outside of the hull.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2014-12-19 04:50:27 UTC
I also do not believe that these Circadian Seekers are a product of a separate societies. Remember, these are drones, and drones operate on directives. Sleeper drones in W-space are programmed to defend Sleeper properties and to repel invaders. The Circadian Seekers, on the other hand, are program to 'seek', for what we have yet to know.

However, it is likely that the Circadian Seekers and the cloaked structures might actually had been left behind in K-space while the rest of the Sleepers made the exodus into W-space. The reason why, we can only guess. I believe that there is a great likelihood that they were here to begin with. We only manage to detect now because of a malfunction in their cloaking system, rendering them less than perfect in concealing their presence.

They were always here, watching, seeking, studying. For what reason, we can only guess.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Jaret Victorian
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#4 - 2014-12-19 06:05:19 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
I also do not believe that these Circadian Seekers are a product of a separate societies. Remember, these are drones, and drones operate on directives. Sleeper drones in W-space are programmed to defend Sleeper properties and to repel invaders. The Circadian Seekers, on the other hand, are program to 'seek', for what we have yet to know.

However, it is likely that the Circadian Seekers and the cloaked structures might actually had been left behind in K-space while the rest of the Sleepers made the exodus into W-space. The reason why, we can only guess. I believe that there is a great likelihood that they were here to begin with. We only manage to detect now because of a malfunction in their cloaking system, rendering them less than perfect in concealing their presence.

They were always here, watching, seeking, studying. For what reason, we can only guess.

Yes, what if they were there all along and we simply didn't notice because of our inferior technology? Now these drones, unaware of their disclosure because it was simply not a part of their program, continue to do their work. What else are we not noticing?
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#5 - 2014-12-19 06:12:56 UTC
Saede Riordan wrote:
Quote:
1. The Circadian Seekers are unarmed.



This is incorrect. While the Circadian Seekers have not been documented using weapons, they are at the very least carrying some manner of missile launcher, visible on the outside of the hull.

Are we sure that this is indeed a missile launcher and not a scan probe launcher? With as many times as they have been shot at and never counter agressed, it seems that it would be a waste of resources to equip such a system only to never use it.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Luna Hanaya
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2014-12-19 07:42:31 UTC
It doesn't mean they are made in different society. Probably just drones with different functions. Like we have mining drones, salvaging drones and combat drones.

What is important, their combat drones stay in their sites and systems, defending their property, and to our system they come unarmed. Unlike us, who broke to them and started harvesting them for component materials.

Thinking about it, it draws us monsters and them angels. Maybe they are closer to God than we are?

((

If you are a roleplayer, please join official CCP channels ingame for roleplayers and support roleplaying community:

Intergalactic Summit - IC router

Out of Character - channel for discussion of roleplay, live events and lore

))

Tabris Katz
The Forgotten Children
#7 - 2014-12-19 07:48:07 UTC
While I have not encountered any Circadian Seekers yet , I have heard much about them in local chatter. However I have encountered one Sleeper site in Known Space and it makes me wonder. We have always assumed that Sleepers drones are just that, drones left over from a long dead civilization. What if this supposition is incorrect and they are in fact completely aware and what we are seeing is Sleeper staking a vested interest in Known Space our civilization? If this is the case then we must ask what are their long term goals? Personally I find this line of thinking not only possible but frightening, considering how much more advanced they are. This could be prelude to something much more sinister.
Deceiver's Echo
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#8 - 2014-12-19 07:49:06 UTC
Riordan, Saede
>>This does not change the initial premise of my suggestion. It in fact highlights the difference more, non? Thank you for the insight.

Egivand, Elmund
>>There is no evidence of a shared origin of the cloaked structures and Circadian Seekers. Phrasing suggests strong bias toward perceived threat despite lack of evidence to support supposition. Intriguing theory regardless. I would look forward to analyzing any evidence you can present to support your hypothesis.

Victorian, Jaret
>>Seeker drones identified in systems without Cloaked Structure. Connection between them is unlikely, though not impossible. If you were to pursue this theory, where do you think you would start? Thank you for your contribution to the discussion.

Osyn, Claudia
>>Assume Riordan, Saede is correct. Why would a weapon be equipped without being used defensively?
-Flawed construction.
-Threats perceived as negligible.
-Priorities do not involve combat.

>>Audiofile - Undated
Voice One: "When is a weapon not a weapon?"
Voice Two: "I don't know, when?"
Voice One: "When it is a tool."
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2014-12-19 09:50:04 UTC
Deceiver's Echo wrote:


Egivand, Elmund
>>There is no evidence of a shared origin of the cloaked structures and Circadian Seekers. Phrasing suggests strong bias toward perceived threat despite lack of evidence to support supposition. Intriguing theory regardless. I would look forward to analyzing any evidence you can present to support your hypothesis.



