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250mm Railguns. Ishtars. Heavy Missiles

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Akemon Numon
Doomheim
#61 - 2014-11-28 11:34:02 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Capqu wrote:
I also like that even though a couple of [wrong] people are disagreeing about HMs being underpowered or railguns being overpowered not a single person has disagreed with how rediculous Ishtars are


That's because we are so damn tired of people whining about it, we don't feel a need to get into an argument about it for the one thousandth time.

Was Ishtar highly OP before the drone assist, nerfs, the sentry drone changes, and the reduction of the hull bonus? Sure.

Is it still OP? I personally think not, that it's mainly people too damn lazy to fly the right ships in a way that can counter them instead of flying their favorite ship and then whining that since an Ishtar is a hard counter to the ships that they like, it needs to be nerfed.

Remember vagabonds back 3-4 years ago? People whining about them constantly! "Whine whine vagabonds running through my gatecamps, outrunning my fleets, killing my ceptors which are the only thing that can catch them, vagabonds online, whine whine whine!

When the solution was always to fly something besides only ever Drakes or Hurricane. I mean christ on a crutch, it's the same thing now. People don't want to fly the ships that kill ishtars fairly easily, so they whine that they must be OP and in need of nerfs.


^ This +1 Learn how to fly what you have and HTFU!
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#62 - 2014-11-28 11:41:40 UTC
King Fu Hostile wrote:

Put one web on the target and HMs suddenly outdamage rails from 0-62.9km, no matter how many tracking comps you pile on, while having twice as much alpha and selectable damage.






ORLY?


Rails do more APPLIED dps than max THEORETICAL HML DPS at a max transveral target at 2000+ ms
Capqu
Half Empty
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#63 - 2014-11-28 11:46:31 UTC
Akemon Numon wrote:
Anhenka wrote:
Capqu wrote:
I also like that even though a couple of [wrong] people are disagreeing about HMs being underpowered or railguns being overpowered not a single person has disagreed with how rediculous Ishtars are


That's because we are so damn tired of people whining about it, we don't feel a need to get into an argument about it for the one thousandth time.

Was Ishtar highly OP before the drone assist, nerfs, the sentry drone changes, and the reduction of the hull bonus? Sure.

Is it still OP? I personally think not, that it's mainly people too damn lazy to fly the right ships in a way that can counter them instead of flying their favorite ship and then whining that since an Ishtar is a hard counter to the ships that they like, it needs to be nerfed.

Remember vagabonds back 3-4 years ago? People whining about them constantly! "Whine whine vagabonds running through my gatecamps, outrunning my fleets, killing my ceptors which are the only thing that can catch them, vagabonds online, whine whine whine!

When the solution was always to fly something besides only ever Drakes or Hurricane. I mean christ on a crutch, it's the same thing now. People don't want to fly the ships that kill ishtars fairly easily, so they whine that they must be OP and in need of nerfs.


^ This +1 Learn how to fly what you have and HTFU!


deep core mining weighs in with a htfu classic thanks eveo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5tVbVu9Mkg
Zavand Crendraven
Rolling Static
Wardec Mechanics
#64 - 2014-11-28 12:29:39 UTC
afkalt wrote:
King Fu Hostile wrote:

Put one web on the target and HMs suddenly outdamage rails from 0-62.9km, no matter how many tracking comps you pile on, while having twice as much alpha and selectable damage.






ORLY?


Rails do more APPLIED dps than max THEORETICAL HML DPS at a max transveral target at 2000+ ms

id have to say its kind of a bad idea to add drones on specific ships when comparing 2 weapons systems because you dont really get any objectivity bonuses with it.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#65 - 2014-11-28 13:24:24 UTC
So take them off. Rails still crush them. And that's not even the 250s....

The point you're missing is HML have application issues vs a shield tanked MWD target. A sig the nearly the size of a poco!

Before the "lolpainters" crowd arrive, painters aid the guns JUST as much.


