These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

250mm Railguns. Ishtars. Heavy Missiles

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
J A Aloysiusz
Risk Breakers
SONS of BANE
#121 - 2014-12-03 00:13:15 UTC  |  Edited by: J A Aloysiusz
Oh and I think 250 rails are fairly reasonable in the context of all weapon systems (maybe lose ~5% damage and tracking), but they are imbalanced within their own weapon class.

Instead of a heavy 250 nerf, I would greatly prefer the zealot and muninn get buffs, and/or 720s and heavy beams be made to fit more easily on the hulls that they are designed for.

IE, Muninn does less DPS with 425's w/ hail (let alone 720s) than a 250 deimos, not to mention the deimos gets twice the drone bandwidth, so obviously something is wrong. But a heavy nerf to 250s would destroy the poor little Eagle and vulture, who finally have *sort of* found a niche!

AHAC 720 muninns would be fun as [censored] if they didn't suck so terribly!

And of course, HMLs are currently garbage and need a buff. Even the drakenstein monster of '12 would be balanced in today's environment.

P.S. Battlecruisers+CSs are bigger than cruisers and HACs and should be able to fit the largest medium weapons with ease. Is that not a no-brainer?
J A Aloysiusz
Risk Breakers
SONS of BANE
#122 - 2014-12-03 00:25:02 UTC
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:
Nerfing sentries to fix one ship makes about as much sense as nerfing HML's to fix Drakes. Just my thought on that last part...


I thought of that as well, and I'm not entirely sure whether or not I agree with you. But I think the comparison of projection is evidence enough that a tracking nerf is needed.

Perhaps a combined slight nerf to sentry tracking, outright removal of the ishtar's sentry tracking bonus, and a decrease in drone bay to 250m3 (giving it less ability to field variety, and less resistance to drone smartbombing) would work well in conjunction for a more balanced ship?
J A Aloysiusz
Risk Breakers
SONS of BANE
#123 - 2014-12-03 00:40:43 UTC
Lastly, before I walk away from the computer (I swear, I'll do it!), I'll mention that I don't see much complaining about the heavy drone ishtar, despite its epic raw DPS.

If ishtar loses a sentry, should it lose a heavy drone as well?
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#124 - 2014-12-03 00:51:00 UTC
J A Aloysiusz wrote:
Oh and I think 250 rails are fairly reasonable in the context of all weapon systems (maybe lose ~5% damage and tracking), but they are imbalanced within their own weapon class.


No

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Zavand Crendraven
Rolling Static
Wardec Mechanics
#125 - 2014-12-03 02:27:38 UTC
J A Aloysiusz wrote:
Oh and I think 250 rails are fairly reasonable in the context of all weapon systems (maybe lose ~5% damage and tracking), but they are imbalanced within their own weapon class.

they do blaster dps basically but way better range
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#126 - 2014-12-03 10:44:55 UTC
J A Aloysiusz wrote:
Lastly, before I walk away from the computer (I swear, I'll do it!), I'll mention that I don't see much complaining about the heavy drone ishtar, despite its epic raw DPS.

If ishtar loses a sentry, should it lose a heavy drone as well?


i think the better ooption is just to reduce the damage bonuses for heavies/sentries to 7.5% removing a drone enitrely might be too heavy a nerf.
reducing dronebay to 250 would force more sacrificies and stop the easy use of replacing sentry drones that die.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#127 - 2014-12-03 11:44:19 UTC
Zavand Crendraven wrote:
J A Aloysiusz wrote:
Oh and I think 250 rails are fairly reasonable in the context of all weapon systems (maybe lose ~5% damage and tracking), but they are imbalanced within their own weapon class.

they do blaster dps basically but way better range


And tracking has nothing to do with it. The only boat in EVE that can hit something at close(r) range(s) is the vigilant. Everything has to be really fast to stay at range or be an abomination.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
hungrymanbreakfast
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#128 - 2014-12-06 00:07:49 UTC
J A Aloysiusz wrote:
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:
Nerfing sentries to fix one ship makes about as much sense as nerfing HML's to fix Drakes. Just my thought on that last part...


I thought of that as well, and I'm not entirely sure whether or not I agree with you. But I think the comparison of projection is evidence enough that a tracking nerf is needed.

Perhaps a combined slight nerf to sentry tracking, outright removal of the ishtar's sentry tracking bonus, and a decrease in drone bay to 250m3 (giving it less ability to field variety, and less resistance to drone smartbombing) would work well in conjunction for a more balanced ship?


Sentry drones need to be outright removed or redesigned. Every drone ship doctrine uses sentries over any other drone except fighter bombers. If drones had to chase targets we wouldn't even be discussing ishtars.
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#129 - 2014-12-06 00:27:53 UTC
hungrymanbreakfast wrote:
J A Aloysiusz wrote:
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:
Nerfing sentries to fix one ship makes about as much sense as nerfing HML's to fix Drakes. Just my thought on that last part...


