These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Save Our Clones Initiative.

First post First post First post
Author
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#381 - 2014-11-20 16:50:29 UTC
Ssabat Thraxx wrote:
Mashie Saldana wrote:
This change is great. I have about 188m sp and a new clone costs me more than 50m isk. I mostly do pvp in lowsec so I rarely lose my pod but if I lived in null I'd hate to spend 50 mil just on clones.


Good job CCP


You have 188m SP and a 50m hit on what I would expect to be a less than average death rate is upsetting to you?

I have about 31M sp and I can wipe my arse with 50M Isk Bills.

He who does not learn from the past is doomed to repeat it:

RIP Every other MMO that went soft hoping to draw in more of the Mighty Morphing Power Rangers generation.




wel then, if its so damn easy for high SP characters, why keep it around?
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#382 - 2014-11-20 17:37:50 UTC

I fully support CCP removing the upgrade your clone to save your SP costs.


It is not a choice whether or not I should upgrade my clone. If I don't upgrade it, my next clone death will cost me a month of skillpoints! No one thinks 40m isk is worth a month of training time, making it a mandatory cost!

What is more, is the high clone costs discourage doing "risky things" with your ships, which is simply poor game play!
Jenshae Chiroptera
#383 - 2014-11-20 18:22:26 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

I fully support CCP removing the upgrade your clone to save your SP costs.


It is not a choice whether or not I should upgrade my clone. If I don't upgrade it, my next clone death will cost me a month of skillpoints! No one thinks 40m isk is worth a month of training time, making it a mandatory cost!

What is more, is the high clone costs discourage doing "risky things" with your ships, which is simply poor game play!


There could be an option to auto-upgrade so you don't have to remember just keep enough ISK handy

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Jvpiter
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#384 - 2014-11-20 18:29:59 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:


There could be an option to auto-upgrade so you don't have to remember just keep enough ISK handy



Sounds like auto bill pay, which is one of the worst ideas to come around to drain your wallet while you are blissfully ignorant of rate hikes and billing gaffs.

Call me Joe.

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#385 - 2014-11-20 18:39:32 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

I fully support CCP removing the upgrade your clone to save your SP costs.


It is not a choice whether or not I should upgrade my clone. If I don't upgrade it, my next clone death will cost me a month of skillpoints! No one thinks 40m isk is worth a month of training time, making it a mandatory cost!

What is more, is the high clone costs discourage doing "risky things" with your ships, which is simply poor game play!


There could be an option to auto-upgrade so you don't have to remember just keep enough ISK handy


The auto-pay simply makes it so pilots never forget to upgrade their clone. That is nice, but irrelevant to the mechanic itself.

What does the clone cost add to the game?

Ama Scelesta
#386 - 2014-11-20 18:40:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Ama Scelesta
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

I fully support CCP removing the upgrade your clone to save your SP costs.


It is not a choice whether or not I should upgrade my clone. If I don't upgrade it, my next clone death will cost me a month of skillpoints! No one thinks 40m isk is worth a month of training time, making it a mandatory cost!

What is more, is the high clone costs discourage doing "risky things" with your ships, which is simply poor game play!


There could be an option to auto-upgrade so you don't have to remember just keep enough ISK handy

The reason it is removed is because it is a bad mechanic, that doesn't serve a purpose that the remaining mechanics can't already do. Loss on death will be handled by ships, modules, rigs and implants. Main difference being you just get a performance increase with risking more and the level of minimum risk is now lower and equal for all. Making suggestions about how the current system can be made more convenient still doesn't actually give CCP any reasons to keep it around. Convenient pointless bad is still bad. Try to aim higher. Go for convenient meaningful good.
Vol Arm'OOO
Central Co-Prosperity Union
#387 - 2014-11-20 20:26:52 UTC
Maekchu wrote:
This discussion is not about HTFU or people forgetting to upgrade a clone and not being able to cover the cost. If you think, that removing the clone costs only has these effects, then you truly cannot think outside the boundaries of your limiting head.

What removing the clone costs in reality will accomplish, is getting older players out in space more frequently and in smaller ships. This will improve EVE overall, since there will be more stuff to shoot.

I will never understand risk averse players. But undocking a 10M frigate just to lose a 100M clone, is not risk averse. That is just stupid. Yes, you can get your pod out 99% in lowsec and highsec. But what about nullsec? You cannot just say, "Well getting your pod out is easy", when you are sitting in a bubble. Come on guys, use your freaking head.

This "Save our Clones Initiative" is just for people who have a hard time with changes, or are smartbombing gatecampiners in Rancer. For improvement of EVE in general, you should welcome this change with open arms.

I'm all for having risk when losing your ships, don't get me wrong. But that risk should be tied to your ship. I will welcome skill loss on capital and subcapital ships (just as with T3s) with open arms. I'd welcome decreasing, or even removing the ISK from insurance. I'd welcome changes that increase the costs of ships. But you all cry for risk, but if any of these changes would be introduced, we'd have another river of tears coming.

