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replace laser cap use bonus on amarr ships
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Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2014-12-10 12:15:18 UTC
Or how a tracking bonus on autocannons allows them to hit the target without switching to depleted uranium, or a rate of fire bonus on any weapon gives slightly more DPS than a damage increase while giving some sort of drawback to balance it out:
lasers: more cap usage
missiles/autocannons: more ammo usage
hybrids: more cap and ammo usage
artillery: less alpha strike

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#22 - 2014-12-10 12:32:22 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Or how a tracking bonus on autocannons allows them to hit the target without switching to depleted uranium, or a rate of fire bonus on any weapon gives slightly more DPS than a damage increase while giving some sort of drawback to balance it out:
lasers: more cap usage
missiles/autocannons: more ammo usage
hybrids: more cap and ammo usage
artillery: less alpha strike

Yes, tracking and range bonuses are pretty clearly bonuses to damage application, which, in turn, increase DPS. I hadn't considered the laser cap usage bonus a bonus to damage application until just now.

Relatively Notorious By Association

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I predicted FAUXs
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#23 - 2014-12-10 14:53:29 UTC
Major Trant wrote:
Cap management is a feature of Amarr ships, the penalty to oppose the benefit of immediate crystal switching, never having to reload and awesome dps.

There are crystals that reduce the cap load, but most people just ignore them choosing Multifreq or the T2 ammunition. The simple fact is that a ship bonus that reduces cap usage for lasers, effectively amounts to a DPS bonus because it allows you to fire Multifreq considerably longer, rather than say switch to Standard Crystals (45% reduced cap need).

Last summer I took part in a series of sub cap POS bashes. We used ABCs and in a fleet of 20 with 5 of them Oracles firing T1 MultiFreq, the 5 Oracles consistently ended up as the top 5 damage dealers, with none of them needing to call for cap or use cap boosters.

I've taken part in some deathstar POS bashes and in these cases (when dreads weren't an option) the preferred BS was an Abaddon. Now these did suffer cap problems. Guards or cap boosters was usually the solution, but another option could have been to simply drop the DPS, by switching to Standard crystals. However, to most people the thought of dropping DPS just to preserve cap is unthinkable. But that is how the system is designed to be and when you realize that, a bonus to laser cap usage does amount to a DPS boost.

I use the example of POS bashes as these require sustained DPS over a considerable time - the worst case scenario for a laser boat and yet Laser boats are still the preferred choice. In shorter engagements the benefits of lasers are even more pronounced.

-1


well the fact you can be neuted out fairly easily even with the cap bonus is a massive drawback already, but not being able too fire your guns for more than a few minutes at a time is quite absurd, lasers don't have the dps too compensate for even small periods of time not firing due too capping out.
range isn't that much better than missiles for instance, instant ammo switching is nice but most crystals aren't worth using, after scorch the range, dps etc aren't good enough too justify the cap bonus.
only way i think it can be justified is on something mobile (uses lots of cap) with a big ROF bonus not a piddly 5% ROF either

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#24 - 2014-12-10 20:25:20 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Major Trant wrote:
The simple fact is that a ship bonus that reduces cap usage for lasers, effectively amounts to a DPS bonus because it allows you to fire Multifreq considerably longer, rather than say switch to Standard Crystals (45% reduced cap need).

I'm going to eat crow here for a moment and admit that, after seeing it explained like this, maybe the cap reduction bonus isn't broken like I had thought it was.

It's similar to how I like to point out that optimal range bonuses on Caldari railgun ships is actually a damage bonus because it lets you use antimatter ammo out to longer engagement ranges when other ships would have had to switch to less-damaging ammo.

Interesting....


I don't know what I like more - Major Trant's explanation or Bronson Hughes's unusual willingness to consider another person's opinion. Props to both you gentlemen.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2014-12-10 21:51:33 UTC
Harvey James wrote:


well the fact you can be neuted out fairly easily even with the cap bonus is a massive drawback already, but not being able too fire your guns for more than a few minutes at a time is quite absurd, lasers don't have the dps too compensate for even small periods of time not firing due too capping out.

I don't really have too much difficulty making lasers cap stable by themselves without the cap cost bonus, but I remember when I did. Perhaps the system is poorly setup for new players, as capacitor skills make such a tremendous difference in capacitor recharge rate.

