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Pod Death Consequences
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Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#81 - 2014-11-27 00:14:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Medalyn Isis
Anhenka wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
In all the flailing and hysteria I see in a lot of the responses, it seems that not many have actually considered properly the outcome of a change like this.

As I mentioned, pods would be bubble immune, and so do not worry dictor pilot.

Under this suggestion it would be far easier to keep a pod alive, the only things realistically that could kill one are insta locking ship or mass smart bombs. It would actually be safer for a pod under this sytem, but when the pod does get killed its going to hurt more.

Overall you would actually lose less and my suggestion is less harsh that the current, as pods would be much easier to extract, and so you would lose less in isk terms as expensive implants wouldn't be destroyed as often if you chose to use them.

Also the penalty I suggested is a couple of days, yet I keep seeing replies saying it will be a couple of weeks. Work out the maths, the worst case scenario is a week, and in most cases it would be a couple of days.


Or we could not. Adding in barriers to PvP for the sole sake of making it more difficult is not a good idea. At all.

We can, should, and will (cause CCP's not run by a crew of complete idiots) not implement massive barriers to PvP, especially small ship PvP. Let me explain it in the simplest way possible.

CCP wants people to play their game.

You know what happens when you die, look at your pod and go "Well I could go PvP, but I'll be crippled against anyone else."

THEY SHUT DOWN THE GAME AND PLAY SOMETHING ELSE! Is this clear enough on why it's a godaweful idea?

Thank you for immediately flailing around hysterically and proving my point in the post above. If you had read the post properly then you would have realised Im not suggesting a higher barrier to pvp, the opposite in fact.
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#82 - 2014-11-27 00:24:24 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:

Thank you for immediately flailing around hysterically and proving my point in the post above. If you had read the post properly then you would have realised Im not suggesting a higher barrier to pvp, the opposite in fact.


I'd rather lose twenty pods trapped in a bubble than lose one and incur stat, ability, or SP loss for a few days.

As I keep an empty pod (or 1% engineering hardwirings at most) losing a pod is simply a faster way back to my home station.

Do you know what I do when I die in my ship but manage to get my pod out? I go to a safespot and self destruct my pod so I'm back at my station.

Explain to me how exactly adding pod bubble immunity but having major penalties associated with losing my pod is in any way shape or form not a significant downside for me as a PvP'r?
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#83 - 2014-11-27 01:19:30 UTC
Anhenka, to quote a wise man, "do not try to understand them and do not try to make them understand you, for they are a breed apart and make no sense"

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#84 - 2014-11-27 09:29:19 UTC
Bubble immune pods are not on due to throw away free, unstoppable Intel.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#85 - 2014-11-27 10:43:25 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Bubble immune pods are not on due to throw away free, unstoppable Intel.

Thank you, someone who can understand a simple proposal. A reasonable concern, although it can already be achieved much more effectively with an interceptor. Also Im not suggesting pods should be unstoppable. Jumping gates would be where they are most vunrable due to smart bombs and insta locking ships.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#86 - 2014-11-27 10:51:16 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:

Thank you for immediately flailing around hysterically and proving my point in the post above. If you had read the post properly then you would have realised Im not suggesting a higher barrier to pvp, the opposite in fact.


I'd rather lose twenty pods trapped in a bubble than lose one and incur stat, ability, or SP loss for a few days.

As I keep an empty pod (or 1% engineering hardwirings at most) losing a pod is simply a faster way back to my home station.

Do you know what I do when I die in my ship but manage to get my pod out? I go to a safespot and self destruct my pod so I'm back at my station.

Explain to me how exactly adding pod bubble immunity but having major penalties associated with losing my pod is in any way shape or form not a significant downside for me as a PvP'r?

Am I meant to have sympathy for you that you could no longer circumvent the mechanics. What it boils down too is that you want free teleportation back to your home with no consequences. I realise this is why some of you are throwing all of your toys out the pram, but Eve is not WOW, actions have consequences. If you cant accept that then maybe eve is the wrong game for you.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#87 - 2014-11-27 10:52:25 UTC
Intys can, but not with throwaway trials/repeat biomassed alts, which is more the point. You lose the ability to tell who is scouting for who.

You can't instalock a pod who is paying attention, it's (literally) impossible unless the pod owner lags. Smart bombs are it.
El 1974
Green Visstick High
#88 - 2014-11-27 10:58:08 UTC
I agree with the OP to the point that there should be consequences to losing your pod. For everybody, even lowskilled scouts and cyno's. But losing more than a few 1000 SP or a clone upgrade worth a few million is going to prevent too many people from participating in PvP, so the cost should be low for everybody. If there remains a mechnic where you need to update your clone, all it takes is a popup warning message to prevent people from forgetting to upgrade.
John Ratcliffe
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Alliance
#89 - 2014-11-27 11:04:58 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
As requested, this is an idea which I posted in GD. It is a replacement for the removal of medical clones, which everyone agreed is a poor mechanic. But not everyone seems to agree on what should replace it, or whether it should be replaced at all.

