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CSM meets CCP Senior Producer Zulu about your concerns

First post First post
Author
Richard Hammond II
Doomheim
#341 - 2011-09-12 21:12:33 UTC
The Mittani wrote:


Even if it's commonplace, it annoys me. A bit of 'we ****** up, we know it' realtalk with the players would go a long way towards restoring trust.


Except it doesnt:

see here

Well the posts other than the ones that read "oh its ok, you admitted it" but those are usually also the guys that do the same thing WHENEVER CCP screws up "Its OK get back to work" *cheery smile*

Goons; infiltration at its best - first bob... now ccp itself. They dont realize you guys dot take this as "just a game". Bring it down guys, we're rooting for you.

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#342 - 2011-09-12 21:12:45 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
The Mittani wrote:
Getting CCP to admit mistakes in plain english is very hard. The more defensive they are, the more likely their interlocutors at the higher levels are to use weasel words and lengthy caveats. That's pretty standard for most corporations though. It's frustrating as hell but I suppose it's par for the course?

Even if it's commonplace, it annoys me. A bit of 'we ****** up, we know it' realtalk with the players would go a long way towards restoring trust.


At this point I care less about them admitting they've chronically under-resourced and neglected core Eve Online for the last several years than in them commiting immediately to a return to proper expansions with genuinely-impressive content and feature sets that use a significant portion of their manpower to produce.

If Hillmar wants to blame volcanic ash for the crap state of Eve so be it.

Just get them to start producing Exodus/Apocrypha scale development again and I think everyone will be very happy.

They were able to do this once when they were much smaller.
There is no reason they can't do it again.
(especially not when the potential survival of their sole current income-source is at risk)



When did you get all ~succint~ ?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#343 - 2011-09-12 21:19:02 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:
The Mittani wrote:
Getting CCP to admit mistakes in plain english is very hard. The more defensive they are, the more likely their interlocutors at the higher levels are to use weasel words and lengthy caveats. That's pretty standard for most corporations though. It's frustrating as hell but I suppose it's par for the course?

Even if it's commonplace, it annoys me. A bit of 'we ****** up, we know it' realtalk with the players would go a long way towards restoring trust.


At this point I care less about them admitting they've chronically under-resourced and neglected core Eve Online for the last several years than in them commiting immediately to a return to proper expansions with genuinely-impressive content and feature sets that use a significant portion of their manpower to produce.

If Hillmar wants to blame volcanic ash for the crap state of Eve so be it.

Just get them to start producing Exodus/Apocrypha scale development again and I think everyone will be very happy.

They were able to do this once when they were much smaller.
There is no reason they can't do it again.
(especially not when the potential survival of their sole current income-source is at risk)



When did you get all ~succint~ ?


We're all on the same side of the barricades for this revolution baby.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom

the plague
Anthraxus Defense Laboratories
#344 - 2011-09-12 21:25:24 UTC
Azelor Delaria wrote:
Meissa Anunthiel wrote:
I'm informing you of a process in place, not of CCP saying "we'll look at it somewhere down the line". One process that should generate progress or at least an answer because they're looking at it now...

Before you decry the results of that process to be meaningless, why don't you wait for the result to come out?


You informed us of nothing. All you said was, "We met with CCP Zulu, who is the senior developer for EVE Online and has absolutely no control over what goes on because he's not a 'suit' like Hilmar". You provided no details about what was said, citing the NDA. You provided no details as to what was mentioned, citing the NDA. You provided no specific topics, citing the NDA.

The reason we are "decrying" the results is because there have been no results. Once again, we have absolutely nothing going on that supports anything you say. A supercapital ship nerf? Congratulations. But it was something that was coming, not something you single-handedly as the current CSM suggested happen. You are piggybacking off of the collective works of previous CSMs even if you were on it or not.

As someone else said, CCP says what they want you to hear, then does what they want to do. That's par for the proverbial course. They created a game where lying, cheating, swindling, and general asshattery commonly frowned upon in real life is the everyday norm. Why should we believe that the developers of such a game aren't lying to us?


