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Fighters and Off Grid assist

First post
Author
Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron
The Red Circle Inc.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#41 - 2014-12-05 10:43:58 UTC
Kesthely wrote:
Problem with what you are all forgetting is that it only takes one cloaky to have a good warpin and bump off the poss, or stay between the super and the pos and keep him tackled, even a starburst then doesn't free you. There is little risk if you do it for a limited time and not verry often, but if you do this alot, people will notice, and will setup traps for you. And even a small group can kill a single (super)carrier if it finds this tactic used often.


If you're tackled next to a POS with the shield offline, and you turn the shield on, what happens?

Kesthely wrote:
Secondly besides the still available risk, your also completly ignoreing the time and effort it takes to actually get these ships, all for a primarily defensive tactic.


It's barely any time and effort at all for the size of the advantage it gives.

Kesthely wrote:
Removeing this tactic will ONLY benefit offensive fleets and will reduce the chance of a smaller group to protect against a bigger group.


Of course it benefits offensive fleets, but that's the point. That this change would nerf an inherently defensive tactic is not remotely an argument against it, because the point is that that tactic is unreasonably strong. The numbers point does not, IMO, reflect reality. We regularly roam with less than 10 players, and meet these tactics in systems with 50 in local.

Kesthely wrote:
If your so blindly running in the same tactic of theirs more then once, you deserve to lose your fleet anyways. Use scouts or baits and perhaps a interceptor with a cyno to drop ontop of the (super)carrier. Theres enough possible ways to make it a verry bad day for the player(s) who use these tactics if you know they use them. Use them instead of shooting OP to a mechanic you clearly only see in a one sided way


We don't actually die to it that often, because ofc we do have scouts. The problem is that it means we just decide not to bother engaging because we know we'll get kerbstomped.


Sarah Nahrnid wrote:

You want to deal with fighter assign? Kill the carrier. It aint hard.

If I were to assign fighters from my Archon from a pos shield, it takes me 90s to do a 180 degree turn, then I have to motor back in (pro tip, webs and scrams makes this markedly harder for the carrier) and no, you don't need caps to kill caps either.


Killing the carrier isn't hard - getting in a position where you can actually attack it at all certainly is.
Firstly, people set these things up well before a gang is actually in system, they just have it ready when they need it, so the time it takes to turn and be back at the edge of the shield is not relevant. Secondly, they often simply sit next to the POS and online the shield when they need it, no need to burn anywhere at all.

To the rest of your 'points' - we're more than happy to die in a fire when roaming, and what we want are fights with home defence fleets, not ganks. If someone brings a fleet and outplays us and wipes us out, then that's good on them, they'll get a lot of Bravos. What we object to is defensive tactics that involve practically no risk on the part of the defender, and that have basically no practicable counter.
Sarah Nahrnid
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#42 - 2014-12-05 11:33:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarah Nahrnid
Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron wrote:
Kesthely wrote:
Problem with what you are all forgetting is that it only takes one cloaky to have a good warpin and bump off the poss, or stay between the super and the pos and keep him tackled, even a starburst then doesn't free you. There is little risk if you do it for a limited time and not verry often, but if you do this alot, people will notice, and will setup traps for you. And even a small group can kill a single (super)carrier if it finds this tactic used often.


...


Sarah Nahrnid wrote:

You want to deal with fighter assign? Kill the carrier. It aint hard.

If I were to assign fighters from my Archon from a pos shield, it takes me 90s to do a 180 degree turn, then I have to motor back in (pro tip, webs and scrams makes this markedly harder for the carrier) and no, you don't need caps to kill caps either.


Killing the carrier isn't hard - getting in a position where you can actually attack it at all certainly is.
Firstly, people set these things up well before a gang is actually in system, they just have it ready when they need it, so the time it takes to turn and be back at the edge of the shield is not relevant. Secondly, they often simply sit next to the POS and online the shield when they need it, no need to burn anywhere at all.