The ONLY use for HML is pounding fury missiles into a brawling BC or bigger out of their optimal. And even then, guns are better.
Holy Jihad Warrior
Doomheim
#66 - 2014-11-28 16:35:36 UTC
Can you stop leaqing, leaq would not approve of this.
King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#67 - 2014-11-28 16:37:32 UTC
afkalt wrote:
King Fu Hostile wrote:

Put one web on the target and HMs suddenly outdamage rails from 0-62.9km, no matter how many tracking comps you pile on, while having twice as much alpha and selectable damage.






ORLY?


Rails do more APPLIED dps than max THEORETICAL HML DPS at a max transveral target at 2000+ ms


Yeah, really, put web on it.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#68 - 2014-11-28 17:31:37 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
How is that going to help when the HML max theoretical paper dps is STILL less than APPLIED rail damage to a moving target.


I apply more damage with 200mm rails to a moving cruiser target with 2km/s transversal than a HML applies to a stationary, shield tanked battleship. You can't break 300 DPS with a caracal and 2 damage mods. I'm APPLYING 360 with 200mm rails in a thorax with 2 damage mods. Faction ammo in all cases.

You're not even being truthful. Your claims are demonstrably false.


God forbid you shoot an armor tanked ship.
Capqu
Half Empty
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#69 - 2014-11-28 19:34:58 UTC
With a game like EVE I guess it's unfair to expect everyone to know all the facts relating to all weapons - but please for all of our sakes, take a look before posting your opinions on balance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5tVbVu9Mkg
Zavand Crendraven
Rolling Static
Wardec Mechanics
#70 - 2014-11-28 19:44:56 UTC
afkalt wrote:
So take them off. Rails still crush them. And that's not even the 250s....

The point you're missing is HML have application issues vs a shield tanked MWD target. A sig the nearly the size of a poco!

Before the "lolpainters" crowd arrive, painters aid the guns JUST as much.


The ONLY use for HML is pounding fury missiles into a brawling BC or bigger out of their optimal. And even then, guns are better.

isnt it better for the person making the argument to take them off? im not saying that your wrong just saying drones on a caracal and a thorax is different and if anything that would have to go with individual ship balance rather than weapon system balance. i mean if you would compare how fast a car is vs a boat you cant have the car being dragged by an airplane.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#71 - 2014-11-28 19:45:15 UTC
Viribus wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
corax's, highthawks,dragoons and prophecies whats up with them? .. the rest i get


corax is an inferior talwar, there's really no reason for it to be in the game

nighthawk has a bizzare slot layout, horrible fitting, and uses missiles without having a rapid light bonus

dragoons are just terrible, literally nobody thinks they're good

prophecy's a worse myrmidon, it's just a big slow garbageheap of a ship that does worse damage than most cruisers

Coraxes and dragoons are excellent brawler boats in FW since they both can fit a fairly respectable tank while dealing quite a bit of dps at close ranges.

That said, I do agree with you completely about the prophecy and dragoon. Unlike the armageddon, the prophecy lacks any kind of focus for its high slots. In an ideal setting, all of them (including the arbitrator now that I think about it) could ignore the weirdness of missiles of an amarr boat and go with a full rack of guns.

Their bonuses work alright on them as they stand, they just need a little extra fitting room to use a full rack of guns; the goddamn gallente drone boats all get at least some usability with turrets; why should amarr drone boats be exempt from doing something so simple as fitting a full rack of class-specific turrets?
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#72 - 2014-11-28 19:52:53 UTC
In regards to heavy missiles specifically, I would like to see them brought back to their pre-nerf stats, albeit with their current paper-dps stats intact. They should be applying their damage MUCH better than the do now, and the idea that they should somehow only be able to hit cruisers is a joke since their sig even with good bonuses is quite a bit over cruiser sig radius.

Raven and typhoon getting bonuses to heavy missiles application bonuses along with firing rate for RHML would also be ideal. Raven has a lot of potential in fleet with that, and 50% moar capacity on the rapid heavies and rapid lights would be perfect. Or...just scrapping the burst dps idea would be nice, kthnx.
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#73 - 2014-11-28 19:58:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Catherine Laartii wrote:
In regards to heavy missiles specifically, I would like to see them brought back to their pre-nerf stats, albeit with their current paper-dps stats intact. They should be applying their damage MUCH better than the do now, and the idea that they should somehow only be able to hit cruisers is a joke since their sig even with good bonuses is quite a bit over cruiser sig radius.