+1

More NDA rubbish. Nothing but a smokescreen.
Gogela
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#345 - 2011-09-12 21:26:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Gogela
Jade Constantine wrote:
We're all on the same side of the barricades for this revolution baby.


Ever since I started playing this game there's been a lot of back and forth between players... but with the dropping sub numbers and worse the dropping player numbers on the servers and nothing really worthwhile in near-term sight... I think you are right on about that. It's really a first for the community I think.

...wonder if it will matter.

I like the game. ...but I'm not committed to the game.

CCP should be. They get paid. I, conversely, do not.

Richard Hammond II wrote:
The Mittani wrote:


Even if it's commonplace, it annoys me. A bit of 'we ****** up, we know it' realtalk with the players would go a long way towards restoring trust.


Except it doesnt:

see here

Well the posts other than the ones that read "oh its ok, you admitted it" but those are usually also the guys that do the same thing WHENEVER CCP screws up "Its OK get back to work" *cheery smile*


All I read there was "We didn't get to it. We quit. Sorries."

Signatures should be used responsibly...

Zinyai
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#346 - 2011-09-12 22:13:39 UTC
Oust The Mittani from CSM. We don't need his arrogance!
Gogela
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#347 - 2011-09-12 22:29:01 UTC
Zinyai wrote:
Oust The Mittani from CSM. We don't need his arrogance!

I was thinking the same thing yesterday.... he certainly is arrogant and obnoxious... but this morning I was coding a payment gateway for a website, and I stepped out, had a cigarette, and changed my mind. Here's why:

Mit is obnoxious.

...but CCP has ignored the core gameplay for 2 years-ish now. Dominion was never improved upon. PI is like a Zynga facebook game but more boring (no I don't play them). Incarna was released w/ one captains quarters, and none of the social interaction they promised (yah yah it's coming at the end of the year or soon or whateverthehell). I mean... what happened to grand developments like Apocrypha? I mean when I see people in the forums asking for FiS stuff no one even THINKS one the scale of Revelations anymore because it's a forgone conclusion that CCP isn't capable of that kind of development anymore. I'm not happy about it... and I can't do anything about it. So in a way, Mit is kind of a community weapon to deploy to CCP. Now THEY have to deal with his arrogance. It actually kind of makes sense to me... if you want to present a stoic and solitary middle finger to CCP, who better to send than lord of the Goons? With that in mind, I've actually done a complete 180 on the matter.

F*** it.

Mit for CSM7.

*waves goon flag

Signatures should be used responsibly...

Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#348 - 2011-09-12 22:52:55 UTC
Orakkus wrote:
I guess my question is based on what "Project A" is.

The rest of the meeting minutes seem to not address anything much in Incarna. So can the CSM confirm the "Project A" is an Incarna based update?

We can neither confirm nor deny the confirmation or denial of whether or not Project "A" is or is not related to anything that may or may not be associated with Incarna.

I hope this clarifies matters sufficiently. Twisted

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery

Officer Spawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#349 - 2011-09-13 08:13:56 UTC
Cearain wrote:



I don't think CCP has been dishonest in the past. If they say they are assigning these devs to these activities I will believe it.

I believed Zulu's blog in July 2010. I believed them when they said they wouldn't be able to work on much in eve for 18 months. It disgusts me that they are neglecting eve, but I can't say they were dishonest about it. In fact they have been brutally honest.

In any event, the csm would certainly be able to tell when they meet with ccp.


Looking back at Zulu's blog from :18 months: ago I saw this:

Quote:
Of those, seven are on loan from other projects - to which they will return once Incarna is launched


Incarna was launched so all these teams are back to the other projects ?
Basileus Volkan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#350 - 2011-09-13 08:23:17 UTC
Arrogance is usually only seen as such from below.

Ones personal feelings towards a political figure do not determine their competence.
In fact, as far as I am aware, the current CSM has done a lot more than the previous ones.
Metlec
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#351 - 2011-09-13 08:24:55 UTC
Meissa Anunthiel wrote:
Hello Everyone,

I cannot tell you anything

Stay tuned...



Thanks for that..
Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
#352 - 2011-09-13 08:42:00 UTC
Basileus Volkan wrote:
Arrogance is usually only seen as such from below.

