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Alliance Loans
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Artemis Scat
Thebes Guild
#1 - 2014-12-02 18:17:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Artemis Scat
Hey guys, I have a question that may seem fairly pointless, but I would like to ask it anyways.

Are there any known active alliances that have methods of loaning money to players within the alliance that have project ideas? Probably with some sort of semi-security system?

For instance, player A is new to the game, with barely any money and wishes to get into trading, so he asks his alliance for an uncollateralized loan to start with. The alliance is willing to loan at most 10% of the money in the wallet to any single player within the alliance at an interest rate of 5% on a monthly timeline for personal projects. But the alliance has a loan cap of 50% of their total wallet.

This allows the alliance to utilize all of the money that it has at any one point in time, as well as promote the growth of individual players.

Is this idea feasible, used, tested, or even thought of?
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#2 - 2014-12-02 18:30:48 UTC
A lot of corps and alliances loan (or just straight up give) isk and assets to their membership.

You see all manner of variations on the theme.

But in my experience "new player friendly" loan services have to work on the basis of charity, because there is no worthwhile method of mitigating your risks. Fortunately, to a new player 100m is huge, so you can leg up every newbie recruit without it costing you anything significant.
Artemis Scat
Thebes Guild
#3 - 2014-12-02 18:35:35 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:
A lot of corps and alliances loan (or just straight up give) isk and assets to their membership.

You see all manner of variations on the theme.

But in my experience "new player friendly" loan services have to work on the basis of charity, because there is no worthwhile method of mitigating your risks. Fortunately, to a new player 100m is huge, so you can leg up every newbie recruit without it costing you anything significant.


Is there anywhere that I may go in order to look at the way that some of these are set up? I am looking in order to set up some sort of system like this for players in a new-player-friendly alliance. I want to gather thoughts on methods of doing this before I propose it to the alliance accountant.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#4 - 2014-12-02 18:48:04 UTC
The idea of charging new players monthly interest for your help disqualifies you as new player friendly in my opinion.
Artemis Scat
Thebes Guild
#5 - 2014-12-02 18:54:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Artemis Scat
Bad Bobby wrote:
The idea of charging new players monthly interest for your help disqualifies you as new player friendly in my opinion.


Not really. 5-10% interest is easy to acquire doing just about anything in the game. If anything, giving money to new players for free is doing them a disservice. Loaning money to new players at a small interest rate is an incentive for them to explore the mechanics of making money with the game. As well as providing another source of income for the alliance.

Have you heard the saying: "Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, you feed him for a lifetime." If anything, it is even more applicable in EVE. If you want someone to coddle you, then this probably isn't the game for you.

But you are entitled to your opinion. We tend to take a more aggressive stance on teaching new players. More of a "we will be here to guide you and answer any questions you have, but you will do a majority of the learning for yourself."
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#6 - 2014-12-02 18:59:14 UTC
Artemis Scat wrote:
Have you heard the saying: "Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, you feed him for a lifetime."

But your proposal is to give a man a fish and then charge him every month until he gives you the fish back.
Artemis Scat
Thebes Guild
#7 - 2014-12-02 19:02:35 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:
Artemis Scat wrote:
Have you heard the saying: "Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, you feed him for a lifetime."

But your proposal is to give a man a fish and then charge him every month until he gives you the fish back.


More like give a man a fishing pole, and charge him for the bait he uses.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#8 - 2014-12-03 00:41:28 UTC
There's help to just get started out (e.g. "Hey alliance newbro. Here's a Myrmidron fitting, go rat, PS, your tax rate is 8%). IMO it's best to do this via donations.

For bigger projects, collateralised loans individually organised are best, backed up by military help if needed. If a player wants to start an initiative of carrier production, I say loan them the 20b they need against real collateral (out of alliance funds), and provide alliance military support to help their POS if attacked. Charge them market rates as otherwise you will just attract opportunists.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Artemis Scat
Thebes Guild
#9 - 2014-12-03 00:55:43 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
There's help to just get started out (e.g. "Hey alliance newbro. Here's a Myrmidron fitting, go rat, PS, your tax rate is 8%). IMO it's best to do this via donations.

This is more along the lines of what I had in mind for an alliance of our size/ability.

Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
For bigger projects, collateralised loans individually organised are best, backed up by military help if needed. If a player wants to start an initiative of carrier production, I say loan them the 20b they need against real collateral (out of alliance funds), and provide alliance military support to help their POS if attacked. Charge them market rates as otherwise you will just attract opportunists.

Whereas larger solo projects like this should probably be planned out with the help of multiple people. I do like the market rate idea, though. Thanks, mate :3
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#10 - 2014-12-03 01:12:04 UTC
Basically for large sums you want to decide 'Is this an alliance project, with the risk and reward primarily going for the alliance, or a personal project, with the risk and reward primarily helping the individual?'

Don't get into a situation where the alliance carries the risk and an individual gets the reward, but also don't get into a situation where an individual carries the risk and the alliance gets the reward. Structure your loan accordingly, and if it is a sum worthy of a seriously well thought out theft then keep watching that structure to see if it changes. (Mr. Bobby above knows what to look for here).

For small sums, you want to have a charity approach but ask "How do I make this not worth an opportunist's time". So if you will give someone a 50m battlecruiser to get started, you want their time investment (up to the point they get the BC) to be at least long enough that a veteran player could have acquired 50m via other means.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Artemis Scat
Thebes Guild
#11 - 2014-12-03 01:17:20 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:

For small sums, you want to have a charity approach but ask "How do I make this not worth an opportunist's time". So if you will give someone a 50m battlecruiser to get started, you want their time investment (up to the point they get the BC) to be at least long enough that a veteran player could have acquired 50m via other means.


Define "veteran" for a newbie, please? I like to think I am picking up the game fairly quickly. But I still don't know about differences in experience levels.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#12 - 2014-12-03 01:43:39 UTC
Artemis Scat wrote:
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:

For small sums, you want to have a charity approach but ask "How do I make this not worth an opportunist's time". So if you will give someone a 50m battlecruiser to get started, you want their time investment (up to the point they get the BC) to be at least long enough that a veteran player could have acquired 50m via other means.


Define "veteran" for a newbie, please? I like to think I am picking up the game fairly quickly. But I still don't know about differences in experience levels.


In this context, I mean someone who you wouldn't want your 'help out the newbros' fund supporting.

Most people with a few months experience can make 50 million ISK per hour via ISK and resource faucets (ratting, L4 missions, incursions, etc) and maybe 100m via taking it from other players (trading, scamming, etc). So to make your free battlecruiser unappealing to those people, you want to make them invest an hour or so to get it.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Artemis Scat
Thebes Guild
#13 - 2014-12-03 02:43:03 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:

In this context, I mean someone who you wouldn't want your 'help out the newbros' fund supporting.

Most people with a few months experience can make 50 million ISK per hour via ISK and resource faucets (ratting, L4 missions, incursions, etc) and maybe 100m via taking it from other players (trading, scamming, etc). So to make your free battlecruiser unappealing to those people, you want to make them invest an hour or so to get it.


As for caps per player withdrawal, would you limit a loan amount to a specific number, or make it the discretion of the loaner? Is this viable as an option for loaning to newer players, or would you suggest setting up a subsection in our forum to match potential loaners and people attempting to take a loan for a project, and just do personal transactions instead?

I can definitely see the merits of both or either method(s).