I thought of that as well, and I'm not entirely sure whether or not I agree with you. But I think the comparison of projection is evidence enough that a tracking nerf is needed.

Perhaps a combined slight nerf to sentry tracking, outright removal of the ishtar's sentry tracking bonus, and a decrease in drone bay to 250m3 (giving it less ability to field variety, and less resistance to drone smartbombing) would work well in conjunction for a more balanced ship?


Sentry drones need to be outright removed or redesigned. Every drone ship doctrine uses sentries over any other drone except fighter bombers. If drones had to chase targets we wouldn't even be discussing ishtars.


That's because we wouldn't be discussing them the same way we don't discuss Hurricanes. Anyone seen a Hurricane lately in nullsec?

How about a Brutix, or Ferox, or Harbinger. Or Nidhoggur, Hypherion, Abbadon, Typhoon?

The solution (If you think there needs to be one) to a ship being excessively versatile is not to take the only decent attributes about them and trash them completely, reducing them to full on garbage tier.

Drones chasing targets are not viable for anything other than a relatively small gang, relatively short range engagement. In any other situation other than clearing small tackle with warriors or hitting non or barely mobile structures, actual flight time between targets and immense vulnerability to both smartbombs and conventional bombs means that non sentry drones are an unreliable, weak, useless primary weapon systems.
Capqu
Half Empty
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#130 - 2014-12-10 01:22:25 UTC
Honestly amazed that there were 0 changes to any of the above at all in rhea. Hopefully not a sign of (the lack) of things to come.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5tVbVu9Mkg
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#131 - 2014-12-10 03:20:26 UTC
Capqu wrote:
Honestly amazed that there were 0 changes to any of the above at all in rhea. Hopefully not a sign of (the lack) of things to come.


I've noticed that CCP seems to eventually get around to agreeing with you guys. I wouldn't be surprised to see changes in the next couple of patches.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Rino007
#132 - 2014-12-10 03:31:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Rino007
hungrymanbreakfast wrote:
[quote=J A Aloysiusz][quote=scorchlikeshiswhiskey]

Sentry drones need to be outright removed or redesigned. Every drone ship doctrine uses sentries over any other drone except fighter bombers. If drones had to chase targets we wouldn't even be discussing ishtars.


The problem with sentris is specifically the Ishtar. It is capable of battleship level dps without the drawbacks of being a battleship. If it had the drawbacks of being a battleship, it wouldn't be as overpowering because it could be countered. Simply decrease the number of sentries it can use to 4 and it wouldn't be as overpowering. That would trim it's dps down by 20%


Truth be told I was comparing a Dominix 3 slot armor tank vs an Ishtar with a 3 slot shield tank a few days ago. The Ishtar would get a stronger tank (less buffer) than the dominix, with the same dps with sentries, and more with heavy drones, the only thing that the Ishtar might not beat the Dominix with is the effective range of the drones. Something doesn't seem right there in my opinion. In almost forms of context the Ishtar is superior to the Dominix and that is a problem rooted in the fact it has battleship level dps due to that 5th sentry. The Dominix can microjump away and then make the Ishtar go boom with enough of a fit, but at close range hands down the Ishtar wins (doing more drone dps via heavy drones than the Dominix). With 4 Warden 2's in this fit it can have 493 Drone dps. Granted it has 0 gun dps, but truth be told it doesn't need gun dps because it's close range dps is 599. And remember that is with 4 sentry drones, not the 5 that it is capable now (748 close, 616 far range) Sounds way more desirable than a Dominix to me considering its signature.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#133 - 2014-12-10 05:53:43 UTC
Capqu wrote:
These things need changes, and I think most of the community knows it.

I'm tired of **** posting in all the meaningless "balance" threads with irrelevant changes and just want to see some actual meaningful changes for once in my goddamn life.


The above sentiment (at least in my mind) also applies to adding content and paradigm shifts for:

  • Incarna
  • Capital Ships
  • PI


And yet we're still making rant topics about the same old ship / module balancing drama that has been happening for the last 11 years....

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Viribus
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#134 - 2014-12-10 08:15:51 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
Capqu wrote:
These things need changes, and I think most of the community knows it.

I'm tired of **** posting in all the meaningless "balance" threads with irrelevant changes and just want to see some actual meaningful changes for once in my goddamn life.


The above sentiment (at least in my mind) also applies to adding content and paradigm shifts for:

  • Incarna
  • Capital Ships
  • PI


And yet we're still making rant topics about the same old ship / module balancing drama that has been happening for the last 11 years....



