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Screen reader and EULA

Author
IgnoreTheDroid
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1 - 2014-12-09 00:45:21 UTC  |  Edited by: IgnoreTheDroid
So digging through some previous threads I can't really get a solid answer to this question. My understanding of the EULA says it is OK but I would like some confirmation. If a GM could reply that would be great.

So what I am looking to develop would be a local watcher. If someone with no or negative standing comes in it plays a noise to notify you.

No mouse movements
No automation of in-game movement/scrolling, activation of modules, etc.
No buttons are hit.
No modification of game files or logs. In fact I won't be using any game files or logs at all.
No reading of log files or any game files.
It would play a sound completely separate of the game.
It will not target the eve client specifically it will capture the whole screen or section of the screen it is set to. Anything in view in that area will be "captured".

It would monitor the screen(or subsection of the screen) for the specific standings icons and plays a noise if they are found. EULA talks about automation of ingame actions mostly but this isn't doing that.

If I developed it would it be safe to use?

Edit:

CCP, I would be more than willing to provide source code if someone would be interested in looking into it. I can code it without using the game by just using screenshots of standings icons or in game.
Johnathan Roark
Quantum Industries
#2 - 2014-12-09 02:08:59 UTC
I'm going to go out on a limb and say no. There was another program that did something along the lines of what you are talking about. It was banned and how it accomplished this was patched very quickly.

EVEVERIFY - A recruiting API Verification and Audit Tool

Also try out Yapeal for your php api needs

IgnoreTheDroid
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#3 - 2014-12-09 02:33:39 UTC  |  Edited by: IgnoreTheDroid
Johnathan Roark wrote:
I'm going to go out on a limb and say no. There was another program that did something along the lines of what you are talking about. It was banned and how it accomplished this was patched very quickly.


I believe you are talking about Bacon which used the logserver in a way that was not intended/supposed to be used. I have no intention of using any logs or files generated by eve.

More on bacon here at post 623 obviously that is no longer valid but it brings up how it worked.
Kali Izia
GoomWaffe
#4 - 2014-12-09 05:35:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Kali Izia
This page lists the relevant portions of the EULA that apply to third party apps: http://community.eveonline.com/support/policies/third-party-policies/

Your specific use case would likely fall under "2. You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played." among others
Amely Miles
Second Exile
#5 - 2014-12-09 06:26:45 UTC
Kali Izia wrote:
modify any content appearing within the Game environment


i fail to see how this would change or modify the game content

on a side note i feel that a program like this would have a limited use as you can only have so much screen displaying local

As I slipped my finger slowly inside her hole, I could immediately feel it getting wetter and wetter.

I took my finger back out and within seconds she was going down on me.

"I really need a new boat," I thought to myself.

IgnoreTheDroid
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#6 - 2014-12-09 11:53:31 UTC
Amely Miles wrote:
Kali Izia wrote:
modify any content appearing within the Game environment


i fail to see how this would change or modify the game content

on a side note i feel that a program like this would have a limited use as you can only have so much screen displaying local


Exactly. I am not modifying anything in game or any eve files outside of the game. No macros, no automation of input or actions.

It would be useless in any system that has local that would require you to scroll. The intended demographic would be players in sov null sec but it could be modified for others as well.
Deamos
Dev Null Development and Holdings
#7 - 2014-12-10 11:31:36 UTC
A few years back I developed a local watcher which was then tied to an Arduino microcontroller to beep/flash if a hostile entered local doing the same thing as you are suggesting. I passed it along to CCP which soundly rejected it.

So, I don't believe you are going to be able to get something like this out there without angering CCP.
Minchurra
Perkone
#8 - 2014-12-10 13:00:21 UTC
There's a guy in my alliance that has been trying to peddle some software that does this. He was unwilling to share the source so I didn't go for it.

Message me in-game, I'll pass on the details if you want to get in touch with hiim, he seemed pretty convinced what he was making was legit.
Althalus Stenory
Flying Blacksmiths
#9 - 2014-12-10 13:44:43 UTC
The correct thing you should read in the EULA is this point :

Quote:
We do not endorse or condone the use of player-made software or any other third party applications or software that confers an unfair benefit to players. [...] However, if any third party application or other software is used to gain any unfair advantage, [...] , we may fully enforce our rights to prohibit such use, including player bans.


That's to say: if you make a software that provides to you, or any of its user, an unfair advantage / benefit from its use (such as "auto watch local in 0.0", "auto market notifier (if your order has been overbid)", etc.) you fall under this EULA rule and thus, you are "not" allowed to use it, as all other players will not have the same "feature" and benefit.