Ones personal feelings towards a political figure do not determine their competence.
In fact, as far as I am aware, the current CSM has done a lot more than the previous ones.


That's a bit of a side issue, but one that bears repeating.

Having been on all those pasts CSMs (except the first), I am in a very good position to tell you that while the quality of elected members has overall increased, the major progress in terms of ability to accomplish things is because the CSM-CCP process has strongly evolved.

Practical examples:
During CSM 2, communication between CSM and CCP was limited to exactly 1 summit in Iceland and 1 brainstorming session with CCP Abathur and CCP Greyscale. No "pre-meeting", no post-meeting, nothing. Something CSM 2 fought to change.
During CSM 3, communication between CSM and CCP was limited to 1 iceland summit and 2 online meetings.
During CSM 4, we got the stakeholder status that allowed us to fight for the inclusion of "our" items in the release plan (the list of stuff includded in an expansion), before that it was up to devs to pick stuff from our list if they chose to.
During CSM 5, communication was extended to a lot of forum dialog with the devs (the private CSM forum was only used by CSM members before that). We got devs to start poking us about requests that they have while they were developping stuff.
So far, during CSM 6, we got a few of the key devs (or just cool devs) to hang out with us in a skype channel where a lot of discussions can take place, in addition to an increased dev presence on the forums.

The CSM is only as good as its capacity to engage the devs in dialog and give them feedback. Each CSM has added more communication abilities on top of what its predecessor already had, it should therefore come as no surprise that each CSM is able to accomplish more.

Also, while initially many devs were very cautious about the CSM ("who the hell are these players hanging about in the office"), over the terms they've come to accept us as a good feedback tool. We're only as good as CCP's willingness to use us (I think I'll forever have CSM 3 Zastrow's "but please use us as cheap hookers" request in my mind :p)

So, yes, CSM 6 looks set to do a better job than CSM 5, but not as a question of effort on the part of previous CSMs.

Member of CSM 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7

Wolfcan
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#353 - 2011-09-13 09:21:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Wolfcan
Dalketh wrote:
Yup yet another meeting with the CSM then no information due to NDA and everyone told to wait - AGAIN. CCP is getting smarter tho... this time they arranged the meeting more quickly to nip it in the bud and get the CSM to shut up.


+1 this absolutely!
Azelor Delaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#354 - 2011-09-13 09:51:03 UTC
Meissa Anunthiel wrote:
The CSM is only as good as its capacity to engage the devs in dialog and give them feedback. Each CSM has added more communication abilities on top of what its predecessor already had, it should therefore come as no surprise that each CSM is able to accomplish more.


I disagree. By the admission of many on the current CSM as well as CCP employees, the abilities of the CSM are directly related to how Hilmer et al. respond. You can get every developer in CCP to agree with you, but if they don't have the resources that Hilmar controls and allocates, then it is all for naught.

If you want anything done, you need to get Hilmar's approval. In the end, he is the only person who matters. Developers, as I have said, can swear up and down that they agree, and they will get it done, but if Hilmar refuses to give them the components needed to effectively do their job, then it's your own fault for not engaging your brain and thinking beyond the small box that every member of the current CSM is standing in.
Apollo-Moor
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#355 - 2011-09-13 09:57:07 UTC
Meissa Anunthiel wrote:
Hello Everyone,

Amidst the recent forum activity about reports of decreased subscriber count, discontent about lack of resources allocated to "Flying In Space" (or, as we know it, Eve Online) and, despite Gridlock and Team BFF's efforts, general stagnation when it comes to fixes and improvements, the CSM just met with CCP's Senor Producer for Eve Online: CCP Zulu.

During that meeting, we discussed the players' concerns with the man who has the ability to resolve them. We cannot share the details of the meeting itself because it is heavily NDA'd, but ways to resolve your concerns have been discussed and a follow-up meeting is planned.

Stay tuned...

Meissa Anunthiel, Vice-Chairman of CSM 6


Thus is funny.. You told them about the stuff they've known about for months and then you can't actually tell us what you told them.. So how do we know you even brought up the right stuff.. or if they even responded to the right stuff in the "right stuff"..