I feel Eve definitely needs some consequence for losing ones pods, after all it is meant to be the most crippling blow you can strike upon your foe, and there are stories of pilots in bygone eras having their pods ransomed by pirates. Atm though it is nothing but a free ride home, and many people don't use implants, or very cheap ones if they do.

So my proposal is below:

Upon pod death, you lose 20% of SP from a skill (the skill could be chosen randomly, but more weight given to recently trained skills).

To mitigate this you would have 3 levels of clone, each reduce the penalty by 0.8.

Basic Clone = 20.00% SP loss
Lvl 1 clone = 16.00% SP loss (Skill areas protected = 1) Cost = 15 mil isk
Lvl 2 clone = 12.80% SP loss (Skill areas protected = 2) Cost = 75 mil isk
Lvl 3 clone = 10.24% SP loss (Skill areas protected = 3) Cost = 375 mil isk

In addition to this you can protect skill areas, the amount of areas you can protect would be corresponding to the level of the clone. So for instance, if I wanted to protect my spaceship command and gunnery skills, then I could install a level 2 clone, and be assured that no skill will be removed from either of those two areas.

To protect new players, skill points could be completely safe up to a set amount, 2 million SP for example.

This would also give meaning to the bounty hunting profession. Whilst the current mechanic could continue to operate as it does now, one exception could be that if you kill a persons pod with a personal bounty on them, then you claim the entire bounty in one go.

(Also as the consequences for losing one are greater, pods should be more difficult to kill under a system like this, and so EHP should possibly be increased along with the pod being bubble immune).


Stupid idea is ******* stupid. Go and play with the traffic.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
John Ratcliffe
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Alliance
#90 - 2014-11-27 11:05:50 UTC
For clarity, SP loss is unacceptable under any circumstance. They need to remove it from T3.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#91 - 2014-11-27 12:04:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Medalyn Isis
John Ratcliffe wrote:
For clarity, SP loss is unacceptable under any circumstance. They need to remove it from T3.

Something a lot of ex wow, and other such MMORPGs have trouble adjusting too is the fact is SP is not sacred and was never meant to be. So when it is threatened to be taken they have a massive knee jerk hysterical response throwing all their toys out the pram. Eve is a harsh universe my friend, where death doesn't just mean you respawn at the nearest respawn point.

I remember the good old days of UO, I bet a lot of the people who are having a fit at the thought of losing SP never played a hardcore old school MMORPG such as UO. You have never experienced how good it is when a game has harsh consequences for death, trust me you will like it once you get over the initial shock of the usual creature comforts which you find in todays modern MMORPGs taken away.

Eve is really a flash back to the heydays of MMORPGS seeing as it was released shortly after UO, and I hope that it retains the hardcore properties which were present in that era.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#92 - 2014-11-27 12:10:50 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
John Ratcliffe wrote:
For clarity, SP loss is unacceptable under any circumstance. They need to remove it from T3.

Something a lot of ex wow, and other such MMORPGs have trouble adjusting too is the fact is SP is not sacred and was never meant to be. So when it is threatened to be taken they have a massive knee jerk hysterical response throwing all their toys out the pram. Eve is a harsh universe my friend, where death doesn't just mean you respawn at the nearest respawn point.

I remember the good old days of UO, I bet a lot of the people who are having a fit at the thought of losing SP never played a hardcore old school MMORPG such as UO. You have never experienced how good it is when a game has harsh consequences for death, trust me you will like it once you get over the initial shock of the usual creature comforts which you find in todays modern MMORPGs taken away.

Eve is really a flash back to the heydays of MMORPGS seeing as it was released shortly after UO, and I hope that it retains the hardcore properties which were present in that era.


The old RPG's I played such as CyperPunk 2020 had pretty harsh consequences...you died and that was it! Start from scratch...made being the Solo (combat grunt) pretty intense in the firefights and all the better for it...
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#93 - 2014-11-27 12:13:28 UTC
You're still failing to recognise that a "cheap" pod is already hurting the pilot every second they are in it. It is classic risk vs reward.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#94 - 2014-11-27 12:16:00 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
John Ratcliffe wrote:
For clarity, SP loss is unacceptable under any circumstance. They need to remove it from T3.

Something a lot of ex wow, and other such MMORPGs have trouble adjusting too is the fact is SP is not sacred and was never meant to be. So when it is threatened to be taken they have a massive knee jerk hysterical response throwing all their toys out the pram. Eve is a harsh universe my friend, where death doesn't just mean you respawn at the nearest respawn point.

I remember the good old days of UO, I bet a lot of the people who are having a fit at the thought of losing SP never played a hardcore old school MMORPG such as UO. You have never experienced how good it is when a game has harsh consequences for death, trust me you will like it once you get over the initial shock of the usual creature comforts which you find in todays modern MMORPGs taken away.

Eve is really a flash back to the heydays of MMORPGS seeing as it was released shortly after UO, and I hope that it retains the hardcore properties which were present in that era.