Now, where can we sign up for a petition to get this change out even sooner?



No it wont improve eve at all. Getting vets into smaller ships engaging in small combat presents a disadvantage to newer players (yes sp doesnt equal skill, but experience counts). But more to the point, getting rid of clone costs devalues death and makes pvp less meaningful. Since ship loss is not a barrier to vets (at least for typical subcap t1 hulls), death becomes meaningless for vets without clone costs. Whenever these changes have been done in other mmo's it has promoted negative conduct such as zerging and other largely thoughtless behavior.

I don't play, I just fourm warrior.

Vol Arm'OOO
Central Co-Prosperity Union
#388 - 2014-11-20 20:31:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Vol Arm'OOO
Ama Scelesta wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

I fully support CCP removing the upgrade your clone to save your SP costs.


It is not a choice whether or not I should upgrade my clone. If I don't upgrade it, my next clone death will cost me a month of skillpoints! No one thinks 40m isk is worth a month of training time, making it a mandatory cost!

What is more, is the high clone costs discourage doing "risky things" with your ships, which is simply poor game play!


There could be an option to auto-upgrade so you don't have to remember just keep enough ISK handy

The reason it is removed is because it is a bad mechanic, that doesn't serve a purpose that the remaining mechanics can't already do. Loss on death will be handled by ships, modules, rigs and implants. Main difference being you just get a performance increase with risking more and the level of minimum risk is now lower and equal for all. Making suggestions about how the current system can be made more convenient still doesn't actually give CCP any reasons to keep it around. Convenient pointless bad is still bad. Try to aim higher. Go for convenient meaningful good.


Ships, modules, rigs and implants are meaningless when you are swimming in isk. There is very real isk inflation in eve. Most vets that I know, right now are sitting on huge piles of isk. Losing a t1 ship and its mods is meaningless. Clone costs ensure that there is a floor level risk that a vet must engage in when he pvp's, thereby balancing pvp for new players and old alike.

It also should be pointed out that it is an isk sink - sucking some of the isk out of the game. We certainly dont need fewer isk sinks in this game.

I don't play, I just fourm warrior.

Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#389 - 2014-11-20 20:47:08 UTC
Ama Scelesta wrote:
The reason it is removed is because it is a bad mechanic, that doesn't serve a purpose that the remaining mechanics can't already do. Loss on death will be handled by ships, modules, rigs and implants. Main difference being you just get a performance increase with risking more and the level of minimum risk is now lower and equal for all. Making suggestions about how the current system can be made more convenient still doesn't actually give CCP any reasons to keep it around. Convenient pointless bad is still bad. Try to aim higher. Go for convenient meaningful good.
Higher SP give you higher performance, not just implants.

Each level V skill usually gives you at least a +5% bonus to something (also depending on what you're flying, obviously). That same +5% bonus usually costs at least 100Mil if you want it in implants...

I'm perfectly fine with CCP removing clone costs, but the old mechanic did have a rationale: a 50Mil SP clone is certainly worth more, combat-wise, than a 5Mil SP clone.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings
#390 - 2014-11-20 21:14:02 UTC
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:
Ships, modules, rigs and implants are meaningless when you are swimming in isk. There is very real isk inflation in eve. Most vets that I know, right now are sitting on huge piles of isk. Losing a t1 ship and its mods is meaningless. Clone costs ensure that there is a floor level risk that a vet must engage in when he pvp's, thereby balancing pvp for new players and old alike.



So vets are swimming in isk. So isk is largely meaningless to their PVP. So the cost of their clones would essentially meaningless. So whether we have clone costs or not is just a drop in the bucket for these vets. So removing clone costs really shouldn't be the big OMG EVE IS DYING issue this thread is trying to make it.
Carmen Electra
Dread Knights Holding
Dread Knights
#391 - 2014-11-20 21:35:03 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:
At least I'll agree with you the UI is crap.

Going from full colored 3D shapes to grayscale 2D pictures? Really? That's an improvement? Hope someone got fired for that nugget.


The new UI is a huge improvement. Colorful 3D shapes emphasize form over function, and graphic designers are starting to understand this.

2001 vs 2014.

Graphic designers (including the ones at CCP) are making this change across the board, and it's for the best. Look at Windows 8 vs Windows Vista.

Of course, Michael Okuda had this all figured out in 1987.
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#392 - 2014-11-20 22:28:18 UTC  |  Edited by: 13kr1d1
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:
Ships, modules, rigs and implants are meaningless when you are swimming in isk. There is very real isk inflation in eve. Most vets that I know, right now are sitting on huge piles of isk. Losing a t1 ship and its mods is meaningless. Clone costs ensure that there is a floor level risk that a vet must engage in when he pvp's, thereby balancing pvp for new players and old alike.



So vets are swimming in isk. So isk is largely meaningless to their PVP. So the cost of their clones would essentially meaningless. So whether we have clone costs or not is just a drop in the bucket for these vets. So removing clone costs really shouldn't be the big OMG EVE IS DYING issue this thread is trying to make it.


