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Meaningful consequences for low standings and pirate behaviour

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Jared Bertrand
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2014-12-04 20:02:48 UTC
So here I am, preparing to go back to null to avoid mindless ganking, and discussing with friends the lack of consequences for said actions.

As things currently stand, illegal behavior is "punished" by the slap on the wrist of losing your cheap catalyst. The security penalty is easily worked around with tags, or if the pirate in question is feeling cheeky, he pods his way around and picks up a new ship from a handy Orca alt. These pirates are also able to hide behind the skirts of law abiding NPC corporations, there-by avoiding constant wardecs.

I'm advocating a change to this. Should a player's security and faction standing drop below a certain point, the player should be dropped out of said lawful NPC corp and be moved to an NPC pirate corporation. (Yes I know under our current system we can't have players joining pirate corps, and this would need to change) Once said players are a part of such an unlawful pirate corporation, they would be legitimate targets of opportunity to players in Hi-Sec.

In addition to players hunting these pirates, house navies would agress these unlawful residents in defense of their empire space in an attempt to keep unlawful pilots out of law abiding space.

This change to the behavior of navies would make them proactive defenders of lawful citizens, while concord would remain the punishers of unlawful actions in hi-sec.

How does a person become a pirate you ask? Simple, for any unlawful activity a player participates in, the player's standing with their NPC corp decreases. Commit enough illegal acts and your NPC corp will kick you out and you land in a pirate corporation. Ideally a player could be considered a pirate in one empire, but not in others. This would allow for diverse player interactions, and also promote boarder trade hubs between the major factions.

So here are the ideas thought up by myself and a few friends. Bring on the critiques and the flames. I'm sure we'll have the gank community weighing in and calling foul. Can't wait to read the responses.
Lipot
The StarJammers
#2 - 2014-12-04 20:06:46 UTC
I totally agree with this. With the ways that are in place correct their standing, it would give a new area for people focus on. I, for one, have always debated about joining one of the pirate factions for a change and this would give me the chance to do so. And when I get bored, grab some tags and return to high sec as a "reformed" pilot.
Arden Elenduil
Unlimited Bear Works
#3 - 2014-12-04 20:11:54 UTC
The main issue i see with that, is that most players will either ignore it since they're -10 anyway. Or simply make shell corporations which they can easily reform if wardecced (IF they're inconvenienced by that in the first place)

That said, quit frickin' whining about highsec being unsafe, it's safe enough already.
Most of the forumdwellers know this, so indeed, prepare to be flamed
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#4 - 2014-12-04 20:13:06 UTC
Came expecting a hisec ganking whine thread.

Am leaving pleasantly disappointed.

I'm sure that there are a multitude of details that would need to be worked out, but I rather like the general idea of "good guy" and "bad guy" NPC corps.

+1

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Mag's
Azn Empire
#5 - 2014-12-04 20:33:06 UTC
TBH it just looks like more 'Please give me more NPC mechanics' rather than, 'Let's see what we can do ourselves'.

If you really think the consequences are not high enough, then make them pay more yourself. Instead of moaning about it with your friends, do something about it.

Of course not all pirates use Catalysts and hang out in High sec, but hey it's a brush so let's tar folks with it.
I'd like to see just how many actually sit in NPC corps tbh. I can't recall seeing any, but you may know.



Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Jared Bertrand
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2014-12-04 20:38:07 UTC
Mag's wrote:
TBH it just looks like more 'Please give me more NPC mechanics' rather than, 'Let's see what we can do ourselves'.

If you really think the consequences are not high enough, then make them pay more yourself. Instead of moaning about it with your friends, do something about it.

Of course not all pirates use Catalysts and hang out in High sec, but hey it's a brush so let's tar folks with it.
I'd like to see just how many actually sit in NPC corps tbh. I can't recall seeing any, but you may know.





Cool, the old "Do more yourself" line. I happen to like my standings and security status as I try to play a law abiding citizen. WIth ganks all you can do is watch it coming or run if you're lucky enough to get past all the bumping that is used in place of warp disruption. So, Mr. Ganker, please try again on the veiled "your incompetant" insult.