To clarify my position, yes, I do see them as a potential threat. I see just about anything as a possible threat. It's a learned response from living out in lowsec for so long. Regardless, I do not have evidence, just a hypothesis and hardly any resources or manpower to actually test it.

However, Eojek from the below thread seems to have some ideas on how to test some of the ideas proposed in my hypothesis. Maybe you would like to coordinate efforts with him?

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=390538&p=7

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#10 - 2014-12-19 17:08:24 UTC
Deceiver's Echo wrote:


Osyn, Claudia
>>Assume Riordan, Saede is correct. Why would a weapon be equipped without being used defensively?
-Flawed construction.
-Threats perceived as negligible.
-Priorities do not involve combat.

I believe they are a threat, just not the kind you have to worry about shooting at you.
-If the launcher was a flaw in construction, I would expect to see it eather removed or put to a defensive use soon.
- If we are considered a negligible threat, despite having blown up a few of them, then having a missile system makes no sense in the first place.
-If combat is not a priority, then having a missile system equipped makes no sense.

A probe launcher of some kind would better fit the toolset of the appearent task these drones are performing.
Deceiver's Echo wrote:


>>Audiofile - Undated
Voice One: "When is a weapon not a weapon?"
Voice Two: "I don't know, when?"
Voice One: "When it is a tool."

and this is untrue, the weapon is still a weapon, It's original function hasn't changed, just the intent of the one using it.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Jaret Victorian
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#11 - 2014-12-19 17:18:51 UTC
Deceiver's Echo wrote:
Victorian, Jaret
>>Seeker drones identified in systems without Cloaked Structure. Connection between them is unlikely, though not impossible. If you were to pursue this theory, where do you think you would start? Thank you for your contribution to the discussion.

Green doesn't suit you, trust me.

Nonetheless, i think that these drones are somehow connected to the caches. They are old, and what if the drones were there all the time?
Anslo
Scope Works
#12 - 2014-12-19 17:21:46 UTC
Captain Davison
Malachi Keep Detachments
#13 - 2014-12-19 17:26:07 UTC


Check 'Circadian Seekers: A Study' for first-hand accounting of the events. I am not a primary source.
Deceiver's Echo
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#14 - 2014-12-19 21:00:58 UTC
Osyn, Claudia
>>Thank you for your insight.

Anslo
>>Please refrain from derogatory comments, and comments that may be perceived as derogatory. I wish to foster civil and directed discourse on a specific subject.
>>Thank you for your contribution.

Victorian, Jaret
>>I do not agree in your analysis of whether or not "green" in fact "suits me".
>>I would further suggest that the age of the Seekers is irrelevant. Links to "the caches" is also irrelevant in the context of Circadian Seeker technological similarity and parity with Sleeper drones in W-space.
>>If you see something I do not, please continue to observe and record. I feel it can only aid in furthering understanding of the Circadian Seekers and Sleeper drones.

Davison, Captain
>>Thank you for your honesty and for pointing out the original source of information.

Egivand, Elmund
>>I am sorry to hear of your experiences in lowsec. I do not discount your concerns, I simply wish to look at the situation with a new perspective.

Hanayea, Luna
>>There is no evidence suggesting a Divine origin of Sleeper drones. If Circadian Seeker drones are not using capabilities that they have, it is likely due to a strategic decision; if they cause disruption, they will be targeted as aggressors and marked with bounties by CONCORD.
>>

Katz, Tabris
>>Current theories suggest the Sleeper culture exists-in some state-within W-space.
>>It is unlikely that, without external threat, Sleepers would change their Modus Operandi.

***
Riordan, Saede:

Regarding "U2Vla2Vy": Please confirm possible meaning in reference to your insight.

When is a weapon not a weapon?
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#15 - 2014-12-20 09:36:12 UTC
Deceiver's Echo wrote:

I believe a full analysis of W-space Sleepers, Talocan, Sansha and "Rogue Drone" technology must be undertaken to determine similarities, differences, and parity in design. In short, I believe that we have been looking at this situation from the wrong perspective. If there is a source of technology that these various groups have in common, we may be able to determine more about not just Caroline's Star but about the entire Cluster itself.

I would recommend starting with following them to find out from where they come into our space and where they go.

If possible, try to study them without doing harm to them, not like capture and disassemble to see what's inside. Our kin has shown enough barbarianism in Sleeper space. Lets at least show them civility in our own.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2014-12-20 12:21:10 UTC
Deceiver's Echo wrote:


Egivand, Elmund
>>I am sorry to hear of your experiences in lowsec. I do not discount your concerns, I simply wish to look at the situation with a new perspective.



Do not fret. Perhaps the Seekers are merely explorers. Or perhaps they are truly finding something, Isogen-5 deposits, caches and stockpiles maybe. Or perhaps they really are gathering intelligence for a future incursion into k-space. We still have not the evidence to confirm one or the other. At least no concrete evidence.

And don't mind my paranoia. I simply swam with sharks for too long.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.