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target painter - cruise missile relations on bs+ ship size
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James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#41 - 2014-12-12 00:32:13 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:

Precision missiles don't reach nearly as far as fury, so you're limited to fury in long range engagements.
As i mentioned, it takes at least two TPs for fury to do more damage against BS's at all ranges, even with the BS sitting still.
For years players have been coming on missile threads saying that they have the same applied damage at all ranges. Now that TP threads are coming out, players are saying, why should missiles have the same applied damage at all ranges?
Seems like these particular ppl just don't want missiles in pvp combat....


Okay. So run faction ammo if you are outside the range you can reliably dual-paint things. Wow. Thats the thread everyone, it was all a case of using the wrong ammo for the application, you can go back to spinning.

If there exist ships specifically to bring painter support at extreme range, then you need to find a balanced niche for them before removing their role by giving a free bonus to one type of sniper battleships.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#42 - 2014-12-12 00:36:33 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
James Baboli wrote:

Then engage the enemy more closely. You are using range as part of your tank and creating this problem through your own actions.

Adding a stong long application bonus to several hulls, without any further balance considerations, is not the right solution. The right solution is to stop using an MJD to negate the majority of the damage or develop the patience to effectively use the tactic you have chosen.



Sooo, you're suggesting to NOT use a long range weapon system at long range?

.....


Hey everyone... You know those rail guns, artillery, and beams you're using?
Yeah, well, they work better at short range..

Now doesn't that just sound silly?


They work best in their optimal range basket, which is generally under 100km with the high damage ammo. shocker. They lose DPS at long range through having to switch ammo types to increase optimal range, or they lose application through falloff. Missiles don't have to, and lose application (if you run TPs) via their Ewar starting to miss.

The trade off for this range independent DPS and application is travel time. There are ways to reduce this trade off, just like everything else. Or you can count volleys and switch targets and wait.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#43 - 2014-12-12 00:39:04 UTC
i Would not balance a target painter under the assumption that the target painter is only being used by the one and only dps ship. (i.e. mission environment)

If TP's get longer range it does mean you can have an e-war ship far out of harms way while dps ships are still ontop of the target reaping all the benefits. I admit, this didnt even cross my mind in the previous TP thread.

If you want to use a long range weapon system with a TP you can still have a frig, vigil, hyena, bellicose, rapier or huginn flying 50-70km away from the target whilst you with 'those railguns' sitting as far away as you like and still getting the full benefits pretty much 100% of the time.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Rino00 Madeveda
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#44 - 2014-12-12 05:44:42 UTC
The assumption is that missiles themselves are never really used and the reason is that they have a hard time applying damage. They need the target painter to assist them in applying damage, unlike other weapon platforms.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#45 - 2014-12-12 06:31:05 UTC
Rino00 Madeveda wrote:
The assumption is that missiles themselves are never really used and the reason is that they have a hard time applying damage. They need the target painter to assist them in applying damage, unlike other weapon platforms.

So, lets fit some turrets with no tracking enhancers or tracking computers and see the damage output at 135km.
5 gets you 10 that anything but a paladin is at less than half its damage with short range ammo.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2014-12-12 08:09:00 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
So, lets fit some turrets with no tracking enhancers or tracking computers and see the damage output at 135km.
5 gets you 10 that anything but a paladin is at less than half its damage with short range ammo.

It's a good point guys: cruise missile ships start to lose DPS at the end of target painter range. Long range turret sniper battleships start losing damage at the end of short range T2 ammo range. Yes, turret boats have a lot more DPS close up, and yes, they can track frigates at very long range, but they slip underneath cruise DPS even before the end of target painter range. Even the Naga can't hit out to 135km with bigger ammo than uranium, and that's with max skills and 3 tracking computers.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#47 - 2014-12-12 08:44:25 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:



it's funny you should say it's a carebear problem, considering this proves the point of missiles not being used for long range engagements, outside of PVE.


That's because at long range by the time the missiles have hit gunboats will have caused more damage and the missiles can be countered by fire walls. Missiles are more of a mid range small gang/solo weapon.
Janeway84
Insane's Asylum
#48 - 2014-12-12 10:16:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Janeway84
The reason FOF exist is probably due to ecm.
turret armor battleships can easily use up a modslot to fit eccm to counter the ecm to a certain extent.
But for shield bs you havet to sacrifice tank / Ewar to fit counter ewar.
I guess its all down to preference and tactics.
Best way to counter ecm in my experience is usually more pilots in fleet and good flying sometimes P

Only useful missiles for pvp are close range ones due to the trade offs between all long range and short range weapons Smile
Imo maybe ccp could do something to help the target painters and how they affect missiles & long range weapons.
Shivanthar
#49 - 2014-12-12 13:23:06 UTC
Thank you guys.
I appreciate your answers, both supportive and negative ones.
I can't help myself but smile, in front of whole community who puts tons of edge ideas and cases I couldn't even imagine.
Unless ccp decides to do something, I think I will be in htfu mode and just thankful to my cruise missiles that they can even hit that far ^.^

Just wanted my 2500isk salvo counts more, you know. We all have been there sometimes ;)

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
Rino00 Madeveda
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2014-12-12 13:44:29 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
Rino00 Madeveda wrote:
The assumption is that missiles themselves are never really used and the reason is that they have a hard time applying damage. They need the target painter to assist them in applying damage, unlike other weapon platforms.

So, lets fit some turrets with no tracking enhancers or tracking computers and see the damage output at 135km.
5 gets you 10 that anything but a paladin is at less than half its damage with short range ammo.


The catch is that tracking enhancers and tracking computers always help your ship, target painters don't always help. With long range Railgun ammo a hybrid (with spike) has it's optimal set at 130 km before any tracking mods enter the equation. Tracking enhancers and tracking computers increase their range and tracking. Nevermind vs a Golem a Megathron can do extremely close to full dps at that range, even at worst case situation. Missiles still don't do instant damage and they can be destroyed. That affords them perfect damage selection if damage weakness is known (requires effort in pvp since it is obvious to plug your tanks resist hole) and capless firing. Those are a serious drawback in pvp. Why is it that people hardly use missiles in pvp? Well, because they are easy to counter.

Besides a buff to target painters range (using harder to fit modules) would help small long range fleets. It would allow turrets to get closer to their paper dps at long range. And still I'll stand by turrets don't have to worry about if a target is going to fly off when shooting from long range.
MukkBarovian
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#51 - 2014-12-12 13:53:30 UTC
My pipe dream s a Minmatar BS with decent speed that can be fit armor or shield and has a bonus to target painting.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2014-12-12 13:59:02 UTC
MukkBarovian wrote:
My pipe dream s a Minmatar BS with decent speed that can be fit armor or shield and has a bonus to target painting.

I vote the Typhoon goes the route of the Armageddon and becomes a "disruption" battleship specializing in target painters with both a turret and missile damage bonus. Even with three skill bonuses, it can only use two at once, as any given high slot can either have a turret or launcher, not both.

7 high slots, 6 mid slots, 6 low slots, 7 launcher hardpoints, 7 turret hardpoints

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
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