I'm starting to understand the questions of these CSM's and how CCP is actually using this info other than finding an easier $
Barricade Dark
#356 - 2011-09-13 10:00:11 UTC
Wolfcan wrote:
Dalketh wrote:
Yup yet another meeting with the CSM then no information due to NDA and everyone told to wait - AGAIN. CCP is getting smarter tho... this time they arranged the meeting more quickly to nip it in the bud and get the CSM to shut up.


+1 this absolutely!


Yup thats pretty much my take on it as well. The whole thing boils down to a commitment "To look at it".

I'm a software developer so I do understand this to some extent I do it at work all the time. You simply can't drop what you are doing everytime someone has a complaint or an idea about software we are writing. Their are project plans and coders assigned to those projects their is just not a whole lot of room to adjust it and you sure as hell don't want to start re-designing **** while your still coding the original design. So you throw the execs a bone, a promise to add whatever feature they are requesting in "a future version" with no fixed time table nore an adjustment to the development cycle, just some notes in a file that no one will ever look at. Of course we make exceptions if we foresee a real problem somewhere, but generally we stick to the program because if we didn't nothing would ever be completed.

Thats the thing about development. There is no such thing as a small change, in particular in complex software.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#357 - 2011-09-13 10:07:34 UTC
Azelor Delaria wrote:
Meissa Anunthiel wrote:
The CSM is only as good as its capacity to engage the devs in dialog and give them feedback. Each CSM has added more communication abilities on top of what its predecessor already had, it should therefore come as no surprise that each CSM is able to accomplish more.


I disagree. By the admission of many on the current CSM as well as CCP employees, the abilities of the CSM are directly related to how Hilmer et al. respond. You can get every developer in CCP to agree with you, but if they don't have the resources that Hilmar controls and allocates, then it is all for naught.

If you want anything done, you need to get Hilmar's approval. In the end, he is the only person who matters. Developers, as I have said, can swear up and down that they agree, and they will get it done, but if Hilmar refuses to give them the components needed to effectively do their job, then it's your own fault for not engaging your brain and thinking beyond the small box that every member of the current CSM is standing in.


You seem to be under the impression that the CSM don't understand a point which they themselves have been making for weeks.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

raker
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#358 - 2011-09-13 10:17:45 UTC
Zinyai wrote:
Oust The Mittani from CSM. We don't need his arrogance!



I am no fan of Mittani, and yes he is arrogant

However on this issue, I feel the fact that all the CSM spoke as one may of got results, I understand that they cannot inform us of what has been said due to NDA's, but if the upper guys in CCP now know that we want some resources put into FIS and if we get to see some results , then I feel that Mittani has done a good job

This is what the CSM should be there for, to inform CCP of what the playerbase want

But to use CCP's own term, lets see "what they do and not what they say"



Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#359 - 2011-09-13 10:49:40 UTC
Azelor Delaria wrote:
Meissa Anunthiel wrote:
The CSM is only as good as its capacity to engage the devs in dialog and give them feedback. Each CSM has added more communication abilities on top of what its predecessor already had, it should therefore come as no surprise that each CSM is able to accomplish more.


I disagree. By the admission of many on the current CSM as well as CCP employees, the abilities of the CSM are directly related to how Hilmer et al. respond. You can get every developer in CCP to agree with you, but if they don't have the resources that Hilmar controls and allocates, then it is all for naught.

If you want anything done, you need to get Hilmar's approval. In the end, he is the only person who matters. Developers, as I have said, can swear up and down that they agree, and they will get it done, but if Hilmar refuses to give them the components needed to effectively do their job, then it's your own fault for not engaging your brain and thinking beyond the small box that every member of the current CSM is standing in.


This is somewhat true. There is still a lot of value in getting devs at CCP to agree with us, this is why you get stuff like supercap balance, the dramiel/logi fixes, etc. to happen. In this case, the issue is bigger than that, but a large part of our work is not Hilmar related stuff.

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog

Officer Spawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#360 - 2011-09-13 10:55:54 UTC
Two step wrote:
the dramiel/logi fixes


That's like three database updates. Is this seriously something we have to compliment Hilmar on as an example of his commitment to allocating resources to FiS ?