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Expanding Deadspace Modules

Author
Aliventi
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry.
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#1 - 2014-11-30 22:51:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Aliventi
With the recent expedition changes we are seeing far more deadspace modules hitting the market than ever before. This is leading to a non-trivial price drop in most of the modules. I personally like low prices because that means deadspace modules are cheaper for me to use. However, I don't really want expeditions to become worthless to do because there are too many modules depressing prices too much.

So instead of nerfing drop rate, nerfing spawn rate of the sites, or anything like that... I propose that we expand the number of modules that may potentially drop. This should lower the flood of a specific module hitting the market, while still making expeditions worth it because more types of modules will drop.

Aide from stabilizing prices.. Why more modules? this increases the fitting fun (and ALODs) that are bound to happen if the modules are created. The elite or solo PvP, Incursion bears and mission runner waiting to get ganked, nullsec ratting carriers, etc. will all have a use for these modules. Everyone gets more toys to play with, more isk goes to those willing to venture out and do escalations, and people foolish enough to fit these modules and die will be handing a nice payday to their killers.

Will these modules be OP?
Not really. Many of these modules already have Officer (Meta 11-14) versions in game. Most of the deadspace modules that help people tank are already in game. Most of these modules will help people kill things faster and better. Who doesn't like ships blowing up more? Also, since these module help kill things they are not banned for AT flagships like tanking modules are.

So what kind of modules are we talking about? Here is a list:

Weapons upgrades:
  • Ballistic Control Systems
  • Gyrostabilizers
  • Heat Sinks
  • Magnetic Field Stabilizers
  • Remote Tracking Computers
  • Tracking Computers
  • Tracking Enhancers

Engineering Equipment:
  • Micro Auxiliary Power Controls
  • Capacitor Batteries
  • Capacitor Boosters
  • Capacitor Flux Coils
  • Capacitor Power Relays
  • Capacitor Rechargers
  • Energy Destabilizers
  • Power Diagnostic Systems
  • Reactor Control Units
  • Remote Capacitor Transfers (Large)

Electronics and Sensor Upgrades:
  • CPU Upgrades
  • Cloaking Devices
  • Remote Sensor Boosters
  • Sensor Boosters
  • Signal Amplifiers
  • Tractor Beams

Harvesting Equipment:
  • Gas Cloud Harvesters
  • Ice harvesters
  • Mining Lasers
  • Mining Upgrades
  • Salvagers
  • Strip Miners

Hull and Armor:
  • Armor Plates
  • Damage Controls
  • Energized Armor Layering
  • Hull Repairers
  • Hull Upgrades (Expanded Cargoholds, Nanofiber Internal Structures, Reinforced Bulkheads)
  • Remote Armor Repairers (Large)
  • Remote Hull Repairs

Shield:
  • Remote Shield Boosters (Large)
  • Shield Extenders
  • Shield Flux Coils
  • Shield Power Relays
  • Shield Rechargers

Drone Upgrades:
  • Drone Damage Amplifiers
  • Drone Link Augmentors
  • Drone Navigation Computer
  • Omnidirectional Tracking Enhancer
  • Omnidirectional Tracking Link

Electronic Warfare:
  • Stasis Webifiers
  • Warp Disruption Field Generators
  • Warp Disruptors
  • Warp Scramblers

Other:
  • Smartbombs

Some notes:
  • I left all the classic EWAR modules (ECM, SD, TD, TP) off this list. EWAR is very powerful, and I am not sure if there would be a positive impact by allowing deadspace EWAR modules.
  • Deadspace meta level (11-14 are shared between deadspace and officer) Stasis Webs, Warp Disruptors and Warp Scramblers that are already in game are set up to give huge bonuses, but take massive amounts of power grid. This prevents them from being fit to anything smaller than a BS. Which is great for how powerful those modules are (20km base web range, 40km point range, and 15km scram range.) It would be nice to have versions of those as deadspace modules. but also have smaller versions that give smaller bonuses and can be fit to frigates and cruisers. Maybe these modules can max out at 15-16km web range, 30km point, and 12.5km scram range.
  • Perhaps the Harvesting Equipment could be a new type of deadspace site that only spawns in Outer Ring (actual mining) and Syndicate (Gas mining/drug production). Or if that is too much then have them drop in Serpentis sites. Before you ask... Yes. I want to see the ALOD for the fully A-type fit Hulk that was ganked in highsec.


