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250mm Railguns. Ishtars. Heavy Missiles

First post
Author
Capqu
Half Empty
#1 - 2014-11-27 19:50:26 UTC
These things need changes, and I think most of the community knows it.

Why are you not addressing these and instead doing 2% changes to scorch range?
Why are you so scared to even talk about the stupidity in the game at the moment that is the Ishtar?
Why do you think 250mm rails out-damaging and out-ranging all the alternatives is ok?
Why do heavy missiles apply less damage than a flight of light drones?

I'm tired of **** posting in all the meaningless "balance" threads with irrelevant changes and just want to see some actual meaningful changes for once in my goddamn life.

Some simple tweaks that would make everyone happy are nerfs to 250mm damage, buffs to heavy missile application (its damage can remain pathetic if you really want) and massive fitting reductions for the Ishtar as well as a bandwidth reduction to 100mb.

Hey maybe those aren't the answers but at least I'm trying, it really feels like development doesn't care about balance at this stage when the patch involves 2% changes to scorch range while the Ishtar runs rampant.
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2 - 2014-11-27 19:56:10 UTC
rails are not broken, if they are OP it would be by a very small margin. Their lack of damage choice and tracking is their weakness.

heavies suck indeed, but only in comparison to how OP they were before, they still have obscene projection and reasonable damage.

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us

Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
Parasitic Legion.
#3 - 2014-11-27 20:02:07 UTC
Ishtars, they say that drones don't have a size category but that mentality needs to change. Cruiser and Battlecruiser drone ships need to be balanced using medium drones not large drones.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2014-11-27 20:02:30 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
rails are not broken, if they are OP it would be by a very small margin. Their lack of damage choice and tracking is their weakness.

heavies suck indeed, but only in comparison to how OP they were before, they still have obscene projection and reasonable damage.


Neither of these statements are true.

Medium rails hit too hard and heavy missiles are a complete joke.

I mean, I do more DPS fitting rails on hulls bonused for other weapons for gods sakes.
Capqu
Half Empty
#5 - 2014-11-27 20:03:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Capqu
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
rails are not broken, if they are OP it would be by a very small margin. Their lack of damage choice and tracking is their weakness.

heavies suck indeed, but only in comparison to how OP they were before, they still have obscene projection and reasonable damage.


Damage choice doesn't end up mattering that much when the damage output is so high - and their tracking is in fact not that bad due to the fact that they are cruiser weapons and thus have small turret signature resolution and end up tracking much much better than their battleship equivalent.

Heavies do not have obscene projection or reasonable damage, and I don't know how you can say either of those things just after talking about rails.

Rails on a Tengu comfortably hit to 130km, Heavy missiles on the same ship will only hit to 88km and do significantly less applied damage at that range than the rails. That is without tracking or range mods for the rails, which the Heavies cannot even have. Not to mention the inherent disadvantage of delayed and destroyable [smartbombing] damage.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#6 - 2014-11-27 20:07:46 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
rails are not broken, if they are OP it would be by a very small margin. Their lack of damage choice and tracking is their weakness.

heavies suck indeed, but only in comparison to how OP they were before, they still have obscene projection and reasonable damage.


Neither of these statements are true.

Medium rails hit too hard and heavy missiles are a complete joke.

I mean, I do more DPS fitting rails on hulls bonused for other weapons for gods sakes.



Heavies do apply damage exceedingly well you just need to team it up with a bonused painter
Capqu
Half Empty
#7 - 2014-11-27 20:09:57 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
rails are not broken, if they are OP it would be by a very small margin. Their lack of damage choice and tracking is their weakness.

heavies suck indeed, but only in comparison to how OP they were before, they still have obscene projection and reasonable damage.


Neither of these statements are true.

Medium rails hit too hard and heavy missiles are a complete joke.

I mean, I do more DPS fitting rails on hulls bonused for other weapons for gods sakes.



Heavies do apply damage exceedingly well you just need to team it up with a bonused painter


I don't think you understand what applying damage exceedingly well means if you think it means you require help from another ship bonused specifically to help you.
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2014-11-27 20:21:13 UTC
Capqu wrote:

I don't think you understand what applying damage exceedingly well means if you think it means you require help from another ship bonused specifically to help you.


If turrets need to worry about tracking, the least missiles should have to deal with is that one or two people carry a TP. Not a massive bar FFS.
Arronicus
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#9 - 2014-11-27 20:25:51 UTC
Heavies do just fine when you apply that whole 'teamwork' thing. Also rails aren't OP, they're just on the side of being the best medium turret right now. But yes, we know, ishtars are overused. The sooner CCP removes the ability to delegate sentry drones, the sooner we can move on a little.
El Space Mariachi
Zero Fun Allowed
#10 - 2014-11-27 20:27:12 UTC  |  Edited by: El Space Mariachi
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
rails are not broken, if they are OP it would be by a very small margin. Their lack of damage choice and tracking is their weakness.

heavies suck indeed, but only in comparison to how OP they were before, they still have obscene projection and reasonable damage.


Neither of these statements are true.

Medium rails hit too hard and heavy missiles are a complete joke.

I mean, I do more DPS fitting rails on hulls bonused for other weapons for gods sakes.



Heavies do apply damage exceedingly well you just need to team it up with a bonused painter


that's a key difference, heavies will apply a decent (I still wouldn't say they do it exceedingly well) portion of their abysmally low raw damage potential when paired with outside help. Railguns will benefit quite a significant amount when helped by webs to hit a moving target but it's hardly essential to them to hit it, and they certainly don't need a god damned EWAR module to apply full damage to a stationary ship of a similar sig to them, something that can't be said for heavy missile boats. HMLs are single worst weapon system in the game, even worse than medium autocannons.