I think a good way to help mitigate this (and also ensure Amarr ships have a superior capacitor) is to boost their capacitor storage very significantly over other races' ships, without increasing their recharge rates from what they are now. This will have the advantages of making them more neut-resistant and will make newer pilots able to shoot longer, and the disadvantage of reducing how much capacitor recharge they get from capacitor batteries. I think that disadvantage is a pretty minor one, all things considered.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#26 - 2014-12-11 03:00:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
CCP even officially acknowledged that Laser Cap bonuses were a problem when looking at the Battleships with Tiericide. And removed it from nearly all of them, leaving 1 which specifically has zero cap issues firing guns at all.
Yet they are perpetuating the already acknowledged bad design in the small & medium classes.


---

Also Amarr ships 'superior' capacitor is actually the weakest Capacitor once actually firing your weapon systems is taken into account.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#27 - 2014-12-11 21:32:39 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
CCP even officially acknowledged that Laser Cap bonuses were a problem when looking at the Battleships with Tiericide. And removed it from nearly all of them, leaving 1 which specifically has zero cap issues firing guns at all.
Yet they are perpetuating the already acknowledged bad design in the small & medium classes.


---

Also Amarr ships 'superior' capacitor is actually the weakest Capacitor once actually firing your weapon systems is taken into account.


indeed. also points at abbadons laughable cap regen. that thing needs an overhaul for sure .. less guns more utility highs and better dps.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2014-12-11 21:41:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
I would agree to a buff to Amarrian capacitor systems. Laser ships, as a design philosophy, should have uncommonly strong capacitors, even if it comes at the cost of something else. After all, Minmatar ships have smaller sig radius and higher velocity/agility at the expense of reduced hit points.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#29 - 2014-12-11 22:10:20 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I would agree to a buff to Amarrian capacitor systems. Laser ships, as a design philosophy, should have uncommonly strong capacitors, even if it comes at the cost of something else. After all, Minmatar ships have smaller sig radius and higher velocity/agility at the expense of reduced hit points.

Problem is a cap buff large enough to use lasers without the cap regen bonus makes them truly insane next to anything else.
So Lasers still need a significant cap reduction.

The Laser Cap use dates back to when Lasers were OP and people were putting them on everything.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#30 - 2014-12-15 22:24:52 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I would agree to a buff to Amarrian capacitor systems. Laser ships, as a design philosophy, should have uncommonly strong capacitors, even if it comes at the cost of something else. After all, Minmatar ships have smaller sig radius and higher velocity/agility at the expense of reduced hit points.


and what would the penalty be?

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#31 - 2014-12-16 02:59:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
i wouldnt buff amarr capacitors, just lower the cap cost of lasers.

lasers are unusable on non-amarrian ships. this would remedy that and allow for some good **** s and giggles (laser raven). (you can half cap cost of lasers across the board and they still use more cap than hybrids)

Amarr can still have powerful capacitors for reasons other than lasers.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
J A Aloysiusz
Risk Breakers
SONS of BANE
#32 - 2014-12-16 03:40:39 UTC
Please get rid of this stupid bonus.

Do not put it into a hull bonus. Amarr lasers should be powerful, at the expense of heavy capacitor use.

Any ships that would be made unusable due to removal of capacitor use (this mostly affects pvers reliant on passive recharge) could receive a buff to their passive capacitor stats. Amarr is supposed to have the strongest capacitor, after all.

^
My $.02
Tusker Crazinski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2014-12-16 04:00:45 UTC
Yes for the love of god!

Granted some cap bonuses to lasers have been removed, namely the Abbadon. But yes laser the laser boats that are stuck with this miss out on application, projection or DPS buffs other hulls in their class get.

Make lasers worth the Gigajoules required to fire them instead of making them take less gigajoules


Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Or how a tracking bonus on autocannons allows them to hit the target without switching to depleted uranium, or a rate of fire bonus on any weapon gives slightly more DPS than a damage increase while giving some sort of drawback to balance it out:
lasers: more cap usage
missiles/autocannons: more ammo usage
hybrids: more cap and ammo usage
artillery: less alpha strike


Yes on the Ammo, that should be much more of a limiting factor
Yes I guess, the real issue Hybrids are just better than energy and projectiles.
Arty. no that is literally the one thing they do good.
Tusker Crazinski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2014-12-16 04:02:39 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:


Also Amarr ships 'superior' capacitor is actually the weakest Capacitor once actually firing your weapon systems is taken into account.


the Dragoon, Geddon, Arbitrator, Prophecy, Guardian, Arguor would like to have a word with you
Cassius Invictus
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#35 - 2014-12-16 11:52:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Cassius Invictus
Hmm I think we need done something to lasers.

It's not the problem with large cap use on it's own, it's than ships like legion can pretty much neut themselves just by shooting, with no good reason (if laser would do more dmg than blasters that would make sense).

