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Alpha gank delay

Author
Jenshae Chiroptera
#1 - 2014-11-23 09:46:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
I know you are all going to scream and gnash your teeth but let the idea stew in your heads for a bit before you hit the reply and flame this. Big smile

Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:

Bombs hit targets. No matter how much damage is done, it only does 55% of eHP.
Pretend logi have everyone locked up in the gang.
They have 1.5 seconds to start repping that gang.
Now wave two of bombs from squad 2 hits.
Another 55% of total eHP is taken off. If any ships have less than 56% eHP they die.
There is no delay now. A timer starts counting down before you have alpha protection again.
Volley 2,3 and so forth keep coming

The other option I suggested is that logi can extend tank on ships, give them a temporary boost to help absorb the alpha.


I have now flown all of the Gallente Haulers. They all have rubbish tanks. You might be able to hull tank and shield tank a few for somewhat okay eHP but then you move slower than a freighter. The Viator and Nereus can be quite quick. The Viator has covert cloak that helps a fair bit. However, the Occator? Even trying to make it fast, it is a horribly slow ship and again no real tank to speak of and you need a scout & pings then you sit around cloaked while slowly aligning to places. Wasting huge amounts of two people's time to move a cargo worth as much as the ship (and it isn't worth what you pay for it)

Now, a freighter, you could escort with a fleet that has logi and there is a smaller portion of people that could volley it out of existance. You can't carry more than 2 billion in one because otherwise it is profitable to suicide gank it in high-sec. The haulers can be done with a few destroyers. Occator is 200M ISK the Obelisk is 1200M ISK. So, look at the value, you pay 1/6th the price for 1/10th the tank (if you are stupid and double tank it) and 1/9th the cargo hold. Joy of joys you might warp 3x faster but everything with a tackle can see where you go and be there first.


That is one example.

What I am essentially saying is that if a gank is set up perfectly, there is nothing you can do. You are blown up.

How about a volley can only take you down to 45% of your eHP and then it takes another 1.5 seconds before you can wipe it out? This would mean the logi have the time to lock, the same time as you but they can then respond.

If the gank is perfect. Then the escort should have a chance to respond perfectly and survive.

If someone sees reds light up yellow, they can pre-broadcast and then repps could land. As it is, I lock people in time but they go from 100% to explosion in one volley
The other option would be to allow us to pre-repp them for the volley and temporarily buffer their tank.

Saw a flaw in my plan, max damage should be 55% of eHP
Attacked timer begins.
No protection like this for second volley or bomb drop.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2 - 2014-11-23 09:56:38 UTC
Go find a freighter that was alpha'ed.
FireFrenzy
Cynosural Samurai
#3 - 2014-11-23 10:19:33 UTC
this seems sorta like a stealth nerf gank stealth nerf stealthbombers concotion...

I admit that getting ganked on is annoying, had it happen to me once but its not nearly as bad as you think... I move billions of ISK in ships around most of every day and if you're sensible (like i wasnt) you can do so fairly safely...
Ya Huei
Imperial Collective
#4 - 2014-11-23 11:03:41 UTC
I know.. Lets give haulers an extra Bay, lets call it the Strontium hangar, and when u volley half the shields the ship in question goes into this speclal mode where u can't shoot it until the strontium runs out!

It's amazing noone has thought of this kind of mechanic before. I am AWESOME!

duh.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#5 - 2014-11-23 12:49:31 UTC
Just when I thought all the bad nerf ganking ideas have been posted already, the OP goes and posts theirs.

Plus the OP isn't even being honest let alone thinking, before posting.

TL:DR No.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#6 - 2014-11-23 16:05:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Dear lord no.

'What I am essentially saying is that if a gank is set up perfectly, there is nothing you can do. You are blown up.'

If they've gone through all that trouble and prepared that much firepower and then executed it with that much precision, why should you stand a chance? This is what happens when you are out numbered, outgunned and out played. A lone cruiser cant win a fight against 20 cruisers if those 20 cruisers are competent. You really need to accept that this is a game where you are going to lose your stuff from time to time. And not always because you screwed up. Many times it will be because the other guys are just that damn determined. Act accordingly.