The supposed pros of heavy missiles ; "guaranteed" damage at whatever level (assuming HMLs can catch up to the target), selectable damage type (when many of the hulls they can be used on will punish you for not using kinetic because they only have a hull bonus for scourge), good range (compared to competitors far inferior, are all outweighed by the cons : anaemic DPS even at best and poor application which is mitigated further if the target sneezes in any direction and doesn't just sit still, and excessive vulnerability to smartbombs (shared with cruises and arguably light missiles but more apparent on Cruise/HML boats).

HMLs are straight inferior at the moment to all of their competitors both on paper and in a realistic scenario and the playerbase is demonstrating their understanding of this by not ******* using them in pvp, but Fozzie still doggedly sticks to the stance that because they were utterly broken once back when every idiot had a HML drake they don't ever deserve to be viable, let alone competitive.

Anhenka wrote:


If turrets need to worry about tracking, the least missiles should have to deal with is that one or two people carry a TP. Not a massive bar FFS.


If missiles need to worry about explosion velocity and explosion radius, the least railguns should have to deal with is that one or two people carry a web. Not a massive bar FFS.

gay gamers for jesus

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#11 - 2014-11-27 20:32:38 UTC
Capqu wrote:

Rails on a Tengu comfortably hit to 130km, Heavy missiles on the same ship will only hit to 88km and do significantly less applied damage at that range than the rails. That is without tracking or range mods for the rails, which the Heavies cannot even have. Not to mention the inherent disadvantage of delayed and destroyable [smartbombing] damage.


Careful what you're saying here

unbonused medium rails dont project anywhere near as much damage at as much range as unbonused heavies do.

nerf tengu?

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Capqu
Half Empty
#12 - 2014-11-27 20:32:43 UTC
Arronicus wrote:
Heavies do just fine when you apply that whole 'teamwork' thing. Also rails aren't OP, they're just on the side of being the best medium turret right now. But yes, we know, ishtars are overused. The sooner CCP removes the ability to delegate sentry drones, the sooner we can move on a little.


Delegation honestly hasn't been an issue for the Ishtar pretty much ever.
You're wrong about heavies doing "just fine". Even if you manage to apply their paper dps to a target, it is still lower than the alternatives, delayed and destroyable. Having to work harder for less is not balance.
BadAssMcKill
Aliastra
#13 - 2014-11-27 20:32:48 UTC
Also make battlecruisers not suck thx
El Space Mariachi
Zero Fun Allowed
#14 - 2014-11-27 20:36:23 UTC
BadAssMcKill wrote:
Also make battlecruisers not suck thx


lets be realistic

gay gamers for jesus

F3X5ON
Zero Fun Allowed
#15 - 2014-11-27 20:38:45 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Capqu wrote:

I don't think you understand what applying damage exceedingly well means if you think it means you require help from another ship bonused specifically to help you.


If turrets need to worry about tracking, the least missiles should have to deal with is that one or two people carry a TP. Not a massive bar FFS.


let me bring a rapier to paint stuff for my 300dps hml tengu, instead of just bringing 2 ishtars.
Capqu
Half Empty
#16 - 2014-11-27 20:43:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Capqu
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Capqu wrote:

Rails on a Tengu comfortably hit to 130km, Heavy missiles on the same ship will only hit to 88km and do significantly less applied damage at that range than the rails. That is without tracking or range mods for the rails, which the Heavies cannot even have. Not to mention the inherent disadvantage of delayed and destroyable [smartbombing] damage.


Careful what you're saying here

unbonused medium rails dont project anywhere near as much damage at as much range as unbonused heavies do.

nerf tengu?


What? Thats just a straight up lie so okay.
Unbonused ship used (Typhoon).

Range:
http://puu.sh/d7Wji/99ea7590a3.png

Application:
http://puu.sh/d7Wl7/e7a79f690c.png
Target used was an Ishtar burning at 45 degrees.
This is WITHOUT any tracking mods for the railguns [which the missiles cannot have], and they are already better at every range over 15km.

Again, don't forget that missiles deal delayed, destroyable damage.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#17 - 2014-11-27 21:20:20 UTC
It's almost like they are releasing a new small laser using ship, so taking the opportunity to also do some tuning touches to small lasers along side the release of said ship.
Capqu
Half Empty
#18 - 2014-11-27 21:32:34 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
It's almost like they are releasing a new small laser using ship, so taking the opportunity to also do some tuning touches to small lasers along side the release of said ship.


In the same vein that new ship is going to get zonked by any Ishtar that gives it a glance, why not take this opportunity to do the right thing?
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2014-11-27 21:48:40 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Double post.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2014-11-27 21:56:23 UTC
Capqu wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
rails are not broken, if they are OP it would be by a very small margin. Their lack of damage choice and tracking is their weakness.

heavies suck indeed, but only in comparison to how OP they were before, they still have obscene projection and reasonable damage.


Neither of these statements are true.

Medium rails hit too hard and heavy missiles are a complete joke.

I mean, I do more DPS fitting rails on hulls bonused for other weapons for gods sakes.



Heavies do apply damage exceedingly well you just need to team it up with a bonused painter


I don't think you understand what applying damage exceedingly well means if you think it means you require help from another ship bonused specifically to help you.


TIL painters do nothing for guns.....

Medium rails SMOKE HML at sub 50km ranges. Anything passed that and travel time kills you. I've posted graphs of this before.
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