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New Skill to give (back?) interest in Industry Specialization
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Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#21 - 2014-12-05 01:39:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Training this Production Efficiency skill to V was never a requirement to be profitable, that is something CCP made up in order to justify their decision. There are many T1 items, T1 frigates for instance, which even with PE IV or III still gave the producer a very nice profit. Not as much as with the Skill at V, but that is to be expected if you don't put some effort and training into the activity. Calling that compulsory, however, is exaggeration.



This. The secret in the secret sauce was a good me bpo/bpc. The t1 items smaller crap...lets be honest...you make this to make t2. Going into t2 production and didn't have these lined up...that's on them really too. In the old scheme Mnay t2 ships also money makers....if the source bp was all good. Uber production skills crap bpo/bpc me you were still losing out to average production skills and great bpo/bpc me. That many failed to grasp this and caused a bad game change is sad imo.


Now I do recall ccp's other reason given in the long blog for these changes long ago was it simplified math. Apparently ME was making people think about numbers. Those to lazy (or stupid) to find the many online bpo calcs that did the ME calcs for you and all you had to do was work out if the trimming off a few trit here, a few pye here was cost effective needed less "work" it seems.

Some line of crap about indy should be getting stuff to market and not deal with all the fiddly bits about getting to market with a better bottom line from the manufacturing process aspect.

Which is utter bs imo. If the devs thought this was sound....man I hope this mindset didn't spread to the business side of the house at ccp. Trimming costs internally especially in the manufacturing process is basic business 101. Making and selling 1,000,000 pens a year, improve the process to shave off even 10 cents per unit....looking at a decent profit off that.
Kei Thoras
Fundation For Logistics and Collection Operations
#22 - 2014-12-05 12:10:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Kei Thoras
Anhenka wrote:

Because a noobie flying a t1 logi scythe is of benefit (far less than a logi V scimi, but they still help), but a manufacturer with less than perfect material efficiency skills can only be a liability in a market where the margin of profit on t1 is often less than the cost of materials saved by taking the ME skill from 4 to 5. Since in order to compete you MUST have the ME skill to V, it had as much actual "choice" in if you should train it as the "choice" of choosing to not upgrade your medical clone.


Frostys Virpio wrote:

It's probably because player saw the spreadsheets and arrived to the conclusion that there was no money in industry before the skill was at V because of the thin profit margins while a non all V pilot in space still give you more than no pilot in space. It's mostly a perception that CCP wanted to stop because they probably had feedback about people not even wanting to try because of it. S&I forum would tell new people there was no money in industry unless you were going deep with the skills so many people could not "just try" as they were told they would only lose money in the adventure.


And again, why are you focusing only on selling T1 ships on the market when Industry is so much more than that ?
Producing ships for your corp is not an option in your opinion? This is sad and unrealistic if you see industry just as a personal money maker based on most popular T1 stuff sales (the real profit is not here anyway, ME V or not).

This +100% agree with Rivr Luzade & Zan Shiro last posts.

To those who say having time bonus on production is fine: No it's not.
To quote my first post (which obviously hasn't been read by some participants in the thread):
Kei Thoras wrote:

Several skills to improve production over time: useful for the (very) tiny part of industry specialists who have the resources, the demand, and time to fill permanently their whole production queue. Totally useless for majority of players who are industrialists who supply their corp, make a bit of ISK on their side, but haven't production to do on a daily basis.


... which makes me think: Is being an Industry specialist supposed to be interesting only when you are a hardcore gamer having his production queues permanently full ?...
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#23 - 2014-12-05 14:19:08 UTC
Kei Thoras wrote:
[quote=Anhenka]

And again, why are you focusing only on selling T1 ships on the market when Industry is so much more than that ?
Producing ships for your corp is not an option in your opinion? This is sad and unrealistic if you see industry just as a personal money maker based on most popular T1 stuff sales (the real profit is not here anyway, ME V or not).

This +100% agree with Rivr Luzade & Zan Shiro last posts.

