Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Yes, more Tank and more DPS for BC and BS. These ships are slow as hell so I agree that they must have an awesome firepower and Tank in counterpart.

This is one part I do not agree with. Battleships already have a hefty tank and in some cases lots of ehp to boot with.

Think about it,
IF CCP were to give them more firepower and ehp for battlecruisers and battleships it will not take long for someone to ask for more firepower to kill them.

And IF someone would ask for more firepower then the smaller ships would be in a spot "waiting" to get boosted to the according powerlevels.

This is the very definition of a powercreep.

While CCP and nobody else for that matter can nerf people, we get into this spiral.

I think the best course of action is asking for reasonable things we can all agree upon without "breaking the game" - our game. Think about this as a peace treaty where both parties get something and if all goes well both leave a little pleased and a little unhappy.

What I do not want is going one step ahead and then two step backwards, that gets us nowhere.

So I my more or less passionate opinion on that matter is that we ask more more scan resolution - that value on the fitting screen that determines how quickly we can target lock another ship or collidable object to a level that does no longer deter us from using those ships we hold dear.

And to "ice the cake" a carefully placed mobility increase which I know some of you may not agree with (my analogy with a jet-ski approaching guns blazing a high-tech US Navy ship comes to mind).

I believe power creep, in this context, means raising the top EHP or DPS for sub caps as a group.

What we saw so far was not creep, it was cruisers displacing BS class ships in their roles.
The maneuverability of the cruiser, along with it's EHP and DPS rebalancing, have changed the dynamic.

Right now, the BS has been replaced for many uses.
I believe that giving it back it's old job by simply jacking up the EHP and DPS defeats much of the rebalancing done so far.

I think it goes to far to assume CCP did not intend this state of affairs.
It fits the pattern I am seeing, for BS to fade in use or find a new previously non-existent role.

Power creep is just ships or modules getting more powerful over time. It's already happened and it's been an ongoing process, like when tech two modules were introduced. Over time ships and modules tend to be balanced upward in terms of relative strength, as a whole. There are always outliers that get knocked down, but a a whole, devs are reluctant to nerf and usually lagging classes get brought up, rather than powerful ones getting toned down.

Almost every t1, t2, frigate and cruiser got more powerful during the teiricide, and so did battleships, it's just that the budgeting tool that they're using to balance ships hasn't worked well for battleships and battlecruisers. Overall, I think it was resoundingly successful, almost all of the smaller classes are useful now, even if they are niche uses. There are a few issues, but I think they'll be worked out over time.

The thing is, you've either got to nerf ships and modules, or let power creep happen. That's the choice they have to make, and the sort of out of the box thinking that you're talking about can only get so far, and too much of it starts leading to a whole lot of special case balancing, like all of the jump drive changes that are happening right now.

In the case of battleships and battlecruisers, rebalance involves some bigger number than they do with the other subcaps, and I think honestly think that's the heart of the issue. They're afraid, and rightly so, of making big changes because they don't want things to scale out of control. The problem with that line of thinking though is that because of how speed, tracking, and signature radius work, small and fast ships scale much more quickly with buffs than bigger ships do.

From your keyboard to CCP's monitors.

Frankly, I can make a few guesses, based on the T2 BS's in the game, but that is just my opinions where I might see them.

As to the name, it seems likely to me they simply took the name from real life, just like the other class names for subcaps.

Do you expect CCP to reverse part or all of their changes, so the BS class can resume it's old role in roams?
Or do you think it more likely, that they are going to build on what they have done already?

Yeah they did, and I don't think they were completely sure of the scope of changes it would make.

Also, I think that you might be mis-interpreting me here, I'm arguing that power creep is one of the reasons that battleships are in such a funk right now, and that despite what CCP says, it's probably going to keep happening despite their efforts and awareness of it.

That was in response of making large changes.

In case I have taken your post out of context, I apologize!

Experience tells us that nerfing and buffing can get out whack really quickly. Take the Drake and hurricane nerf prior to the battlecruiser rebalance for example.
The Drake was over-nerfed and now she is barely squeezed into one viable pvp fit that isn't worth undocking.

Before that the True Sansha ships were over-nerfed and the other pirate faction ships were buffed in Apocrypha, leaving the Sansha ships in a sad state until the pirate faction ship changes.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for a buff of battleships so they "can keep up" and the never ending up-spiral of powercreep keeps happening, I was taking that as a given.

i think a part of the solution is reducing the dps on cruiser hulls, its too easy too use cruisers T1/T2 or faction too do what bc's do.

each hull or class is supposed too sacrifice something in order too gain an advantage elsewhere..
offending ships
- ishtar
-deimos
-vexor
-thorax , although probably less so here as it tank isnt much too speak of
-gila is a big offender topping 900dps easily with a very strong tank too match most bc's
-vigilant
- vexor navy issue
- all T3 cruisers
-cerberus

Attack bc's should also get a dps nerf and made T2 and this would open up space for proper attack bc's like brutix/cane/drake/harbinger too be more mobile and project better in exchange for tank.
i also think combat bc's sig radius is far too high compared too cruisers

Battleships haven't been widely used in roaming gangs since CCP added tracking and diminishing returns to mods.

People will always make excuses to not use them in small gangs for all the reasons they haven't used them for the last decade. There is a good number of ships that don't see a lot of use for no good reason. I also see a lot of people saying cruisers have replaced battleships in their front line role, this is wrong. They have been replaced by the sentry Ishtar, along with just about everything else.