  • Incarna was a failed attempt to make a spaceship game about walking your barbie around and 95% of players would rather just forget about it
  • Did you miss the massive change to capital mechanics that happened all of 6 weeks ago?
  • PI by all accounts seems to work fine


did you just want an excuse to use the phrase "paradigm shift"?

watch me be a scurb and get owned
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#135 - 2014-12-10 08:41:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Adrie Atticus
Capqu wrote:
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:


Rails on a Tengu comfortably hit to 130km, Heavy missiles on the same ship will only hit to 88km and do significantly less applied damage at that range than the rails. That is without tracking or range mods for the rails, which the Heavies cannot even have. Not to mention the inherent disadvantage of delayed and destroyable [smartbombing] damage.


Actually, slippery petes are effective up to 190km...

[quote=Anhenka]
That's because we wouldn't be discussing them the same way we don't discuss Hurricanes. Anyone seen a Hurricane lately in nullsec?


I did see one as I was flying it! It was back in Octob...wait, September? No...Aug...July.. *check killboard* uhm, early June this year!
Viribus
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#136 - 2014-12-11 11:10:46 UTC
i killed a hurricane a month or two ago.

he was cyno bait but didn't bring enough ozone.

that's all the hurricane is good for.

watch me be a scurb and get owned
Grytok
KL0NKRIEGER
#137 - 2014-12-11 22:24:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Grytok
If we want to fix the Ishtar in a fashionable manner I'd suggest reducing the bandwitch to 50mb and change it's boni to medium-drones and armor-tank. Remove one med and give it an additional low slot.

Low slots: 6
Medium slots: 4
High slots: 4

Drone bay: 175m3
Drone bandwidth : 50mb

Gallente Cruiser skill bonus per level:
7.5% Armor Repair amount
10% Drone hitpoints and damage

Heavy Assault Cruisers skill bonus per level:
10% Medium Drone damage
30% Medium Drone hitpoints

Role Bonus:
50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

---

This makes the Ishtar into a viable medium-sized drone boat with brawler-capabilities. With three DDA II fitted and five Hammerhead II we'd be looking at ~550 DPS, and the drones would gain some needed survivability. The reduced drone-bay would still be plenty enough for three sets of mediums and a set of smalls.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#138 - 2014-12-11 22:28:54 UTC
Grytok wrote:
If we want to fix the Ishtar in a fashionable manner I'd suggest reducing the bandwitch to 50mb and change it's boni to medium-drones and armor-tank. Remove one med and give it an additional low slot.

Gila says Hi!
If you do this to it either the Ishtar or the Gila become never used.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#139 - 2014-12-11 22:44:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Grytok wrote:
If we want to fix the Ishtar in a fashionable manner I'd suggest reducing the bandwitch to 50mb and change it's boni to medium-drones and armor-tank. Remove one med and give it an additional low slot.

Gila says Hi!
If you do this to it either the Ishtar or the Gila become never used.


i'd bet on the ishtar, when you consider how OP the gila is right now.

the nerf needs too be more reducing its effectiveness with sentries and to a lesser extent heavies.

nerf its dronebay too 250, this limits options and replacement waves and makes sense on a cruiser hull too have less bay than a battleship. VNI for example.

and reduce its drone damage bonuses to 7.5% too sentries and heavies. and nerf heavy tracking to 5% aswell

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Grytok
KL0NKRIEGER
#140 - 2014-12-12 16:37:10 UTC
The main-reason I actually see, why the Ishtar is now so popular is the Drone Damage Amplifiers and . Before those mods, the DPS wasn't that impressive and the reason nobody used the Ishtar like they do these days.

Without DDAs the 5 Garde II do 420 DPS with max skills. Now slap on three DDA IIs and you'll up the DPS to 700.

The damage-boni on the Ishtar haven't changed, and the range and tracking for the sentries isn't that important imho.
Let's look at Ishtar vs unbonused sentries without mods.
Garde II = 37.5 km vs 30 km - 0.045 r/sec vs 0.036 r/sec - 84 DPS vs 56 DPS
Curator II = 65.6 km vs 52.5 km - 0.034 r/sec vs 0.028 r/sec - 79 DPS vs 53 DPS
Bouncer II = 65.6 km vs 52.5 km - 0.024 r/sec vs 0.019 r/sec - 74 DPS vs 50 DPS
Warden II = 93.7 km vs 75 km - 0.015 r/sec vs 0.012 r/sec - 69 DPS vs 46 DPS

No big deal there really, especially with the tracking, as every cruiser or frig with a little transversal won't get hit at all or just brushed occasionally. If you fly straight into the fire nothings changed either.

So yeah, maybe the only problem that needs fixing is the Drone Damage Amplifiers and the assigining of drones to other players.

Or maybe there isn't something to be fixed at all, and you just need to bring a couple bombers or smart-bomb-ships to kill off the drones. Even with the 50% bonus to hitpoints the T2-sentries of an Ishtar die horribly to a battleship fitted with three or four smarties.
So get a CovOps to provide a warp-in for those smartie-battleships and pooof... there goes all the Ishtars DPS.