To those who say having time bonus on production is fine: No it's not.
To quote my first post (which obviously hasn't been read by some participants in the thread):
[


The solution was not to tell newbies to got produce T2 because the basic and easy to produce stuff is a money sink for them is what made the change happen. No matter how you slice it, if the career path is a complete sink for a beginner, it won't stay like that. The newbies didn't have the ISK/assets to enter the T2 market. Hell they most likely didn't even have the knowledge about the BS that was research slots lockout also preventing them from going into the world of good ME BPC/BPO. Why would you produce for your corp when your cost end up being higher than buying from the market?

No matter who you produce stuff for, be it the market, yourself, your corp or your alliance, if your production cost end up bieng higher than the market, you will lose ISK and a newbie never has the ISK to lose as he does not have months/years of gameplay behind him where he could build an asset/ISK base.
Kei Thoras
Fundation For Logistics and Collection Operations
#24 - 2014-12-05 16:15:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Kei Thoras
Frostys Virpio wrote:

The solution was not to tell newbies to got produce T2 because the basic and easy to produce stuff is a money sink for them is what made the change happen. No matter how you slice it, if the career path is a complete sink for a beginner, it won't stay like that. The newbies didn't have the ISK/assets to enter the T2 market. Hell they most likely didn't even have the knowledge about the BS that was research slots lockout also preventing them from going into the world of good ME BPC/BPO. Why would you produce for your corp when your cost end up being higher than buying from the market?

No matter who you produce stuff for, be it the market, yourself, your corp or your alliance, if your production cost end up bieng higher than the market, you will lose ISK and a newbie never has the ISK to lose as he does not have months/years of gameplay behind him where he could build an asset/ISK base.


The barrier for newbies to start directly in the Industry is still there, ME skill available or not, in the form of the cost to acquire BPO. Acquiring BPOs is very costly, and is not advised for new players. It's always advised to have another activity in parallel when you start to play as an industrial. Even now, without ME skill around, you can't seriously expect a newbie to make profit from the start while starting in the industry field. Unless the BPOs become a lot cheaper in the future (and I don't see that happening any time soon), starting to make profit in Industry will be always a long term goal.

Beside, I don't think you understood my point when I mentioned "Working for your corp" as an alternative:
If your corp is going to make you pay for the materials the same price as it would be sold on the market, then indeed, the newbie will loose ISK in the process. But if this is the way your corp encourages newbies in the industry field and prefer to rely on the market to establish prices for your corpmates, then there's no place for industry newbies at all in this corp. The alternative I was talking about is the case where the corp provides materials at a price significantly under the market price for any reason (huge stock already on the local market and it takes time to be sold completely, or just for the reason to help & give work to a new member, or just because the corp is running low in ISK so it's better to mine materials and directly produce stuff internaly without relying on the market offers, etc...). In this case, the newbie won't loose ISK and can make a little profit.

But all in all, the classic way to start Industry is coupling with mining, selling the materials mined on the market to get ISK that will be used to acquire BPOs. Again, this problem is inherent to the industry field, ME skill or not. So this not a valid reason either to oppose to a ME Skill. CCP needs to find a revolutionary idea if they really want to make Industry profitable from the start for newbies. And it's not removing permanently a ME skill that will change this fact.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#25 - 2014-12-06 03:39:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Kei Thoras wrote:
[quote=Frostys Virpio]
The barrier for newbies to start directly in the Industry is still there, ME skill available or not, in the form of the cost to acquire BPO. Acquiring BPOs is very costly, and is not advised for new players. It's always advised to have another activity in parallel when you start to play as an industrial. Even now, without ME skill around, you can't seriously expect a newbie to make profit from the start while starting in the industry field. Unless the BPOs become a lot cheaper in the future (and I don't see that happening any time soon), starting to make profit in Industry will be always a long term goal.


This....

TBH with my combat char dying a lot in 0.0 when I fired up indy as side line (this alt in fact) my lag time was getting the isk to buy decent bp's. My limiting factor wasn't the ME skill some hated. That in fact trained quite easily while I tried to have this alt make isk running distribution missions when the combat main was struggling to keep up pvp fleets in bad months withnhis ratting isk and couldn't wire this alt some isk.