But at the end, i'd say, you can do what you want, as long as you know what you are doing and the risk involved for your account :)

EsiPy - Python 2.7 / 3.3+ Swagger Client based on pyswagger for ESI

Amely Miles
Second Exile
#10 - 2014-12-10 14:18:13 UTC
Althalus Stenory wrote:
The correct thing you should read in the EULA is this point :

Quote:
We do not endorse or condone the use of player-made software or any other third party applications or software that confers an unfair benefit to players. [...] However, if any third party application or other software is used to gain any unfair advantage, [...] , we may fully enforce our rights to prohibit such use, including player bans.


That's to say: if you make a software that provides to you, or any of its user, an unfair advantage / benefit from its use (such as "auto watch local in 0.0", "auto market notifier (if your order has been overbid)", etc.) you fall under this EULA rule and thus, you are "not" allowed to use it, as all other players will not have the same "feature" and benefit.

But at the end, i'd say, you can do what you want, as long as you know what you are doing and the risk involved for your account :)



Endorse or Condone ...sounds like they won't give out support for software like that and don't like people doing it but they won't say much

if any third party application or other software is used to gain any unfair advantage, [...] , we may fully enforce our rights to prohibit such use, including player bans.

that sounds like basicly make it as long as it doesn't tick off to many people and get them complaining then your fine and dandy but if they do complain then you will get banned for a few days, weeks or months


As I slipped my finger slowly inside her hole, I could immediately feel it getting wetter and wetter.

I took my finger back out and within seconds she was going down on me.

"I really need a new boat," I thought to myself.

IgnoreTheDroid
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#11 - 2014-12-10 15:08:06 UTC
I think I am safe from "unfair advantage". It really isn't much different than evemon that alerts you when your clone was out of date or your skill queue was about to end. You still have manually correct this just like you would for what I am building. The biggest difference is that it won't use api and that it will monitor the screen itself. Bacon was a similar program except it used log files. It was removed because it used those logs not for what it actually did. So I should be safe in that regard.

CCP: Is there anyone I could send source code to for you guys to look it over and determine where it would fall? The screen reader itself is open source and tailoring it to eve would the the only "hurdle" which would take all of 20 minutes to code.
suid0
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#12 - 2014-12-12 08:27:35 UTC
This is basically a ratting threat alert bot. You are trying to remove the human error of missing or not immediately seeing a threat enter local.

the entire enemy support fleet is dead except for one interdictor a titan could easily finish off with drones  - Commander Ted

Amely Miles
Second Exile
#13 - 2014-12-12 11:09:18 UTC
suid0 wrote:
This is basically a ratting threat alert bot. You are trying to remove the human error of missing or not immediately seeing a threat enter local.


Minus the bot part and add PVP that sentance would sound perfect... sooo like this ... This is basically a ratting and or threat alert program. You are trying to remove the human error of missing or not immediately seeing a threat enter local.

as the OP stated this is similar to what you would find with Evemon to help people remember to set there skill ques ....well thats human error correction


As I slipped my finger slowly inside her hole, I could immediately feel it getting wetter and wetter.

I took my finger back out and within seconds she was going down on me.

"I really need a new boat," I thought to myself.

suid0
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#14 - 2014-12-12 11:47:17 UTC
Amely Miles wrote:
suid0 wrote:
This is basically a ratting threat alert bot. You are trying to remove the human error of missing or not immediately seeing a threat enter local.


Minus the bot part and add PVP that sentance would sound perfect... sooo like this ... This is basically a ratting and or threat alert program. You are trying to remove the human error of missing or not immediately seeing a threat enter local.

as the OP stated this is similar to what you would find with Evemon to help people remember to set there skill ques ....well thats human error correction




Except that both of the examples you give use data that CCP has provided outside of the client, and also have 0 effect on anything PVP related.

OP is talking about an automated piece of software designed to watch local and alert of hostiles. It's a bot.

the entire enemy support fleet is dead except for one interdictor a titan could easily finish off with drones  - Commander Ted

IgnoreTheDroid
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#15 - 2014-12-12 14:23:13 UTC  |  Edited by: IgnoreTheDroid
suid0 wrote:
Amely Miles wrote:
suid0 wrote:
This is basically a ratting threat alert bot. You are trying to remove the human error of missing or not immediately seeing a threat enter local.


Minus the bot part and add PVP that sentance would sound perfect... sooo like this ... This is basically a ratting and or threat alert program. You are trying to remove the human error of missing or not immediately seeing a threat enter local.

as the OP stated this is similar to what you would find with Evemon to help people remember to set there skill ques ....well thats human error correction




Except that both of the examples you give use data that CCP has provided outside of the client, and also have 0 effect on anything PVP related.

OP is talking about an automated piece of software designed to watch local and alert of hostiles. It's a bot.