Thoughts?
Meyr
Pirannha Corp
#2 - 2014-11-30 23:19:29 UTC
I can't say that I agree with all of your proposed modules, I like most of them.

+1!
Aran Hotchkiss
Tactically Challenged
Tactical Supremacy
#3 - 2014-11-30 23:31:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Aran Hotchkiss
I've seen another suggestion along the lines of this which I was against, however you've gone to the effort of laying out your suggestions and which modules you'd like to see deadspace incarnations of, as oppose to "hurr durr can we haz deadspace weapon upgrades"

I guess main points to tackle would be

Which factions would drop what?
How would they differ?

By this I mean currently we have five dead-space factions - Serpentis, Gurrista, Sansha, Angel, Blood Raider - it isn't too far of a stretch to figure out which races would drop shield modules etc, but what about things like harvesting equipment - would you have Gistii class gas harvesters, or just have a universal dead-space name for harvesting modules that all factions drop. EDIT: Oops. Hadn't read to the very bottom of your post. Whatever.

With respect to how they differ, the example I'm going to use is Gist and Pith shield mods - Pith (Gurista) are stronger, whilst Gist (Angel) use less cap - would you have Pith shield extenders provide more hit points but high fitting demand? maybe have Gist extenders provide a smaller sig radius penalty (Granted I'm fairly sure that's what faction shield extenders do currently)

I'm a bit tentative about adding dead-space/faction large remote repairers.... I've heard people say combat logistics ships need fixxing.... I don't think giving them deadspace toys would be helpful...

You should have enough control over your herd of cats to make them understand. If they constantly make misstakes, get better cats.

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#4 - 2014-11-30 23:42:13 UTC
+1 for the suggestions overall.
Deadspace rigsā€¦ Twisted

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#5 - 2014-11-30 23:43:27 UTC
Aliventi wrote:

Remote Tracking Computers
Remote Capacitor Transfers (Large)
Remote Sensor Boosters
Salvagers
Armor Plates
Remote Armor Repairers (Large)
Remote Hull Repairs
Remote Shield Boosters (Large)
Shield Extenders
Warp Disruption Field Generators

Thoughts?


My thoughts are that everything but the above should be rolled out as a potential test mod as soon as the last of the d3s drops and then the above should be slowly tested and added cautiously.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#6 - 2014-11-30 23:46:39 UTC
I have previously proposed deadspace armor plates, which I feel would add more viable fitting options for the more expensive subcapital ships. I'm not sure if a deadspace fitted buffer tanked Marauder would be viable but I'd be interested to see it tested. There'd also be more bling on the field in incursions which could drive conflict.

I'd be a lot more hesitant to support the introduction of deadspace tackle modules, as they would have a very large impact on ship balance, especially at the assault frigate level.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#7 - 2014-11-30 23:52:36 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
I have previously proposed deadspace armor plates, which I feel would add more viable fitting options for the more expensive subcapital ships. I'm not sure if a deadspace fitted buffer tanked Marauder would be viable but I'd be interested to see it tested. There'd also be more bling on the field in incursions which could drive conflict.

I'd be a lot more hesitant to support the introduction of deadspace tackle modules, as they would have a very large impact on ship balance, especially at the assault frigate level.

I'd seriously dislike deadspace plates, as they won't be used on battleships, but on t3s and HACs, making taking these ships even further out of whack compared to battleships, which as my sig indicates, is a topic dear to my heart.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#8 - 2014-11-30 23:58:13 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
I have previously proposed deadspace armor plates, which I feel would add more viable fitting options for the more expensive subcapital ships. I'm not sure if a deadspace fitted buffer tanked Marauder would be viable but I'd be interested to see it tested. There'd also be more bling on the field in incursions which could drive conflict.

I'd be a lot more hesitant to support the introduction of deadspace tackle modules, as they would have a very large impact on ship balance, especially at the assault frigate level.

I'd seriously dislike deadspace plates, as they won't be used on battleships, but on t3s and HACs, making taking these ships even further out of whack compared to battleships, which as my sig indicates, is a topic dear to my heart.


I think the problem here is that 1600mm plates have fitting requirements low enough to comfortably fit on T3s, HACs and even some T1 cruisers, which is simply not the case for other battleship modules like Neutron Blaster Cannon II. I don't have the solution to this issue (unless deadspace plates come with the same clunky "this can only be fitted to these ship classes" as is found on microjumpdrives).