Raven and typhoon getting bonuses to heavy missiles application bonuses along with firing rate for RHML would also be ideal. Raven has a lot of potential in fleet with that, and 50% moar capacity on the rapid heavies and rapid lights would be perfect. Or...just scrapping the burst dps idea would be nice, kthnx.


I have to smile every time I see someone propose that just about anything could make cruise missile ravens a viable fleet comp for large groups.

Oh look, someones firing at me from 70km... good thing I have 7 seconds to align and warp out, or get even the laziest of logi prelocked on me.

Edt: My bad, you said heavies. Still, not seeing a great future for BS's with a weapon that only hits out to 80 km with a significant travel time. I saved myself many times back in the drake days by just warping out during fleet fights long before missiles arrived.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#74 - 2014-11-28 20:03:13 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
This would extend to the Vexor as well? So would BC's be able to use heavies and sentries?

I think all ships aside from battlecruisers and battleships should be restricted to light and medium drones. No sentries and definitely no Geckos.

I second the opinion that drone boats, specifically of the cruiser class, should be relegated to using medium and small drones. It gives them enough utility to be able to easily engage ships smaller than them, but they should NOT be able to field battleship damage to ships larger than them.

To counter this loss though, I would propse that the prophecy and myrmidon respectively get their drone mbit and m3 increased by 25 and 50 respectively, making them specifically usable with heavies and sentries. This gives a clear role for heavy damage without being broken all to hell like the ishtar is with having excellent mobility to top it off.

I would be fine with having the ishtar and ishkur respectively get a repair bonus; i think an armor rep bonus would be a nice offset to losing all that dps on the ishtar. Rolling the ishkur's drone bay bonus into the hull would be effortless.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#75 - 2014-11-28 20:07:06 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
In regards to heavy missiles specifically, I would like to see them brought back to their pre-nerf stats, albeit with their current paper-dps stats intact. They should be applying their damage MUCH better than the do now, and the idea that they should somehow only be able to hit cruisers is a joke since their sig even with good bonuses is quite a bit over cruiser sig radius.

Raven and typhoon getting bonuses to heavy missiles application bonuses along with firing rate for RHML would also be ideal. Raven has a lot of potential in fleet with that, and 50% moar capacity on the rapid heavies and rapid lights would be perfect. Or...just scrapping the burst dps idea would be nice, kthnx.


I have to smile every time I see someone propose that just about anything could make cruise missile ravens a viable fleet comp for large groups.

Oh look, someones firing at me from 70km... good thing I have 7 seconds to align and warp out, or get even the laziest of logi prelocked on me.

Edt: My bad, you said heavies. Still, not seeing a great future for BS's with a weapon that only hits out to 80 km with a significant travel time. I saved myself many times back in the drake days by just warping out during fleet fights long before missiles arrived.

It's more having a missile battleship with viability vs smaller targets being a good thing; drone boats already have it, and the hybrid and laser boats can push it somewhat with good tracking speed. RHML raven with range bonus to heavies would make an excellent anti-cruiser boat if it was given a chance...same with the phoon getting an explosion velocity bonus to heavies. Or just ditching the explo bonus and getting a drone bonus. Because it's drones online anyway; might as well give it to another ship that already has the drone bay and bandwidth to make it work. :P
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#76 - 2014-11-28 20:08:40 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
This would extend to the Vexor as well? So would BC's be able to use heavies and sentries?

I think all ships aside from battlecruisers and battleships should be restricted to light and medium drones. No sentries and definitely no Geckos.

I second the opinion that drone boats, specifically of the cruiser class, should be relegated to using medium and small drones. It gives them enough utility to be able to easily engage ships smaller than them, but they should NOT be able to field battleship damage to ships larger than them.