To the rest of your 'points' - we're more than happy to die in a fire when roaming, and what we want are fights with home defence fleets, not ganks. If someone brings a fleet and outplays us and wipes us out, then that's good on them, they'll get a lot of Bravos. What we object to is defensive tactics that involve practically no risk on the part of the defender, and that have basically no practicable counter.


Ok, how about this friend, I know this is kinda out there but run with me on this Big smile

Scram + web the fighters then kill them. A shocking tactic albiet a game changer, I know.
Smart bombs also work well too.

But, you're the exact same person I'm talking about. Instead of coming up with something (taloses come to mind for ganking caps), you run to the forums and expect CCP to nerf everything so you can win.

Apparently gone are the days of people actually thinking outside of the box.

It's no ones fault but your own, that pathetic small gang can't come up with something to kill a capital (Pro tip: You can kill fighters, as stated above)

TL;DR it destroys nothing. Shoot the fighters down or kill the carrier, hell, do both! Remember, they're just drones like any other. They CAN be shot and killed, easily.
Necharo Rackham
The Red Circle Inc.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#43 - 2014-12-05 11:50:58 UTC
Sarah Nahrnid wrote:
You're all cry babies, seriously HTFU!

You want to deal with fighter assign? Kill the carrier. It aint hard.

If I were to assign fighters from my Archon from a pos shield, it takes me 90s to do a 180 degree turn, then I have to motor back in (pro tip, webs and scrams makes this markedly harder for the carrier)


They don't assign fighters from outside the POS shield. They assign the fighters from next to tower - with the pos password dialogue open, that's exactly one tick to put the pos field up (and no - you don't have to unanchor and repackage the tower before setting it up).

We don't have any issue with taking fights with carriers on grid. We do that all the time.

There's also the wider issue, of whether Fighters should be able to track inties.
King Fu Hostile
Shiva Furnace
#44 - 2014-12-05 11:51:16 UTC
Why not warp the carrier to grid then? Oh right, it might die, and we can't have risk in my EVE. Only for others.


Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron
The Red Circle Inc.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#45 - 2014-12-05 12:07:56 UTC
King Fu Hostile wrote:
Why not warp the carrier to grid then? Oh right, it might die, and we can't have risk in my EVE. Only for others.




This is exactly the problem.

Quote:
Ok, how about this friend, I know this is kinda out there but run with me on this Big smile

Scram + web the fighters then kill them. A shocking tactic albiet a game changer, I know.
Smart bombs also work well too.


Given their cruiser sized EHP, interceptor speed and frigate sig this is easier said than done. It also missed the point - why should I have to fight the fighters when the ship that launched them is sitting perfectly safe next to the POS?

If the carrier was on grid and at risk, I would have no complaint about the fighters whatsoever.

As a more general note to people saying "You can counter this with X". We're well aware that the ships are not invulnerable and this tactic can be beaten, but again that's not the point. Consider a hypothetical ship that can project 1500 dps out to 40km with Talos tracking and a HACs speed and tank. Clearly monstrously OP and the fact that they can still be killed would not be a valid argument against nerfing it - the same applies here.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2014-12-05 12:46:21 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
The simplest test of balance and indeed, EVE in general is this:

Check the risk vs reward skew.


Reward: Huge
Risk: LOL



Failing that - common sense: CCP and most of us are against off grid boosts, how on earth you can claim off grid DPS is somehow ok is utterly mind blowing.

This is right up there with cloaked ships being able to lock and fire cloaked!
S'ti Ca'zz
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#47 - 2014-12-05 13:08:11 UTC  |  Edited by: S'ti Ca'zz
+1 Nors

something MUST be done to stop this crap

the speed at which assigned fighter kill subcaps without ANY risk is INSANE!

if I check the KB of the last time we got 'fighter asigned raped' nearly all the top DPS on ALL ships that died came from the assigned fighters...

The fight lasted less then 3 minutes...

They didn't even need to use those fighters! we would have lost nontheless yet it would at lest have been a decent scrap, one which I'd have been perfectly fine in losing...