Not sure the baby should be thrown out with the bathwater here.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Aliventi
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry.
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#9 - 2014-12-01 00:58:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Aliventi
Aran Hotchkiss wrote:
I've seen another suggestion along the lines of this which I was against, however you've gone to the effort of laying out your suggestions and which modules you'd like to see deadspace incarnations of, as oppose to "hurr durr can we haz deadspace weapon upgrades"

I guess main points to tackle would be

Which factions would drop what?
How would they differ?

By this I mean currently we have five dead-space factions - Serpentis, Gurrista, Sansha, Angel, Blood Raider - it isn't too far of a stretch to figure out which races would drop shield modules etc, but what about things like harvesting equipment - would you have Gistii class gas harvesters, or just have a universal dead-space name for harvesting modules that all factions drop. EDIT: Oops. Hadn't read to the very bottom of your post. Whatever.

With respect to how they differ, the example I'm going to use is Gist and Pith shield mods - Pith (Gurista) are stronger, whilst Gist (Angel) use less cap - would you have Pith shield extenders provide more hit points but high fitting demand? maybe have Gist extenders provide a smaller sig radius penalty (Granted I'm fairly sure that's what faction shield extenders do currently)

I'm a bit tentative about adding dead-space/faction large remote repairers.... I've heard people say combat logistics ships need fixxing.... I don't think giving them deadspace toys would be helpful...

I am no expert at balancing modules. I don't have access to the vast amounts of information CCP has and factors in when balancing modules. I trust that CCP knows what they are doing, will do a good job, and will prevent any OP modules from hitting TQ or fixing them quickly once they are there. They are also the best people to figure out which group will drop what and the differences between similar modules.

James Baboli wrote:
Aliventi wrote:

Remote Tracking Computers
Remote Capacitor Transfers (Large)
Remote Sensor Boosters
Salvagers
Armor Plates
Remote Armor Repairers (Large)
Remote Hull Repairs
Remote Shield Boosters (Large)
Shield Extenders
Warp Disruption Field Generators

Thoughts?


My thoughts are that everything but the above should be rolled out as a potential test mod as soon as the last of the d3s drops and then the above should be slowly tested and added cautiously.

This reply it to both of you. You both brought up modules that may or may not be too powerful (Still wondering about the salvagers...) I think a properly set up drop rate will prevent them from having availability to be used in mass engagements. Which relegates them to smaller engagements, and those that can afford them. The idea that a T3 Stat Cruiser can fit a 1600mm deadspace plate will make them even more tanky, is undesirable. Aside from the salvagers, I think if CCP were to determine deadspace versions of those modules you listed were too powerful then they just wouldn't add them and everyone would understand why.

Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
I have previously proposed deadspace armor plates, which I feel would add more viable fitting options for the more expensive subcapital ships. I'm not sure if a deadspace fitted buffer tanked Marauder would be viable but I'd be interested to see it tested. There'd also be more bling on the field in incursions which could drive conflict.

I'd be a lot more hesitant to support the introduction of deadspace tackle modules, as they would have a very large impact on ship balance, especially at the assault frigate level.

I am also worried about how tackle mods would affect the meta for frigate sized fights in lowsec mainly. The ranges I proposed were hardly better than what was already in game with faction mods. CCP can balance to taste or decide to not add them at all.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2014-12-01 01:52:00 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
With the recent expedition changes we are seeing far more deadspace modules hitting the market than ever before. This is leading to a non-trivial price drop in most of the modules. I personally like low prices because that means deadspace modules are cheaper for me to use. However, I don't really want expeditions to become worthless to do because there are too many modules depressing prices too much.

So instead of nerfing drop rate, nerfing spawn rate of the sites, or anything like that... I propose that we expand the number of modules that may potentially drop. This should lower the flood of a specific module hitting the market, while still making expeditions worth it because more types of modules will drop.

Aide from stabilizing prices.. Why more modules? this increases the fitting fun (and ALODs) that are bound to happen if the modules are created. The elite or solo PvP, Incursion bears and mission runner waiting to get ganked, nullsec ratting carriers, etc. will all have a use for these modules. Everyone gets more toys to play with, more isk goes to those willing to venture out and do escalations, and people foolish enough to fit these modules and die will be handing a nice payday to their killers.