Have you tried bringing as many or more griffins/blackbirds/damnations/logi/daredevils as they have gankers. Or take another route. Or take your stuff to a different market. Or carry less at a time?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2014-11-23 16:12:12 UTC
I doubt catalysts or Talos's would have any problem with each volley only taking out 50% of your max ehp.

Thrashers and Tornado's would probably like to have a word with you in a dark alley, but you don't gank freighters or DST's with thrashers, you do it with rapid RoF blaster ships.

So your proposed change would do nothing against high value target ganking.


P.S. Your idea is terrible in its entirety. Please do not construe specific bashing of one part to mean endorsement in any way shape or form of the other parts.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#8 - 2014-11-23 16:22:46 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
Your idea is terrible. You basically killed all of large fleet PVP because you cannot figure out how to haul things safely. Here is one hint: the problem is not with the Occator. The problem is with the pod pilot's attitude and unwillingness to plan and prepare 1/10th as hard as potential adversaries.

If you are moving goods in potentially hostile space, which I define as all of Eve, you should prepare accordingly. Recon your route. Make 200 km pings off each gate. Make bounce safe spots in the middle of the system, so you do not telegraph your immediate destination. Use the MWD + cloak trick at every gate. Don't warp straight to the gate - warp to your safe spot, then warp to the out gate. Fit a MMJD to have another way of escaping.

Eve already gives you the tools to be successful, you just have to use them.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#9 - 2014-11-23 16:46:11 UTC
From my experience generally you just need the EHP to survive a single nado. Otherwise you probably got unlucky and ran into an organised camp and within reason no amount of EHP will save you or you've been a marked target for some time (usually due to flashing bling around) and they've come with the setup crafted to kill you.

There are ways to move a DST around that massively minimised the risks as well though I'm not going to give away all my methods heh.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#10 - 2014-11-23 20:11:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
FireFrenzy wrote:
this seems sorta like a stealth nerf gank stealth nerf stealthbombers concotion...


Two lots of bombers, one after another timing it.

I am talking about how you can have a 50 man fleet with logi and some indy(s). Another smaller fleet can come in and blow the indy away. Just give logi that chance

.... it applies to all ships. Not tired of seeing your combat ships get blown away with nothing you can do? Just lost the lottery? No chance for your team to apply some skill to change the outcome?

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#11 - 2014-11-23 23:10:09 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Even trying to make it fast, it is a horribly slow ship

It has a base warp speed of 3.5 AU like every other DST and aligns in 7.5 seconds, regardless of tank. What's the problem?
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#12 - 2014-11-23 23:36:22 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
the Occator? Even trying to make it fast, it is a horribly slow ship and again no real tank to speak

*cough*

[Occator, High-sec Hauler]

Damage Control II
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
800mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Inertia Stabilizers II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
EM Ward Amplifier II
EM Ward Amplifier II

[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

With level 5 skills it has....
- around 88,000 effective hitpoints (113,000 with the armor hardeners overheated). That makes it a Battlecruiser in terms of tank. You need a minimum of 16 to 20 gank Catalysts to kill this thing in a 0.5 system.

- 62,000 cubic meters of space in its fleet hanger + 3,900 cubic meter cargobay

- aligns in 15 seconds (which isn't that far off from the average 10-12 second align time for Tech 1 haulers). Or you can pulse the MWD once to get into warp in half that time.

- The trick with overheating the hardeners is that your prime them for overhating, but don't turn them on unless you see a group warp in on you (in high-sec).

Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#13 - 2014-11-23 23:57:02 UTC
Here's an alternative style to Shah's

[Occator, New Setup 1]
800mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Damage Control II

Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
EM Ward Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II

[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

all out tank

109k, 186k all overheated

The Drake is a Lie

Jenshae Chiroptera
#14 - 2014-11-24 00:10:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
ShahFluffers wrote:
[
- aligns in 15 seconds (which isn't that far off from the average 10-12 second align time for Tech 1 haulers).


It is a Tech 2 ship. Some 100x more expensive with a lot more skill requirements.

"Occator"
rig slot ="Medium Anti-Explosive Screen Reinforcer II"
rig slot ="Medium Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer I"
low slot type="Damage Control II"
low slot type="Inertia Stabilizers II"
low slot type="Inertia Stabilizers II"
low slot type="Inertia Stabilizers II"
low slot type="Warp Core Stabilizer II"
low slot type="Warp Core Stabilizer II"
med slot type="Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I"
med slot type="EM Ward Field II"
med slot type="Adaptive Invulnerability Field II"
hi slot type="Improved Cloaking Device II"

45K eHP
42.97m/s
4.13 au/s
10.41s align
0.395224 Inertia

Even if you pulse the MWD, align under cloak and have pings, it is horrible to fly. The Nereus is far better and more responsive.