It just felt so OP and wrong and IMHO something has to be done to stop this lamo risk-avoiding Cheese
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2014-12-05 13:11:51 UTC
You could also make the carrier broadcast a beacon a-la a cyno so people can instantly warp to it.

>insert fluff reason here
Leyete Wulf
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#49 - 2014-12-05 13:56:18 UTC
Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron wrote:
If you want to put a Nyx' worth of DPS on grid, you should have to risk a Nyx.


This

CCP devs have said time and time again that the main balancing point in EVE should be risk vs reward. The problem here isn't the carriers/supers its the 'POS tanking'. It's a mechanic which is being used in a way that negates risk without negating reward.
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
#50 - 2014-12-05 15:02:10 UTC
Sarah Nahrnid wrote:
Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron wrote:
Kesthely wrote:
Problem with what you are all forgetting is that it only takes one cloaky to have a good warpin and bump off the poss, or stay between the super and the pos and keep him tackled, even a starburst then doesn't free you. There is little risk if you do it for a limited time and not verry often, but if you do this alot, people will notice, and will setup traps for you. And even a small group can kill a single (super)carrier if it finds this tactic used often.


...


Sarah Nahrnid wrote:

You want to deal with fighter assign? Kill the carrier. It aint hard.

If I were to assign fighters from my Archon from a pos shield, it takes me 90s to do a 180 degree turn, then I have to motor back in (pro tip, webs and scrams makes this markedly harder for the carrier) and no, you don't need caps to kill caps either.


Killing the carrier isn't hard - getting in a position where you can actually attack it at all certainly is.
Firstly, people set these things up well before a gang is actually in system, they just have it ready when they need it, so the time it takes to turn and be back at the edge of the shield is not relevant. Secondly, they often simply sit next to the POS and online the shield when they need it, no need to burn anywhere at all.

To the rest of your 'points' - we're more than happy to die in a fire when roaming, and what we want are fights with home defence fleets, not ganks. If someone brings a fleet and outplays us and wipes us out, then that's good on them, they'll get a lot of Bravos. What we object to is defensive tactics that involve practically no risk on the part of the defender, and that have basically no practicable counter.


Ok, how about this friend, I know this is kinda out there but run with me on this Big smile

Scram + web the fighters then kill them. A shocking tactic albiet a game changer, I know.
Smart bombs also work well too.

But, you're the exact same person I'm talking about. Instead of coming up with something (taloses come to mind for ganking caps), you run to the forums and expect CCP to nerf everything so you can win.

Apparently gone are the days of people actually thinking outside of the box.

It's no ones fault but your own, that pathetic small gang can't come up with something to kill a capital (Pro tip: You can kill fighters, as stated above)

TL;DR it destroys nothing. Shoot the fighters down or kill the carrier, hell, do both! Remember, they're just drones like any other. They CAN be shot and killed, easily.



last time I checked fighters ignored scrams for warping aka they can always warp.(this might be changed now)

Show me the interceptor or the cruiser that smartbombs and wins against a 10k hp before bonuses or resists. Also each fighter is only ~200dps so you have to kill all of them and hope the carrier/super doesn't just assign more
Sarah Nahrnid
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#51 - 2014-12-05 15:17:34 UTC
Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron wrote:
King Fu Hostile wrote:
Why not warp the carrier to grid then? Oh right, it might die, and we can't have risk in my EVE. Only for others.




This is exactly the problem.

Quote:
Ok, how about this friend, I know this is kinda out there but run with me on this Big smile

Scram + web the fighters then kill them. A shocking tactic albiet a game changer, I know.
Smart bombs also work well too.


Given their cruiser sized EHP, interceptor speed and frigate sig this is easier said than done. It also missed the point - why should I have to fight the fighters when the ship that launched them is sitting perfectly safe next to the POS?

If the carrier was on grid and at risk, I would have no complaint about the fighters whatsoever.