Will these modules be OP?
Not really. Many of these modules already have Officer (Meta 11-14) versions in game. Most of the deadspace modules that help people tank are already in game. Most of these modules will help people kill things faster and better. Who doesn't like ships blowing up more? Also, since these module help kill things they are not banned for AT flagships like tanking modules are.

So what kind of modules are we talking about? Here is a list:

Weapons upgrades:
  • Ballistic Control Systems
  • Gyrostabilizers
  • Heat Sinks
  • Magnetic Field Stabilizers
  • Remote Tracking Computers
  • Tracking Computers
  • Tracking Enhancers

Engineering Equipment:
  • Micro Auxiliary Power Controls
  • Capacitor Batteries
  • Capacitor Boosters
  • Capacitor Flux Coils
  • Capacitor Power Relays
  • Capacitor Rechargers
  • Energy Destabilizers
  • Power Diagnostic Systems
  • Reactor Control Units
  • Remote Capacitor Transfers (Large)

Electronics and Sensor Upgrades:
  • CPU Upgrades
  • Cloaking Devices
  • Remote Sensor Boosters
  • Sensor Boosters
  • Signal Amplifiers
  • Tractor Beams

Harvesting Equipment:
  • Gas Cloud Harvesters
  • Ice harvesters
  • Mining Lasers
  • Mining Upgrades
  • Salvagers
  • Strip Miners

Hull and Armor:
  • Armor Plates
  • Damage Controls
  • Energized Armor Layering
  • Hull Repairers
  • Hull Upgrades (Expanded Cargoholds, Nanofiber Internal Structures, Reinforced Bulkheads)
  • Remote Armor Repairers (Large)
  • Remote Hull Repairs

Shield:
  • Remote Shield Boosters (Large)
  • Shield Extenders
  • Shield Flux Coils
  • Shield Power Relays
  • Shield Rechargers

Drone Upgrades:
  • Drone Damage Amplifiers
  • Drone Link Augmentors
  • Drone Navigation Computer
  • Omnidirectional Tracking Enhancer
  • Omnidirectional Tracking Link

Electronic Warfare:
  • Stasis Webifiers
  • Warp Disruption Field Generators
  • Warp Disruptors
  • Warp Scramblers

Other:
  • Smartbombs

Some notes:
  • I left all the classic EWAR modules (ECM, SD, TD, TP) off this list. EWAR is very powerful, and I am not sure if there would be a positive impact by allowing deadspace EWAR modules.
  • Deadspace meta level (11-14 are shared between deadspace and officer) Stasis Webs, Warp Disruptors and Warp Scramblers that are already in game are set up to give huge bonuses, but take massive amounts of power grid. This prevents them from being fit to anything smaller than a BS. Which is great for how powerful those modules are (20km base web range, 40km point range, and 15km scram range.) It would be nice to have versions of those as deadspace modules. but also have smaller versions that give smaller bonuses and can be fit to frigates and cruisers. Maybe these modules can max out at 15-16km web range, 30km point, and 12.5km scram range.
  • Perhaps the Harvesting Equipment could be a new type of deadspace site that only spawns in Outer Ring (actual mining) and Syndicate (Gas mining/drug production). Or if that is too much then have them drop in Serpentis sites. Before you ask... Yes. I want to see the ALOD for the fully A-type fit Hulk that was ganked in highsec.


Thoughts?


every module MUST have faction/DED/officer equivalents, FITS MUST BE ABLE TO BE one-color UNIFORM

besides hilarious ALODS, sometimes i just really wish i could drop an extra couple hundred mil on a fit to either buy a mod with a little less fitting reqs, or a fitting mod with a little higher bonus, cause some fits are tight, others just need a LITTLE more space
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2014-12-01 03:17:21 UTC
I'd like to see a larger variety in deadspace modules along with a decrease in the drop rate of any individual type. Some of them are cheaper than not-nearly-as-good faction modules and that's not okay.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Aliventi
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry.
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#12 - 2014-12-01 04:43:58 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I'd like to see a larger variety in deadspace modules along with a decrease in the drop rate of any individual type. Some of them are cheaper than not-nearly-as-good faction modules and that's not okay.

That is more of an issue with faction module pricing. Right now things like the CN Invul Field have a minimum price because the consume tags, isk, and LP to get one. DG invuls that are drops from rats have no minimum price. I would love for minimum prices to go away for many faction LP store items. That is another issue entirely.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#13 - 2014-12-01 04:56:38 UTC
I am not against this idea, and I am not really for it however I do have a comment/question.