Conversely, have you seen the "vets' in this thread complaining about losing 20 mil per clone for flying frigates?

Carmen Electra wrote:
13kr1d1 wrote:
At least I'll agree with you the UI is crap.

Going from full colored 3D shapes to grayscale 2D pictures? Really? That's an improvement? Hope someone got fired for that nugget.


The new UI is a huge improvement. Colorful 3D shapes emphasize form over function, and graphic designers are starting to understand this.

2001 vs 2014.

Graphic designers (including the ones at CCP) are making this change across the board, and it's for the best. Look at Windows 8 vs Windows Vista.

Of course, Michael Okuda had this all figured out in 1987.


I'm glad you're here to state your opinion as fact. Explain how coloring the buttons on the neocom suddenly makes it less functional, and you've got a good argument, otherwise, its dribble.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices

13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#393 - 2014-11-20 22:31:36 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

I fully support CCP removing the upgrade your clone to save your SP costs.


It is not a choice whether or not I should upgrade my clone. If I don't upgrade it, my next clone death will cost me a month of skillpoints! No one thinks 40m isk is worth a month of training time, making it a mandatory cost!

What is more, is the high clone costs discourage doing "risky things" with your ships, which is simply poor game play!


There could be an option to auto-upgrade so you don't have to remember just keep enough ISK handy


The auto-pay simply makes it so pilots never forget to upgrade their clone. That is nice, but irrelevant to the mechanic itself.

What does the clone cost add to the game?



An immersive game world experience? Now what does it remove from the game by having it? Nothing.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices

13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#394 - 2014-11-20 22:34:39 UTC
Jvpiter wrote:
Ssabat Thraxx wrote:
You have 188m SP and a 50m hit on what I would expect to be a less than average death rate is upsetting to you?

I have about 31M sp and I can wipe my arse with 50M Isk Bills.

He who does not learn from the past is doomed to repeat it:

RIP Every other MMO that went soft hoping to draw in more of the Mighty Morphing Power Rangers generation.





The imaginary slippery slope is a great platform for outrage without the need for things like data or arguments or any sort of detailed discussion of game mechanics.


Feel free to vote with your wallet and move to another MMO. But we both know you'll be back.



Irony is calling the slippery slope fallacy an invalid argument when we have a historical past replete with slippery slopes. Complacency is what causes them.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices

Jvpiter
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#395 - 2014-11-21 01:23:23 UTC



Are you perhaps unmarried and single? I am looking for a date to bring with me to Risa.

Call me Joe.

Jvpiter
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#396 - 2014-11-21 01:25:30 UTC
Oh look. More hypocrisy.


13kr1d1 wrote:
Going from full colored 3D shapes to grayscale 2D pictures? Really? That's an improvement? Hope someone got fired for that nugget.



Quote:
Explain how coloring the buttons on the neocom suddenly makes it less functional, and you've got a good argument, otherwise, its dribble.



I'm sure you will deny it.

Call me Joe.

Jvpiter
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#397 - 2014-11-21 01:30:16 UTC
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:
[getting rid of clone costs devalues death and makes pvp less meaningful. Since ship loss is not a barrier to vets (at least for typical subcap t1 hulls), death becomes meaningless for vets without clone costs. Whenever these changes have been done in other mmo's it has promoted negative conduct such as zerging and other largely thoughtless behavior.



I hope you have an actual example to back up this statement.

Call me Joe.

13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#398 - 2014-11-21 01:44:10 UTC
Jvpiter wrote:
Oh look. More hypocrisy.


13kr1d1 wrote:
Going from full colored 3D shapes to grayscale 2D pictures? Really? That's an improvement? Hope someone got fired for that nugget.



Quote:
Explain how coloring the buttons on the neocom suddenly makes it less functional, and you've got a good argument, otherwise, its dribble.



I'm sure you will deny it.



In case you're confused, I like the buttons fully 3D looking and colored. Both were anti-grayscale stance.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices

Ssabat Thraxx
DUST Expeditionary Team
Good Sax
#399 - 2014-11-21 01:55:52 UTC
Jvpiter wrote:
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:
[getting rid of clone costs devalues death and makes pvp less meaningful. Since ship loss is not a barrier to vets (at least for typical subcap t1 hulls), death becomes meaningless for vets without clone costs. Whenever these changes have been done in other mmo's it has promoted negative conduct such as zerging and other largely thoughtless behavior.



I hope you have an actual example to back up this statement.



Now you're just being absurd. Anyone who's been involved in mmo's with PVP know this is how it always goes in the end.




\m/ O.o \m/

"You're a freak ..." - Solecist Project

Jvpiter
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#400 - 2014-11-21 01:57:35 UTC
Ssabat Thraxx wrote:

Now you're just being absurd. Anyone who's been involved in mmo's with PVP know this is how it always goes in the end.



Then you should have no trouble providing an example, as asked.

Call me Joe.