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time to "fix" the ishtar
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MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#1 - 2014-11-28 00:30:06 UTC
So the Ishtar got a slight nerf early in the year but with the news that the ishtar is still doing 8% of all pvp damage it seems that the nerf was more of a tickle.

my suggestion to fix the ishtar is to remove the sentry optial range/tracking bonus all together and replace it with a fall off bonus to medium hybrid turrets...

this should be enough to still allow the ishtar to be a sentry ship if needed but it will truely shine as a close range blaster/heavy drone ship.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#2 - 2014-11-28 04:53:48 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
So the Ishtar got a slight nerf early in the year but with the news that the ishtar is still doing 8% of all pvp damage it seems that the nerf was more of a tickle.

my suggestion to fix the ishtar is to remove the sentry optial range/tracking bonus all together and replace it with a fall off bonus to medium hybrid turrets...

this should be enough to still allow the ishtar to be a sentry ship if needed but it will truely shine as a close range blaster/heavy drone ship.


Your tears are as always, delicious.

-Someone who does not even own an Ishtar.

Having absolutely never been in a position where the best choice of ship would be a flimsy yet short range ship with poor slot layouts for both armor and shield tanking, I'm going to have to disagree with your proposal.

It would be like the pre-change diemost, but squared.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#3 - 2014-11-28 05:22:22 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
So the Ishtar got a slight nerf early in the year but with the news that the ishtar is still doing 8% of all pvp damage it seems that the nerf was more of a tickle.

my suggestion to fix the ishtar is to remove the sentry optial range/tracking bonus all together and replace it with a fall off bonus to medium hybrid turrets...

this should be enough to still allow the ishtar to be a sentry ship if needed but it will truely shine as a close range blaster/heavy drone ship.


Your tears are as always, delicious.

-Someone who does not even own an Ishtar.

Having absolutely never been in a position where the best choice of ship would be a flimsy yet short range ship with poor slot layouts for both armor and shield tanking, I'm going to have to disagree with your proposal.

It would be like the pre-change diemost, but squared.


what makes you think i dont have an ishtar... i also think the tengu needs adjustment too.

5 low slots is more then enough for an armor tank or you can go with shields and go dps...

if anything i would swap the tracking bonus from the eos and put it on the ishtar and put the sentry drone optimalrange/tracking bonus on the eos.

personally i think the sentry bonus on a cruiser sized hull is a tad op.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#4 - 2014-11-28 06:59:57 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
my suggestion to fix the ishtar is to remove the sentry optial range/tracking bonus all together and replace it with a fall off bonus to medium hybrid turrets...

Let's take a look:

Cerberus:
Light, Heavy, Heavy Assault Missile
Light, Heavy, Heavy Assault Missile
Light, Heavy, Heavy Assault Missile
Light, Heavy, Heavy Assault Missile

Muninn:
Medium Projectile Turret
Medium Projectile Turret
Medium Projectile Turret
Medium Projectile Turret

Zealot:
Medium Energy Turret
Medium Energy Turret
Medium Energy Turret
Medium Energy Turret

Proposed Ishtar:
Heavy Drone
Drone
Drone
Medium Hybrid Turret

One of these things is not like the others. One of these things just doesn't belong.
Presidente Gallente
Best Kept Dunked
Wreckflix and chill
#5 - 2014-11-28 07:19:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Presidente Gallente
Who in an Ishtar killed your main and what did you lose?
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#6 - 2014-11-28 07:37:15 UTC
Maybe remove the sentry spec and make it a heavy spec. T1 bonuses remain the same. T2 bonuses could be +25m³ drone bay and +5% heavy drone velocity, agility and tracking.

Sovereignty and Population

New Mining Mechanics
Presidente Gallente
Best Kept Dunked
Wreckflix and chill
#7 - 2014-11-28 07:53:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Presidente Gallente
I would recommend to boost those lazy people without a proper overview and they should start to kill the Ishtar's drones. FIXED.
Leonard Nimoy II
Doomheim
#8 - 2014-11-28 07:58:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Leonard Nimoy II
Presidente Gallente wrote:
Who in an Ishtar killed your main and what did you lose?


^^ This.

EDIT: Also - why would Ishtar get a gun bonus? It's a drone boat. Mine hardly even has guns on it.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#9 - 2014-11-28 08:29:11 UTC
Abrazzar wrote:
Maybe remove the sentry spec and make it a heavy spec. T1 bonuses remain the same. T2 bonuses could be +25m³ drone bay and +5% heavy drone velocity, agility and tracking.


But she would be a Navy Vexor then.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2014-11-28 09:27:12 UTC
Presidente Gallente wrote:
I would recommend to boost those lazy people without a proper overview and they should start to kill the Ishtar's drones. FIXED.


Apparently you've not been in a fight with 50-75 ishtars if you think this wont result in a whelp of epic magnitude.
Presidente Gallente
Best Kept Dunked
Wreckflix and chill
#11 - 2014-11-28 09:40:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Presidente Gallente
afkalt wrote:
Presidente Gallente wrote:
I would recommend to boost those lazy people without a proper overview and they should start to kill the Ishtar's drones. FIXED.


Apparently you've not been in a fight with 50-75 ishtars if you think this wont result in a whelp of epic magnitude.


I've been in fights like this and we killed them because we had Guardians. Any other weak arguments? The alpha of 50-75 Oracles does hurt. A Proteus fleet with 30 Guardians is impossible to kill? Let's start a thread to nerf them all to satisfy the frustrated ones who don't understand EVE. Numbers are bad anyway. Ask CCP to change the sandbox to "EVE Tournament".
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2014-11-28 09:49:21 UTC
So killing their drones had nothing to do with it. That many ishtars will start alphaing things. I doubt it was that many and I very much doubt you shot their drones or even had similar numbers.