I am asking for a method to proactively protect myself like I can do in null sec. The reason I'm am moving back there for the time being. So I can shoot at people who are clearly agressive and intending me harm.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#7 - 2014-12-04 20:40:17 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Jared Bertrand wrote:
Should a player's security and faction standing drop below a certain point, the player should be dropped out of said lawful NPC corp and be moved to an NPC pirate corporation. (Yes I know under our current system we can't have players joining pirate corps, and this would need to change) Once said players are a part of such an unlawful pirate corporation, they would be legitimate targets of opportunity to players in Hi-Sec.

Soooooooo... essentially nothing changes then?

Anyone under -5.0 security status is already fair game to anyone, anywhere, at any time (see: they are "perma-suspect")

Jared Bertrand wrote:
In addition to players hunting these pirates, house navies would agress these unlawful residents in defense of their empire space in an attempt to keep unlawful pilots out of law abiding space.

This change to the behavior of navies would make them proactive defenders of lawful citizens, while concord would remain the punishers of unlawful actions in hi-sec.

Again... this changes nothing. NPC Police already chase after and aggress anyone with low faction and/or security status.

However ships smaller than cruisers can warp away fast enough and avoid the NPC police... but not always players. If a player can pin an "outlaw" down for long enough then the police can (and will) effectively "finish the job."

Jared Bertrand wrote:
How does a person become a pirate you ask? Simple,
- for any unlawful activity a player participates in, the player's standing with their NPC corp decreases.
- Commit enough illegal acts and your NPC corp will kick you out and you land in a pirate corporation.
- Ideally a player could be considered a pirate in one empire, but not in others. This would allow for diverse player interactions, and also promote boarder trade hubs between the major factions.


- Already somewhat the case. People who attack others in NPCs corps will suffer some kind of standings penalty against that NPC corp... which slightly alters the standings to the Faction that NPC corp is a part of.

- This will change nothing (see above).

- This already applies with Faction Standings... but Security Status is a "universal standing" that affects all empires equally.


As for the clone tags... it costs well over a hundred (to two hundred) million ISK to bring one's security status up from -10 to 0.0. That isn't exactly chump change for most.
But, if someone is going to go right back to ganking afterward then there is little point in "wasting" the money.

So the clone tags are used primarily by people who have "made mistakes" or have retired from the low-sec combat life (where losing security status is pretty much a given).

How did you Veterans start?
Arden Elenduil
Unlimited Bear Works
#8 - 2014-12-04 20:40:45 UTC
With ganks, what you can do, for instance, is sit in a known gank spot with a jammer, and jam the gankers when they either land, or go criminal, depending on their sec status. You'll stop several ganks that way and won't even lose your ship.

Like the person above me said. Learn the bloody game mechanics and start applying them before complaining
Mag's
Azn Empire
#9 - 2014-12-04 21:33:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Jared Bertrand wrote:
Mag's wrote:
TBH it just looks like more 'Please give me more NPC mechanics' rather than, 'Let's see what we can do ourselves'.

If you really think the consequences are not high enough, then make them pay more yourself. Instead of moaning about it with your friends, do something about it.

Of course not all pirates use Catalysts and hang out in High sec, but hey it's a brush so let's tar folks with it.
I'd like to see just how many actually sit in NPC corps tbh. I can't recall seeing any, but you may know.





Cool, the old "Do more yourself" line. I happen to like my standings and security status as I try to play a law abiding citizen. WIth ganks all you can do is watch it coming or run if you're lucky enough to get past all the bumping that is used in place of warp disruption. So, Mr. Ganker, please try again on the veiled "your incompetant" insult.

I am asking for a method to proactively protect myself like I can do in null sec. The reason I'm am moving back there for the time being. So I can shoot at people who are clearly agressive and intending me harm.

Answer me these then, as your story just doesn't ring true.

1. What's stopping you proactively protecting yourself now?
2. Why are you worried about your sec status?
3. Are you actually talking about gankers or those that bump for gankers?
4. What facts and figures do you have, that shows gankers favour NPC corps.
5. What's wrong with content creation?