As a more general note to people saying "You can counter this with X". We're well aware that the ships are not invulnerable and this tactic can be beaten, but again that's not the point. Consider a hypothetical ship that can project 1500 dps out to 40km with Talos tracking and a HACs speed and tank. Clearly monstrously OP and the fact that they can still be killed would not be a valid argument against nerfing it - the same applies here.


Yeah they do have Cruiser sized EHP, lets not forget that fighters are 5k m3 each. A carrier (thanny excluded IIRC) can only carry 1.5 flights of fighters. But for a carrier to be able to do what you're saing, they're fitting for exactly that purpose. Not over powered, you're being outsmarted.

Your arguement is flawed and here's why:

Person A knows you come into that system to farm this person/corp/alliance/whatever for kills.
They want to kill you so they use something shiny (X ship for this purpose)
Then put their carrier next to a pos then assists fighters to X ship (as you said above)
Trap is set.
You being foolish, fell for this hook line and sinker, multiple times apparently and dare I say, never thought of using standard ewar (webs, points, tracking disruption, target painting) on drone
You and your buddies got killed

This happens more than once and rather than coming up with something effective you decided to come here and sook.

Claiming this trap is Over-powered, you can't beat something, you're too unoriginal to realise you were being baited into a trap consistently, when you likely already had ALL the best ways to counter this.

So back to my point last post and the post before, KILL THE FIGHTERS. Web and Scram them. They will die.

This is apparently a concept that's foreign to you. Drones can be targetted and killed, fighters with their cruiser sized EHP die pretty damn easily from a little focussed fire. An unmanned pos can destroy fighters, I know, I've lost some recently.
Sarah Nahrnid
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#52 - 2014-12-05 15:18:53 UTC
Lady Rift wrote:
Sarah Nahrnid wrote:
Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron wrote:
Kesthely wrote:
Problem with what you are all forgetting is that it only takes one cloaky to have a good warpin and bump off the poss, or stay between the super and the pos and keep him tackled, even a starburst then doesn't free you. There is little risk if you do it for a limited time and not verry often, but if you do this alot, people will notice, and will setup traps for you. And even a small group can kill a single (super)carrier if it finds this tactic used often.


...


Sarah Nahrnid wrote:

You want to deal with fighter assign? Kill the carrier. It aint hard.

If I were to assign fighters from my Archon from a pos shield, it takes me 90s to do a 180 degree turn, then I have to motor back in (pro tip, webs and scrams makes this markedly harder for the carrier) and no, you don't need caps to kill caps either.


Killing the carrier isn't hard - getting in a position where you can actually attack it at all certainly is.
Firstly, people set these things up well before a gang is actually in system, they just have it ready when they need it, so the time it takes to turn and be back at the edge of the shield is not relevant. Secondly, they often simply sit next to the POS and online the shield when they need it, no need to burn anywhere at all.

To the rest of your 'points' - we're more than happy to die in a fire when roaming, and what we want are fights with home defence fleets, not ganks. If someone brings a fleet and outplays us and wipes us out, then that's good on them, they'll get a lot of Bravos. What we object to is defensive tactics that involve practically no risk on the part of the defender, and that have basically no practicable counter.


Ok, how about this friend, I know this is kinda out there but run with me on this Big smile

Scram + web the fighters then kill them. A shocking tactic albiet a game changer, I know.
Smart bombs also work well too.

But, you're the exact same person I'm talking about. Instead of coming up with something (taloses come to mind for ganking caps), you run to the forums and expect CCP to nerf everything so you can win.

Apparently gone are the days of people actually thinking outside of the box.