So? Bot is a genric term for any software that performs an automated task. EvEMon is a bot, market helpers like Elinore are bots, whatever your alliance uses to confirm you are in PL before joining private comms is a bot, and etc. All are allowed by CCP. What is your point? Unless you are trying to use the normal definition used by most people for games which is that it performs automated actions ingame then you are absolutely incorrect.

CCP also does not differentiate between a program intended for notifying someone to help them avoid a pvp situation or having being near to an empty skill queue. The end point is the same in that it notifies people if they are putting themselves into a bad situation but does not do anything to remove them from that situation.
Dragonaire
Here there be Dragons
#16 - 2014-12-12 18:35:28 UTC
If you are only wanting to change something that is now a visual alert into a audio one and it doesn't in anyway change the Eve client or do automate actions in the game CCP really can't say you can't use it as it could be consider an accessibility device which most nations have rules about. They can of course do like they did before and make changes so it can't work any more but they really can't stop you from doing anything on your own computer as long as its not directly affecting the client which the EULA covers.

Finds camping stations from the inside much easier. Designer of Yapeal for the Eve API. Check out the Yapeal PHP API Library thread.

Amely Miles
Second Exile
#17 - 2014-12-12 19:16:04 UTC
suid0 wrote:

Except that both of the examples you give use data that CCP has provided outside of the client, and also have 0 effect on anything PVP related.

OP is talking about an automated piece of software designed to watch local and alert of hostiles. It's a bot.


Are you saying that something PVP related is any different and some how better then PVE ?

also it's not automating anything that the human eye can't do already it's just making things easier for lazy people such as Evemon or EVEHQ or EFT or Elinor, Evernus or any other 3rd party program designed to make things easier for Eve Client excluding those that automate your movements

As I slipped my finger slowly inside her hole, I could immediately feel it getting wetter and wetter.

I took my finger back out and within seconds she was going down on me.

"I really need a new boat," I thought to myself.

suid0
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#18 - 2014-12-13 14:23:45 UTC
Amely Miles wrote:
suid0 wrote:

Except that both of the examples you give use data that CCP has provided outside of the client, and also have 0 effect on anything PVP related.

OP is talking about an automated piece of software designed to watch local and alert of hostiles. It's a bot.


Are you saying that something PVP related is any different and some how better then PVE ?


No, I never mentioned PVE.

My point was the examples you used all use data provided by CCP via their own API and is approved for use out of game. *

Amely Miles wrote:

also it's not automating anything that the human eye can't do already it's just making things easier for lazy people


incorrect, if you are not looking at that screen or local your eye will not alert you that someone has entered local, your bot would.

You should probably petition CCP to see if this is ok. Or better yet, given how easy it would be for CCP to implement this across the board (if they didn't already agree it would be bad for the game) post the idea in the Features & Ideas forum.

* One example I can think of is evemon cache scraping which CCP have expressed they are against but not yet punishing. But there is a chance that'll change in the future.

the entire enemy support fleet is dead except for one interdictor a titan could easily finish off with drones  - Commander Ted

IgnoreTheDroid
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#19 - 2014-12-14 06:09:26 UTC
suid0 wrote:

incorrect, if you are not looking at that screen or local your eye will not alert you that someone has entered local, your bot would.

You should probably petition CCP to see if this is ok. Or better yet, given how easy it would be for CCP to implement this across the board (if they didn't already agree it would be bad for the game) post the idea in the Features & Ideas forum.


No. It is not automating any action IN GAME. It does not warp you, it does not move you, it does not hit any keys, and it does not move the mouse. All it does is alert you which as far as I can tell from the EULA is not against it. What about out of game utilities like Garpa? That isn't information provided by CCP that is being used. Just because it isn't provided by CCP doesn't mean it is against the EULA. I am not sure why you keep bringing that up.

I don't foresee CCP every implementing this. I am not ignoring the negative effects it would have on game play. They just have zero bearing on what is considered EULA acceptable and not. Especially if it does not involve any form of cheating or automation of movement/flight/defenses/etc.

Can I petition CCP with a hypothetical? It is maybe an hour of basic coding away from being real but I won't build it fully until I am certain it won't get people banned. I can fully provide the source for the "image search".
Golden Gnu
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2014-12-14 13:47:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Golden Gnu
There is two ways to do this:
1) Ask CCP
2) Try your luck and risk getting banned.
No matter what everyone says here, those are the only two options you have.

No one here can give you permission.
No one here know what CCP will answer, if you ask them (and CCP won't answer it here on the forum, that is for sure).
No one here know for sure, if you will get banned if you try your luck.

Good luck to you!

Creator of jEveAssets - the asset manager

"Download is the meaning of life, upload is the meaning of intelligent life"

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