Kind regards
Mr Ganker.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Lipot
The StarJammers
#10 - 2014-12-04 21:34:08 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:

Soooooooo... essentially nothing changes then?

Anyone under -5.0 security status is already fair game to anyone, anywhere, at any time (see: they are "perma-suspect")

This mechanic has always been weak and easily exploited. I have done so on occasion myself.


ShahFluffers wrote:

Again... this changes nothing. NPC Police already chase after and aggress anyone with low faction and/or security status.

However ships smaller than cruisers can warp away fast enough and avoid the NPC police... but not always players. If a player can pin an "outlaw" down for long enough then the police can (and will) effectively "finish the job."


However, if you pin that person down you generate a suspect tag yourself and can be aggressed.


ShahFluffers wrote:

- Already somewhat the case. People who attack others in NPCs corps will suffer some kind of standings penalty against that NPC corp... which slightly alters the standings to the Faction that NPC corp is a part of.

- This will change nothing (see above).

- This already applies with Faction Standings... but Security Status is a "universal standing" that affects all empires equally.


As for the clone tags... it costs well over a hundred (to two hundred) million ISK to bring one's security status up from -10 to 0.0. That isn't exactly chump change for most.
But, if someone is going to go right back to ganking afterward then there is little point in "wasting" the money.

So the clone tags are used primarily by people who have "made mistakes" or have retired from the low-sec combat life (where losing security status is pretty much a given).



While attacking someone in another NPC corp will change your standings with that corp, it does nothing for the corp you are in. With player corps, your individual actions reflect on the corp as well. Having a mechanic that runs along side that for NPC corps to move players to Pirate corps. And your argument for the costs of tags. Before there was tags, you would "rat" to get your standings back. And getting 200 million isk these days is not hard. Between the various instant locate combat sites, incursions, or just the drops from your kills, that should be easy to do. All this suggestion would do is open up more avenues for people to explore while creating a new consequence for "breaking" the law.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#11 - 2014-12-04 21:36:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Lipot wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:

Again... this changes nothing. NPC Police already chase after and aggress anyone with low faction and/or security status.

However ships smaller than cruisers can warp away fast enough and avoid the NPC police... but not always players. If a player can pin an "outlaw" down for long enough then the police can (and will) effectively "finish the job."


However, if you pin that person down you generate a suspect tag yourself and can be aggressed.
Not if he's -5 and below. Sure he can shoot back, but that's it. Then it's simply an LE.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Jared Bertrand
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2014-12-04 21:41:03 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Jared Bertrand wrote:
[quote=Mag's]TBH it just looks like more 'Please give me more NPC mechanics' rather than, 'Let's see what we can do ourselves'.







1. What's stopping you proactively protecting yourself now?
2. Why are you worried about your sec status?
3. Are you actually talking about gankers or those that bump for gankers?
4. What facts and figures do you have, that shows gankers favour NPC corps.
5. What's wrong with content creation?

Kind regards
Mr Ganker.


Point 1, Concord, do I really need to expalain how concord kills people that shoot targets that aren't flashing yellow?
Point2, Because I do RP a little. and I believe in the ideals espoused by philosophers such as Hobbes and Locke.
Point3, Bumping is annoying, bumping used to pin down a target for a gank squad to show up is curcumventing agression mechanics regarding warp disruption.
Point4, I don't have any hard date, merely annecdotal eveidence and observation that a large number of the gankers I have seen operate out of NPC corps.
Point5, Content creation? Allowing people to defend them selves from Gankers and pirates is not content creation? What planet are you from?
Mag's
Azn Empire
#13 - 2014-12-04 21:47:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Jared Bertrand wrote:
Mag's wrote:
1. What's stopping you proactively protecting yourself now?
2. Why are you worried about your sec status?
3. Are you actually talking about gankers or those that bump for gankers?
4. What facts and figures do you have, that shows gankers favour NPC corps.
5. What's wrong with content creation?

Kind regards
Mr Ganker.