The old RPG's I played such as CyperPunk 2020 had pretty harsh consequences...you died and that was it! Start from scratch...made being the Solo (combat grunt) pretty intense in the firefights and all the better for it...

Yep, that's the kind of game I'm talking about. You are from a similar era of gaming than myself. Nowadays despite the great graphics I find myself passing on most games simply because they offer no challenge compared to the games of old. The last game I played since Eve was Dark Souls, which was great, but other than that I don't find I have any inclination to play many of these fair ground ride games of today.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#95 - 2014-11-27 12:22:31 UTC
afkalt wrote:
You're still failing to recognise that a "cheap" pod is already hurting the pilot every second they are in it. It is classic risk vs reward.

No I did actually read what you wrote, and that is actually a very good argument, one of the best arguments I've seen in keeping the status quo in fact.

The only issue I have with it is that it means that pod death can still be meaningless in many circumstances, for instance when people like Anhenka use suiciding an empty pod as a free ride home.

In my vision a pod death is something which a capsuleer should always want to avoid, and it should never be in a capsuleers interest to suicide their own pod unless they are in dire circumstances such as stuck in a wormhole.

I like your argument though, apologies that I did not respond to in sooner, but I still think it doesn't go far enough imo.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#96 - 2014-11-27 12:22:58 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Edit: We cross posted.

Proof/numbers (based on historical findings, YMMV today)

Max skill points per hour: 2700

Skill points per hour in empty clone: 2250

Difference: 450.

MINIMUM hit for a single 24 hour period in an empty clone (where one may or may not die): 10800 skill points.


So every day you sit in an empty clone it costs you 10800 skill points. Even if you DONT die. That's 4 hours worth at implanted pod level.


So please, let's stop pretending empty pods "cost nothing".


Numbers clearly skew with +2s etc, but again...risk vs reward - you gain a bit you lose a bit. There is also combat effectiveness via hgardwires etc which will chew into isk/hour (if you're the ratting type)
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#97 - 2014-11-27 12:29:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Medalyn Isis
afkalt wrote:
Edit: We cross posted.

Proof/numbers (based on historical findings, YMMV today)

Max skill points per hour: 2700

Skill points per hour in empty clone: 2250

Difference: 450.

MINIMUM hit for a single 24 hour period in an empty clone (where one may or may not die): 10800 skill points.


So every day you sit in an empty clone it costs you 10800 skill points. Even if you DONT die. That's 4 hours worth at implanted pod level.


So please, let's stop pretending empty pods "cost nothing".

Yep looks like we cross posted as I replied above. Yes this is a very good argument for keeping the status quo, although having a punishment inflicted upon you by another player can only be achieved using a retrospective penalty. Using this method the capsuleer inflicts a penalty upon themselves before any engagement has even begun.

And also the point I mentioned above about every pod death being meaningful, as when you have no implants, it is actually in the capsuleers benefit to suicide themselves, something which has always grated with me.

But yes, you make a good argument for keeping the status quo, but I would still go further myself.
Jack Carrigan
Order of the Shadow
#98 - 2014-11-27 16:09:11 UTC
Abso****inglutely not.

I am the One who exists in Shadow. I am the Devil your parents warned you about.

||CEO: Order of the Shadow||Executor: The Revenant Order||Creator: Bowhead||
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#99 - 2014-11-27 19:17:14 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:



Thank you for immediately flailing around hysterically and proving my point in the post above. If you had read the post properly then you would have realised Im not suggesting a higher barrier to pvp, the opposite in fact.



Even in an absolute best case scenario, your bubble immune pods with more EHP than the ships they've cme out of are still going to die repeatedly to things like lag, instalock ships, massed smartbombs, bomb waves, pipebombs and even the humbe disconnect. In the current system, you're out your implants and clone cost. in yours, you're also out potentially six days of training in a serious skill you require for your particular playstyle. No matter what you do.

How is that not a higher barrier to PVP?

And can you explain how forcing people to fly 50 jumps in their pod to avoid said skill loss and get themselves home is any better than getting a blue to pod you if you're on an extended roam somewhere?
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#100 - 2014-11-27 19:28:24 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
afkalt wrote:
You're still failing to recognise that a "cheap" pod is already hurting the pilot every second they are in it. It is classic risk vs reward.

No I did actually read what you wrote, and that is actually a very good argument, one of the best arguments I've seen in keeping the status quo in fact.

The only issue I have with it is that it means that pod death can still be meaningless in many circumstances, for instance when people like Anhenka use suiciding an empty pod as a free ride home.

In my vision a pod death is something which a capsuleer should always want to avoid, and it should never be in a capsuleers interest to suicide their own pod unless they are in dire circumstances such as stuck in a wormhole.

I like your argument though, apologies that I did not respond to in sooner, but I still think it doesn't go far enough imo.


You could add more meaningful consequences to pod death by making all implants into skill hardwirings and giving them larger bonuses. Or letting people double up on skill hardwirings or something. Make it even more of an advantage to have a pimped pod while you are in the spaceship.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.