It's no ones fault but your own, that pathetic small gang can't come up with something to kill a capital (Pro tip: You can kill fighters, as stated above)

TL;DR it destroys nothing. Shoot the fighters down or kill the carrier, hell, do both! Remember, they're just drones like any other. They CAN be shot and killed, easily.



last time I checked fighters ignored scrams for warping aka they can always warp.(this might be changed now)

Show me the interceptor or the cruiser that smartbombs and wins against a 10k hp before bonuses or resists. Also each fighter is only ~200dps so you have to kill all of them and hope the carrier/super doesn't just assign more


Scrams DO affect fighters. Let them assign more, their drone bay is not unlimited and you're causing them a headache to get more. You win the ISK war and farm their tears because it's a **** around getting fighters brought anywhere from empire.
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
#53 - 2014-12-05 16:16:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Rift
Sarah Nahrnid wrote:



Scrams DO affect fighters. Let them assign more, their drone bay is not unlimited and you're causing them a headache to get more. You win the ISK war and farm their tears because it's a **** around getting fighters brought anywhere from empire.



fighters don't give kill mails so the actual record of the fight will more than likely be for the team with fighters and the other 4 with 1000 dps that can hit frigs will destroy you.

Is that scrams stop there MWD or there warping off?
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#54 - 2014-12-05 16:26:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Sarah Nahrnid wrote:

Scrams DO affect fighters. Let them assign more, their drone bay is not unlimited and you're causing them a headache to get more. You win the ISK war and farm their tears because it's a **** around getting fighters brought anywhere from empire.


Fighter replenishment is hardly a big issue (if it is you really need to give your industrialists a good kicking) - they are pretty basic to make, relatively small volume to shift if you used compressed stuff and make them out in null and sitting at the POS they can effortlessly resupply.

There is little useful that can be done by a small roaming gang scramming fighters they have the EHP and DPS to win a war of attrition and will mostly be alphaing through lower tanked stuff.

While I'm not a proponent of forcing links on grid (unscannable another matter) I see this as being pretty similar to the reasoning that meant links could no longer be run inside a FF, etc.
Klarion Sythis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#55 - 2014-12-05 16:58:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Klarion Sythis
It seems to me like a lot of people are talking out of their asses in this thread. A lot of people obviously haven't faced what we're talking about here recently or they say "lol just blob it". While blobbing is certainly effective, it still doesn't change the fact that 2 interceptors shouldn't be able to wreck a small gang.

Fighters from a typical ratting carrier, while dangerous with the right mods, can be dealt with and we do it all the time and take down groups of carriers in the process. Fighters from a purpose built super carrier get to the point that they can alpha down most roaming ships and chase down interceptors easily. There are systems that are becoming known because they're cyno jammed, bubbled to hell, and have a Revenant in that dead end system that's fit something like this. They use it for ratting support, then just ship to an interceptor and use it for pvp support if someone comes in system.

Might I call your attention to the system of 4DH-ST? Feel free to take your blob there. Check out 24I-FE while you're on that list.

The problem here isn't that super carriers can be fit to blast subcaps to great effect, it's that you aren't really risking it when you do so. If they warp that Revenant in and start tearing apart my gang with it, GG, that's what a 100+ billion isk investment gets you in my opinion. Do that from the safety of a POS in a cyno jammed and heavily bubbled system, then it's basically risk free and reminiscent of the kind of area denial AoE doomsdays created. Small gangs just don't go into those systems anymore.

Here's a video of someone assigning fighters specifically to make fun of how broken it is.

If you want to bring that kind of firepower to bear, you need to put your ship on grid to do it. The changes to drone mods affecting fighters is what made this an unbalanced problem. There are almost always unintended consequences when making tweaks and this is one of them. It needs to be adjusted accordingly.
Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron
The Red Circle Inc.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#56 - 2014-12-05 17:27:00 UTC
Sarah Nahrnid wrote:
Yeah they do have Cruiser sized EHP, lets not forget that fighters are 5k m3 each. A carrier (thanny excluded IIRC) can only carry 1.5 flights of fighters. But for a carrier to be able to do what you're saing, they're fitting for exactly that purpose. Not over powered, you're being outsmarted.


You're still missing the point. The fighters are not overpowered. Carriers and supers are not necessarily overpowered. What is overpowered is the ability for those ships to project their DPS offgrid, whilst remaining almost completely safe themselves.