Point 1, Concord, do I really need to expalain how concord kills people that shoot targets that aren't flashing yellow?
Point2, Because I do RP a little. and I believe in the ideals espoused by philosophers such as Hobbes and Locke.
Point3, Bumping is annoying, bumping used to pin down a target for a gank squad to show up is curcumventing agression mechanics regarding warp disruption.
Point4, I don't have any hard date, merely annecdotal eveidence and observation that a large number of the gankers I have seen operate out of NPC corps.
Point5, Content creation? Allowing people to defend them selves from Gankers and pirates is not content creation? What planet are you from?

1. So these pirates, are not pirates? What? (Heads up for you, it's cheaper to stay -10 and not use tags Blink)
What you need to explain is how these so called pirates can afford to keep using tags and how this cannot be classed as a consequence.
2. So you are worried about sec status because you're not wanting to shoot pirates?
Your sec status shouldn't be an issue if you stick to shooting pirates with -5 and below.
3. No bumping is used to move a ship off the gate, it does not circumvent anything and does not prevent warp.
Also bumpers tend not to have low sec status, it can be a hindrance. But then they are not being aggressive, so....
4. So you don't know and are either guessing or making it up. Glad we cleared that up.
No facts, no claim tbh.
5. Yes content creation, something you can do without this idea. Try it.
CCP want you to take matters into your own hands, they love that.
CCP Falcon wrote:
Why should CCP provide protection for your haulage in high sec?

CONCORD offer a level of deterrent just the same as any law enforcement agency, but as with any police for they're reactive and punitive rather than proactive.

If you want your haulage to be safer, bring the guns. If you don't have any guns, sacrifice some of your profit margin and hire someone who has them to escort you.

Welcome to New Eden, you just learned a very valuable lesson in being prepared and covering your back.

Smile


Kind regards
Mr Ganker.

Edit: More stuffz

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#14 - 2014-12-04 22:16:08 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Lipot wrote:
This mechanic has always been weak and easily exploited. I have done so on occasion myself.

It is only as "weak and easily exploited" as the players who choose not to use it to their advantage.

It is not the responsibility of the NPCs to defend you. Only you can truly defend yourself.

Lipot wrote:
However, if you pin that person down you generate a suspect tag yourself and can be aggressed.

Nope. You simply gain a "Limited Engagement Timer" against the person you pin... meaning only he/she can attack you. Your job in such a scenario is to just live long enough for the NPCs to come and apply their damage.

Lipot wrote:
While attacking someone in another NPC corp will change your standings with that corp, it does nothing for the corp you are in. With player corps, your individual actions reflect on the corp as well. Having a mechanic that runs along side that for NPC corps to move players to Pirate corps.

But it still doesn't functionally change anything.

So you lose standings... big deal. I have -5.4 standing with the Amarr and Caldari... it doesn't stop me (or my corpmates) from popping through their systems every so often (with a -9.7 security status on top of that).

Lipot wrote:
And your argument for the costs of tags. Before there was tags, you would "rat" to get your standings back. And getting 200 million isk these days is not hard.

The reason CCP added the clone-tag system is because they saw that people were simply quitting the game when they found out that they would have to rat for days and had no support network in low/null-sec to help them.

And before you say that all one has to do is kill one "high value" NPC per system and blitz a bunch of systems to raise Sec-Status quickly... CCP removed that mechanic. Your security status only goes up once every 10 minutes based on the most valuable NPC you kill.


You are right in that none of this affects more "professional" ganking outfits that have money to burn... but for a casual or newbie player, 100 to 200 mil is a lot of money.

Lipot wrote:
I do RP a little. and I believe in the ideals espoused by philosophers such as Hobbes and Locke.

Pro-tip... your own personal morality and ethics are not sacred to anyone else but yourself. Someone can always disagree with you using the same arguments you make based on their own personal morality or ethics (or lack of thereof)... because they believe!

Plus... soulless mechanics and rule-sets don't really care about how you feel, what people intend, or why. Only whether "___" happened or not.