Point being killing the drones is pants on head dumb after about the 5th ishtar is on field.
Presidente Gallente
Best Kept Dunked
Wreckflix and chill
#13 - 2014-11-28 09:54:18 UTC
afkalt wrote:
So killing their drones had nothing to do with it. That many ishtars will start alphaing things. I doubt it was that many and I very much doubt you shot their drones or even had similar numbers.

Point being killing the drones is pants on head dumb after about the 5th ishtar is on field.


Do you really understand what EVE exactly is all about? When you jump into a 10 ship gatecamp you are usually dead. Everything gank fitted will alpha you at a special point. It's not just the Ishtar. RnK will own you with their pipe-bomb Rohk's. So what's the point here?
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2014-11-28 09:55:24 UTC
You're trying to say that killing the drones is a good idea/counter to ishtars. This is fundamentally bullshit as soon as you have more than a handful on field and you will die in a fire.
King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#15 - 2014-11-28 10:00:23 UTC
afkalt wrote:
You're trying to say that killing the drones is a good idea/counter to ishtars. This is fundamentally bullshit as soon as you have more than a handful on field and you will die in a fire.


Which is exactly the same with any ship in game, except you can't even blow up their dps.

Presidente Gallente
Best Kept Dunked
Wreckflix and chill
#16 - 2014-11-28 10:03:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Presidente Gallente
afkalt wrote:
You're trying to say that killing the drones is a good idea/counter to ishtars. This is fundamentally bullshit as soon as you have more than a handful on field and you will die in a fire.


No it's essential if you fight a drone boat. Finally you can kill their drones if you have a counter setup with logistics. When I have a Proteus with two Guardians and I get attacked by 5 shield Ishtars using sentry drones and kiting me at warp disrupt range I would burn towards their drones and kill them while I get repped up. If they don't give up you fight them as long as they get out of drones and have to bail. EVE is special because there's no walkthrough or pattern you are dreaming about. You need a counter setup otherwise you have to live with what you fight. If you have 10 Ishtars or 10 Oracles. Where's the difference? Both fleets alpha you to hell if you are in the wrong setup. Or mor worst: if you are alone. Simple as that. It has a long tradition in EVE that (unexperienced) pilots who have no idea how to counter or don't understand how EVE works especially when you fight in bigger groups against bigger groups start threads begging for changes. There are all the time new fleet doctrines to beat the other side if they don't have the right counter fleet for this. Noone of these people would ever start a thread like this because they take their time and brain what could be a great setup to fight Ishtars.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2014-11-28 10:06:25 UTC
King Fu Hostile wrote:
afkalt wrote:
You're trying to say that killing the drones is a good idea/counter to ishtars. This is fundamentally bullshit as soon as you have more than a handful on field and you will die in a fire.


Which is exactly the same with any ship in game, except you can't even blow up their dps.



Rubbish. You know perfectly well what I'm talking about.

As the number of ishtars rise, the number of drones rise x5. The ability to split fire/not waste volley fire on drones of the FC/fleet members becomes an impossible task. So a HUGE amount of your dps is wasted.

In the interim, the ishtars are tearing into your fleet and god forbid they might need to drop a fresh set.

To suggest killing drones is an effective ishtar fleet counter is an utter fabrication.

It will work in the very small scale, but the not in the problem area which is bigger fleet combat.
Evora Pirkibo
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2014-11-28 10:06:26 UTC
Yes the ishtar needs work. The trouble is a combination of things, however what stands out is it's large fleet usage in combination with the assist mechanic of drones. With a field of sentries assisting the fc, they don't even have to call targets, there is no discrepancy in the timing of locks or shots. The host ships aren't even f1 grunts anymore, simply deploy and assist, then just worry about mitigating incomming damage and calling for reps.

I believe this is no bueno, as it leads to much less active involvement from fleet members. However the assist and guard mechanics shouldn't go anywhere.

On a long enough timeline, the life expectancy of everyone drops to zero.
King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#19 - 2014-11-28 10:29:01 UTC
afkalt wrote:
King Fu Hostile wrote:
afkalt wrote:
You're trying to say that killing the drones is a good idea/counter to ishtars. This is fundamentally bullshit as soon as you have more than a handful on field and you will die in a fire.


Which is exactly the same with any ship in game, except you can't even blow up their dps.



Rubbish. You know perfectly well what I'm talking about.

As the number of ishtars rise, the number of drones rise x5. The ability to split fire/not waste volley fire on drones of the FC/fleet members becomes an impossible task. So a HUGE amount of your dps is wasted.

In the interim, the ishtars are tearing into your fleet and god forbid they might need to drop a fresh set.

To suggest killing drones is an effective ishtar fleet counter is an utter fabrication.

It will work in the very small scale, but the not in the problem area which is bigger fleet combat.


What I'm saying is that the option to shoot the drones still exists, unlike in the case of non-drone ships. Whether you have an AF wing to send upon the sentries depends on your resources.

For any other ship in X numbers, they also alpha your guys but they will never have to abandon or pull their dps.

Consequently the Ishtar isn't overpowered in small scale engagements, and what happens in blobs doesn't really concern anyone.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2014-11-28 10:55:33 UTC
the option exists, but it is a terrible idea at the levels ishtars become troublesome.

The ishtar threshold isn't blob levels though. At least not to me. I'd consider blobs at 100+ for fleet/asset defence warfare.

30+ ishtars is about the tipping point where you need them to be bad or you need to significantly outnumber them and drown them in logi.



Anyway, veering off topic. Ishtars still far offer too much compared to the peer group. It can fight from point blank out to over 100km with insane DPS, survivability, speed, neuts and ewar resilience.

All with one fit <<<< this is the crux of the issue. The ishtar has ZERO fitting compromises.
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