Sarah Nahrnid wrote:
Your arguement is flawed and here's why:

Person A knows you come into that system to farm this person/corp/alliance/whatever for kills.
They want to kill you so they use something shiny (X ship for this purpose)
Then put their carrier next to a pos then assists fighters to X ship (as you said above)
Trap is set.
You being foolish, fell for this hook line and sinker, multiple times apparently and dare I say, never thought of using standard ewar (webs, points, tracking disruption, target painting) on drone
You and your buddies got killed

This happens more than once and rather than coming up with something effective you decided to come here and sook.

Claiming this trap is Over-powered, you can't beat something, you're too unoriginal to realise you were being baited into a trap consistently, when you likely already had ALL the best ways to counter this.


None of this is remotely a counter to my argument - you're basically just calling me stupid for dying to something that's ridiculous and overpowered.

Sarah Nahrnid wrote:
So back to my point last post and the post before, KILL THE FIGHTERS. Web and Scram them. They will die.

This is apparently a concept that's foreign to you. Drones can be targetted and killed, fighters with their cruiser sized EHP die pretty damn easily from a little focussed fire. An unmanned pos can destroy fighters, I know, I've lost some recently.


This has already been pretty comprehensively addressed.


Thanks all for the input - keeping this discussion alive is the best way to get CCP to do something about it.
DaeHan Minhyok
Logical Outcomes
#57 - 2014-12-05 17:56:44 UTC
So here's a few things you missed.

1) when a carrier enters pos shields it loses connection with its drones, if the fighters/bombers are in warp the carrier will lose connection and the drones will need to be scanned down, super annoying, no punn intended.

2) and more importantly, the stats of the fighters/bombers are based off the ship assisted to, not the carrier. Therefore your friends will need their own damage mods and fighters/bombers skills trained. So while the nyx or other carrier can do the quoted 1200dps per 5 drones the assistees dont.

Also, try flying caps before you suggest changes, you'll find reality differs from EFT.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2014-12-05 18:01:13 UTC
I have an idea for a fix: make fighters and fighter bombers only usable with a drone siege module running. This would anchor the carrier in place for the duration of the module while costing fuel to run the module, and a high slot. You could fit both a triage module and a drone siege module, but you could only run one of the two at a time.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#59 - 2014-12-05 18:15:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
DaeHan Minhyok wrote:
So here's a few things you missed.

1) when a carrier enters pos shields it loses connection with its drones, if the fighters/bombers are in warp the carrier will lose connection and the drones will need to be scanned down, super annoying, no punn intended.

2) and more importantly, the stats of the fighters/bombers are based off the ship assisted to, not the carrier. Therefore your friends will need their own damage mods and fighters/bombers skills trained. So while the nyx or other carrier can do the quoted 1200dps per 5 drones the assistees dont.

Also, try flying caps before you suggest changes, you'll find reality differs from EFT.


Neither of which is true - though the first one is a bit more complicated as sometimes they won't return but generally they will warp to the edge of the FF and slowboat back to the carrier when the cause of loss of drone functionality is a forcefield it doesn't work the same as other loss of connection (usually).

EDIT: There is a skill the assignee needs trained but assigned fighters still inherit the stat bonuses from mods on the original carrier - fairly easy to see as they will be doing 4-5km/s when assigned to a ship with no drone mods and a pilot with only basic drone skills.

Maybe try flying caps ;)
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
#60 - 2014-12-05 18:22:49 UTC
DaeHan Minhyok wrote:
So here's a few things you missed.

1) when a carrier enters pos shields it loses connection with its drones, if the fighters/bombers are in warp the carrier will lose connection and the drones will need to be scanned down, super annoying, no punn intended.

2) and more importantly, the stats of the fighters/bombers are based off the ship assisted to, not the carrier. Therefore your friends will need their own damage mods and fighters/bombers skills trained. So while the nyx or other carrier can do the quoted 1200dps per 5 drones the assistees dont.

Also, try flying caps before you suggest changes, you'll find reality differs from EFT.



only stats that matter on the assigned ship is drone 5 all others come from the assigner