We are all worried about power creep in this game and I wonder how all of these new dead space modules/rigs would affect power creep?
Can they be introduced in a way that does not cause this power creep?

As I said I am not specifically for or against this idea I just wanted to enter this concern into the dialog.
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
Parasitic Legion.
#14 - 2014-12-01 05:13:52 UTC
Weapons upgrades:
No

Engineering Equipment:
I would be OK seeing most of these

Electronics and Sensor Upgrades:
Some but not all

Harvesting Equipment:
No

Hull and Armor:
I believe armor deadspace mods are in a good place.

Shield:
Same as armor

Drone Upgrades:
No

Electronic Warfare:
Hell no

Other:
No

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#15 - 2014-12-01 05:42:26 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
I am not against this idea, and I am not really for it however I do have a comment/question.

We are all worried about power creep in this game and I wonder how all of these new dead space modules/rigs would affect power creep?
Can they be introduced in a way that does not cause this power creep?

As I said I am not specifically for or against this idea I just wanted to enter this concern into the dialog.

Power creep is a much smaller issue to me than overall balance.
If something shifts the overall curve upwards when used properly, but does not change the intended balance between the component parts of the power curve, it is far less of a game balance issue. The problem with power creep is much more prevalent in theme park MMOs, where they release new content which comes after the previous endgame by design, and thus must be more powerful and epic, ans soon the power curve ramps up so hard its almost to falling over backwards. Eve has a more complex balancing act, with mobility, agility, cost, size, tank, DPS, range, application, ewar, and endurance all factoring into overall balance, and each factor contributes differently in relation to each other depending on several ofther bits.

Deadspace modules are an overall upward pressure on the curve, but in most cases, they are are modified versions of a base module where their cost is the major balancing factor and they gain a few percentage points over the basic version for a massive cost increase. Where they aren't is where they need the most attention to balance, and may in fact be detrimental overall.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
#16 - 2014-12-01 05:46:03 UTC
There are some faction modules in the listed categories that already scale up in such a way that the higher end ones can be considered "deadspace" functionally.

There are all our dominion

Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin

James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#17 - 2014-12-01 05:53:00 UTC
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:
There are some faction modules in the listed categories that already scale up in such a way that the higher end ones can be considered "deadspace" functionally.

and as modules go through teiracide, this may be changed, and deadspace versions may be a good addition. I like the concept for most mods, because they make sense and I like shiny because I have isk to throw around in ways that are entirely not cost efficient.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Aliventi
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry.
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#18 - 2014-12-01 06:09:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Aliventi
Donnachadh wrote:
I am not against this idea, and I am not really for it however I do have a comment/question.

We are all worried about power creep in this game and I wonder how all of these new dead space modules/rigs would affect power creep?
Can they be introduced in a way that does not cause this power creep?

As I said I am not specifically for or against this idea I just wanted to enter this concern into the dialog.

Many of these modules that would cause the most power creep are already in game as officer mods. You can buy a meta 14 weapons upgrade (Gyro, BCS, Heat Sink, Mag Stab, DDA) or a meta 14 web/point/scram, or any number of meta 14 items already. A majority of these suggested mods would simply be renamed officer mods that are dropped through other means.

There are the remote boosting/shield extender/armor plate mods, which have been brought up, that will likely have some power creep if they are introduced. They are mods that CCP would have to take a good look at and see if they are valuable, and balanced, additions to the game. Maybe yes. Maybe no. If power creep is too much of an issue then simply don't add them.

Overall, in most cases the suggested mods won't add any new power that wasn't already there.


Also, not advocating deadspace rigs. Rig balance is another ballgame I don't even want to get near.

Edit:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
[snip the long list of mostly no]

Do you have reasons why you don't like a majority of the suggested mods?
Electrique Wizard
Mutually Lucrative Business Proposals
#19 - 2014-12-01 10:48:45 UTC
Good idea, fills up the gaps and adds more fitting options.

I am the Zodiac, I am the stars, You are the sorceress, my priestess of Mars, Queen of the night, swathed in satin black, Your ivory flesh upon my torture rack.

Janeway84
Insane's Asylum
Evil Monkies Incorporated
#20 - 2014-12-01 11:04:44 UTC
would be nice with deadspace modules for module types that are previously missing them.
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