Troll tank
100K eHP bulk heads
Damage Control,
2x EM resist shield
Faint Disruptor
2x Transverse Bulkhead
Cyno

3.30 au/s
171m/s
0.694291 Inertia
18.29s align

Getting stuck on the example.


  • AttentionWould a chance to apply skill not be better than losing a lottery?.Attention

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#15 - 2014-11-24 00:17:59 UTC
Just because something is more expensive or skill intensive... it does not necessarily make it "better."

Tech 1 Cruisers are generally a fair bit faster than Tech 2 Cruisers (even though the latter generally has a nominally better align time).

Capitals can be taken out by gangs (even small ones) of Frigates and Cruisers.

I fail to see a problem with this.
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
#16 - 2014-11-24 00:20:56 UTC  |  Edited by: McChicken Combo HalfMayo
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
[
- aligns in 15 seconds (which isn't that far off from the average 10-12 second align time for Tech 1 haulers).


It is a Tech 2 ship. Some 100x more expensive with a lot more skill requirements.

"Occator"
rig slot ="Medium Anti-Explosive Screen Reinforcer II"
rig slot ="Medium Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer I"
low slot type="Damage Control II"
low slot type="Inertia Stabilizers II"
low slot type="Inertia Stabilizers II"
low slot type="Inertia Stabilizers II"
low slot type="Warp Core Stabilizer II"
low slot type="Warp Core Stabilizer II"
med slot type="Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I"
med slot type="EM Ward Field II"
med slot type="Adaptive Invulnerability Field II"
hi slot type="Improved Cloaking Device II"

45K eHP
42.97m/s
4.13 au/s
10.41 s align
0.395224 Inertia

Even if you pulse the MWD, align under cloak and have pings, it is horrible to fly. The Nereus is far better and more responsive.

Getting stuck on the example.

Would a chance to apply skill not be better than losing a lottery?.

That's not a good fit. You can cloak-MWD maneuver the Occator and still sport a fat tank well over 100xx EHP with T2 mods. You don't need those align mods, you just need to overheat your MWD before pulsing it because it gets an overheat bonus.
Keep in mind this is what makes the Deep Space Transport so effective. It takes great advantage of deadspace active hardeners for this reason. Drop a few hundo mil and your Occator is very safe.

You said Nereus though. Let's talk Nereus.


[Nereus, EHP]

[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

2x Large Shield Extender II
3x Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Damage Control II
4x Expanded Cargohold II

3x Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


- 8500 m3, 59 000 EHP, 6.5s align

There are all our dominion

Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin

Gawain Edmond
Khanid Bureau of Industry
#17 - 2014-11-24 00:36:21 UTC
is this a stealth buff remote armor reps thread?
Jenshae Chiroptera
#18 - 2014-11-24 01:58:52 UTC
Gawain Edmond wrote:
is this a stealth (something) thread?


No. I try and speak plainly.
This "steal thread" meme wasn't funny the first time I read it and it saddens me that this is what passes for wit around here now. Sad

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#19 - 2014-11-24 02:14:01 UTC
If you were really concerned about "skill" being involved, you would not be rejecting all the good advice you have received in this thread.

And for the record, I don't suicide gank. I just dislike your victim mentality.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Jenshae Chiroptera
#20 - 2014-11-24 10:20:07 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
If you were really concerned about "skill" being involved, you would not be rejecting all the good advice you have received in this thread.

And for the record, I don't suicide gank. I just dislike your victim mentality.


The tank doesn't buy you any time, a ship scan and a calculation later the right number of ships are waiting. However, you can fly a ship without modules if you have a good scout.

I moved into a system that was apparently full of reds months ago. Then it was mostly blue but people would hide in dock and change systems. Now I am part of getting us more organised. We undock if we know we will wipe the invaders out. It is a death trap. No good fights, no easy kills. Almost a certainty that you will either die to us or to another fleet that will lock you into the system.

Tell me again about victim mentalities.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

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