I tbh etc'd to plexed this process a few times to start. I could justify this as I have the means in real life and unlike a say ratting ship (imo using rl money for stuff that can blow up is just bad...) ...my bpo once bought was safe and sound in a station for life. As it would never be lost (barring me deleting on accident or lost in gank if moved but rarely did that after the initial jita buy).

So noobs option is plan b.....they buy copies. They are already in the hole there. Noob A and me in a statistical anomaly sell the same item at the same time. Noob A made said item off my copies (which I mark up a bit). My bottom line is much better for profit.

Many of my bp's I have owned for 5 years at least , they are paid off. Noob A....is covering my markup costs in his bp buy. I can isk war him. No skin off my nose really. I got that money from him anyway at the bpc sale lol.
Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#26 - 2014-12-06 04:43:09 UTC
Kei Thoras wrote:
The barrier for newbies to start directly in the Industry is still there, ME skill available or not, in the form of the cost to acquire BPO. Acquiring BPOs is very costly, and is not advised for new players. It's always advised to have another activity in parallel when you start to play as an industrial. Even now, without ME skill around, you can't seriously expect a newbie to make profit from the start while starting in the industry field. Unless the BPOs become a lot cheaper in the future (and I don't see that happening any time soon), starting to make profit in Industry will be always a long term goal.

Which BPO? When I was a newbie, I purchased ammo BPOs, which were (and are) cheap. The biggest hurdle at the time was getting them researched, which generally involved a 20+ day wait time to get a slot. Now, those slots are gone and it takes around 8 days to get perfect ME on a Cruise Missile BPO (5 mil ISK) with minimal Science training; starting from nothing you can be profitably building ammo now half-way before your trial expires.

The price of the blueprints is not a barrier to industry for the simple fact that if the BPOs cost that much to you, then you probably can't afford to tie up your ISK in the materials needed for production anyway.
Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
#27 - 2014-12-06 08:04:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Gadget Helmsdottir
Komi Toran wrote:
Kei Thoras wrote:
The barrier for newbies to start directly in the Industry is still there, ME skill available or not, in the form of the cost to acquire BPO. Acquiring BPOs is very costly, and is not advised for new players. It's always advised to have another activity in parallel when you start to play as an industrial. Even now, without ME skill around, you can't seriously expect a newbie to make profit from the start while starting in the industry field. Unless the BPOs become a lot cheaper in the future (and I don't see that happening any time soon), starting to make profit in Industry will be always a long term goal.

Which BPO? When I was a newbie, I purchased ammo BPOs, which were (and are) cheap. The biggest hurdle at the time was getting them researched, which generally involved a 20+ day wait time to get a slot. Now, those slots are gone and it takes around 8 days to get perfect ME on a Cruise Missile BPO (5 mil ISK) with minimal Science training; starting from nothing you can be profitably building ammo now half-way before your trial expires.

The price of the blueprints is not a barrier to industry for the simple fact that if the BPOs cost that much to you, then you probably can't afford to tie up your ISK in the materials needed for production anyway.


This.

A new pilot directly out of the box isn't going to start making battleships. They've got to start with the smaller things like ammo and drones. With some research into their market, the new industrialist can add in modules, then ships, and then whatever strikes their fancy. However, with the removal of the research slots, and the removal of the ME skill, they can make a profit in actual manufacturing if they're careful.

This doesn't remove any of the work, however. The budding industrialist will still need to research BPO's, research the market and ways of getting cheap materials, research (or develop an instinct for) how much ISK to invest and how much to keep in reserve, and research which skills to train up to give her an edge. Still, the new gal can start actually making money on day one, even if it is just a small amount, and develop a larger margin from there.

--Gadget

Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist

Given an hour to save New Eden, how would respected scientist, Albertus Eisenstein compose his thoughts? "Fifty-five minutes to define the problem; save the galaxy in five."
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