To counter this loss though, I would propse that the prophecy and myrmidon respectively get their drone mbit and m3 increased by 25 and 50 respectively, making them specifically usable with heavies and sentries. This gives a clear role for heavy damage without being broken all to hell like the ishtar is with having excellent mobility to top it off.

I would be fine with having the ishtar and ishkur respectively get a repair bonus; i think an armor rep bonus would be a nice offset to losing all that dps on the ishtar. Rolling the ishkur's drone bay bonus into the hull would be effortless.


Cause it's not like a hull armor rep bonus is completely useless on anything that's not either meant for 1v1's, lolfits like triple rep myrmidons, or PvE.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#77 - 2014-11-28 20:09:27 UTC
Zavand Crendraven wrote:
afkalt wrote:
So take them off. Rails still crush them. And that's not even the 250s....

The point you're missing is HML have application issues vs a shield tanked MWD target. A sig the nearly the size of a poco!

Before the "lolpainters" crowd arrive, painters aid the guns JUST as much.


The ONLY use for HML is pounding fury missiles into a brawling BC or bigger out of their optimal. And even then, guns are better.

isnt it better for the person making the argument to take them off? im not saying that your wrong just saying drones on a caracal and a thorax is different and if anything that would have to go with individual ship balance rather than weapon system balance. i mean if you would compare how fast a car is vs a boat you cant have the car being dragged by an airplane.


It was ages ago I posted those.

Here is a current version:

[Caracal, HML]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Overdrive Injector System II
Damage Control II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Faint Warp Disruptor I

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I

253 DPS


vs

[Thorax, Thorax Rails]
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Tracking Enhancer II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Faint Warp Disruptor I
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


408 DPS (CNAM)
306 DPS (CNThor)
204 DPS (CNTung)


CNThor
CNAM
CNTung

I forgot to highlight the target line in the first image. Transversal is 2117m/s. Even iron edges HML.


These are the fits I had handy - sometimes people object to the TC II. The results do not massively swing without it. Essentially I can out DPS heavy missiles shooting a 2km/s transversal target with 200mm rails from 6km--50km.

Target is a shield tanked MWD cruiser - and faction heavies barely chip the paint. Imagine an AB armor boat....or if the transversal isnt as crappy.

If I lose nearly 33% of already anaemic DPS shooting a target with a sig of 953m...I don't even know what to say tbh.

Painters boost the rails further, webs boost the rails further. Rails have the higher ceiling and get there easier and faster to boot.

I fail to see how much clearer I can make this (not aimed at quotee, just in general)


Just for laughs - shooting an ABing Armored ashimmu (sig 130) Depressing, if you use missiles.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#78 - 2014-11-28 20:15:29 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
This would extend to the Vexor as well? So would BC's be able to use heavies and sentries?

I think all ships aside from battlecruisers and battleships should be restricted to light and medium drones. No sentries and definitely no Geckos.

I second the opinion that drone boats, specifically of the cruiser class, should be relegated to using medium and small drones. It gives them enough utility to be able to easily engage ships smaller than them, but they should NOT be able to field battleship damage to ships larger than them.

To counter this loss though, I would propse that the prophecy and myrmidon respectively get their drone mbit and m3 increased by 25 and 50 respectively, making them specifically usable with heavies and sentries. This gives a clear role for heavy damage without being broken all to hell like the ishtar is with having excellent mobility to top it off.

I would be fine with having the ishtar and ishkur respectively get a repair bonus; i think an armor rep bonus would be a nice offset to losing all that dps on the ishtar. Rolling the ishkur's drone bay bonus into the hull would be effortless.


i think the prophecy should return too being the bigger brother of the maller ... develop the harbinger into a faster attack bc, push ABC's to being T2 bc's too make way for using 4 of the combat bc's as attack bc's

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Viribus
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#79 - 2014-11-29 04:53:12 UTC
esteemed video game publication Kotaku's front-page headline 2 weeks from now:

rhea: biggest disappointment of 21st century??

watch me be a scurb and get owned
Capqu
Half Empty
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#80 - 2014-11-29 11:43:47 UTC