Insta changing crystals? I fly all races so I can call it a nice but a rather useless bonus. No ammo? Well it's also nice, but handy only when shooting at PoS... Blasters have 5s ammo swap time and it's quite sufficient.

I agree that buffing cap of ships is a bad idea since that coud create some sick self-rep combos on some amarr ships. Overall reduction of lasers cap use (medium and large) seems a good idea.

Another option is a complete redesign of how lasers work. Make them do much more damage, use much more cap, and use them as a burst (but not alpha) type weapon, that coud do huge damage but for a limited period of time.

EDIT. Or u could go opposite way: make them "long-ednurance" wepaon with low initial dps, that would increase over time along with cap use, but you would need cap boosters to maintain its peak dps.
Juan Thang
Optimistic Wasteland Inc.
Fraternity.
#36 - 2014-12-16 14:04:41 UTC
Just dont come crying to me when you are complaining about having to fit cap boosters all the time on amarr ships after taking the bonus off. Im looking at the battleships in particular here.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#37 - 2014-12-16 15:17:24 UTC
The big issue with amarr battleships is they still have baseline cap stats, even with their weapons using substantially more cap than anyone elses. A sane designer would have set up enough cap to keep the guns going most of the time.

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Making battleships worth the warp
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#38 - 2014-12-16 16:51:58 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Major Trant wrote:
The simple fact is that a ship bonus that reduces cap usage for lasers, effectively amounts to a DPS bonus because it allows you to fire Multifreq considerably longer, rather than say switch to Standard Crystals (45% reduced cap need).

I'm going to eat crow here for a moment and admit that, after seeing it explained like this, maybe the cap reduction bonus isn't broken like I had thought it was.

It's similar to how I like to point out that optimal range bonuses on Caldari railgun ships is actually a damage bonus because it lets you use antimatter ammo out to longer engagement ranges when other ships would have had to switch to less-damaging ammo.

Interesting....

The difference is that there are more than just Caldari ships which can effectively use hybrids. Tracking-bonused gallente ships can be capable at that usage as well.

When it comes to energy turrets, however, only Amarr ships use them, other ships neither have bonuses to their stats nor cap to sustain full activation costs of lasers. SoE oddballs are pretty irrelevant here.

What that means in reality is that in case with railguns example you have choices between range and tracking coming with different hulls (which means that fleets built around these choices will require different logistics in both senses), but lasers are pretty much glued to Amarr hulls (I can't think of a situation where it can be beneficial to use lasers on non-amarr ships over something else on non-amarr ships or over lasers on Amarr ships).

The only exception here is Abaddon that is bonused for lasers but don't have cap consumption bonus. You can argue that in that case you have a choice of not using "hot" crystals and go with longer ranged option instead - that happen to consume less cap.
In this case you're not going to match Apoc's damage at any range (provided Apoc have access to all needed crystals) including up close (due to lack of tracking bonus), but you can have somewhat better tank and more DPS against large webbed/painted targets up close (not for long though as it will burn your cap). Not sure if you want such ship over some specialist like Apoc or Mega (not a laser ship, but it's just means to an end and not a contest of laser totters?).
Then there's an option to support Abaddons with energy transfer, the question is: is it worth your pilots when there are alternatives? Can a gang/fleet of Abaddons plus some support ships that can allow them to fire their guns do something that a gang/fleet of the same size cannot do better by bringing more combat ships instead of mix of combat and nice support ones?

That's one of the questions you need to answer to estimate Amarr ships' place: is it good or not. Saying that some hull have just one bonus instead of two doesn't mean anything: in the end it's just stats of the end product (which we can assume is flown with all Vs anyways, hence non-module bonuses can be considered non-bonuses, just as a bonus to a weapon system that is present on all hulls said system is used with can be considered such too...).

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#39 - 2014-12-16 18:23:44 UTC
If they removed the cap bonus from Amarr ships, lowered the cap use on the weapons, and gave the ships a new bonus, there is going to be a corresponding nerf somewhere. The cap use bonus is a good bonus, unless lasers as a group are so terrible when compared with other weapons, which is hardly the case in my experience.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#40 - 2014-12-16 19:26:13 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
If they removed the cap bonus from Amarr ships, lowered the cap use on the weapons, and gave the ships a new bonus, there is going to be a corresponding nerf somewhere. The cap use bonus is a good bonus, unless lasers as a group are so terrible when compared with other weapons, which is hardly the case in my experience.

Except for the small fact that Lasers are actually terrible when compared with other weapons.
And the change on BS's actually increased the cap useage on ships that used to have a cap bonus. Which is a Nerf of itself as well.
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