Content creation? Allowing people to defend them selves from Gankers and pirates is not content creation? What planet are you from?

You can already directly defend yourself against a -5.0 person... you just have to be faster and better equipped.

If the "other guy" spends more time, effort, and manpower into plotting your downfall... then it should take an equal amount of time, effort, and manpower to defend against it.

And not every form of defense requires a direct confrontation. Sometimes the best way to defend yourself is to not be in a "bad situation" in the first place.
This is why the webbing-friend trick are so popular with freighters. It gets you into warp and away from danger in less than 5 seconds.

How did you Veterans start?
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#15 - 2014-12-04 22:23:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
so basically these pirate corps would have a half assed perma-war dec against them? If so...what are they getting from this?

And what happens for the bad guys who form corps? Lets be honest most of these people aren't using npc corps for shelter from war decs. Its not like the average mining corp or mission running crew will dec them for revenge. Some bears would be too busy hiding from war decs placed on them even lol.


Want punishment sounds like you got it really. You seem to be doing your 0.0 ratting tour of fun to fix your sec status. I had a few pirate (not gankers, I differentiate between the 2, pirates leave empire to be more accessible to others including other non blue pirate crews) friends actually like the switch to 0.0. It became more than a place to sec status fix .

Most though....it was a grind in many meanings of he word. being nice I hope you find a crew that is the former. Note it won't fix your description of "mindless" ganking. Drop bubble on gate, recon on bubble for support, dps the crap out the target. It can be SSDD really. You do get ti spice it up though I will admit. Volunteer to be the inty who dredges he bubble looking for peeps doing mwd/cloak trick. Camp depending this could be the most active role in the camp really.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#16 - 2014-12-05 00:37:20 UTC
If you actually want meaningful consequences, then enforce them yourself.

Oh wait, except that you really can't, because the facpo can do it better and faster than any player ever could. Turns out that all those NPC centric mechanics just stiffle actual player interaction. Oh, and it seems that facpo is the major cause of neg sec status pilots only flying disposable ships too? Well, what do you know? Roll

Remove facpo, open up the game for real player interaction.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Vapor Ventrillian
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2014-12-05 00:44:11 UTC
This could be awesome and a way fro me to organise my legion better

Scope Supports more Npc Power in any form

Plus 1 from me

The Evil Overlord of Scope, self elected as all good overlords should be
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#18 - 2014-12-05 05:17:21 UTC
Jared Bertrand wrote:
So here I am, preparing to go back to null to avoid mindless ganking...


inb4 afk cloaking thread...

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Lipot
The StarJammers
#19 - 2014-12-05 05:35:54 UTC
I don't know what is funnier. The joke about bubbles and gate camps, the removal of NPC police faction so "gankers" can use expensive fits, the -5 sec status engagement line, or the fact that I was credited for saying something that the original poster said. When some of the deadliest systems in game are not systems that can be bubble but .5 systems connecting one high sec empire to another, bubbles are out of the question. Removing the NPC police would not have a nice starting set up to encourage new players and stimulate the in game economy. All it would do is make everyday a Burn Jita festival. And let's all be honest. It is great to kill a multibillion isk ship with a small, cheap fleet of tech 1 destroyers. The only exception to that rule is when capital ships come out. As for content creation..... Spaceship Barbie running that damn trit scam in Amarr creates more content then a bunch of guys running around in pods to get to a neutral orca to reship while a couple of bump Machariels keep slamming into a freighter or orca to get them off of gate and disrupt their warp. As far as I can see is that most of the shooting down of this idea that the OP had is based around a group of guys that rather attack "care bears" then go find a real fight in 0.0. But then I don't expect much from guys that are trying to say destruction is creation.

Now I wonder if anyone is reading this thread enough to find the misquote. I don't think that the guy that did it will find it.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#20 - 2014-12-05 05:40:34 UTC
this idea is useless. Most of the gankers are already -10 and deal with facpo just fine. They undock and warp to their neutral bumping alt, etc...

What is needed is a much longer GCC timer to make ganking painful for the gankers...and make them more selective about who they gank.
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