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Crime & Punishment

 
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Are Skiffs overpowered ? Discuss.......
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Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#81 - 2014-11-17 21:38:17 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:

Now please go gank the Orca,s but the Skiff is just a bit of payback for the utter rubbish tank we had for years and years and years, the best tank ship in the past could be killed by a single Catalyst and the piot podded too, it was crass stupid and drove a lot of people out of the game.


Citation needed.


Citation there if you look back on old kills, loads of them, loads and loads of them, and in any case I am not allowed to link kills here!


Pretty sure C&P is spefically the form where links to kills are allowed.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#82 - 2014-11-17 21:40:14 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:

Now please go gank the Orca,s but the Skiff is just a bit of payback for the utter rubbish tank we had for years and years and years, the best tank ship in the past could be killed by a single Catalyst and the piot podded too, it was crass stupid and drove a lot of people out of the game.


Citation needed.


Citation there if you look back on old kills, loads of them, loads and loads of them


No, I meant about your "the thing I don't like is killing the game!" statement.


What do you mean by "the thing I don't like is killing the game!" statement ? Because that is not what I said...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#83 - 2014-11-17 21:50:32 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:

What do you mean by "the thing I don't like is killing the game!" statement ? Because that is not what I said...


The part where you claimed that people were being driven out of the game.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#84 - 2014-11-17 22:04:23 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:

What do you mean by "the thing I don't like is killing the game!" statement ? Because that is not what I said...


The part where you claimed that people were being driven out of the game.


But isn't that what you want?

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5215351#post5215351

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#85 - 2014-11-17 22:14:35 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:

What do you mean by "the thing I don't like is killing the game!" statement ? Because that is not what I said...


The part where you claimed that people were being driven out of the game.


But isn't that what you want?

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5215351#post5215351


Indeed it is, if such people are inclined to lose their freaking minds over a loss in a videogame.

But since you're making that claim, I would like to see you back it up.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#86 - 2014-11-17 22:20:53 UTC
Meilandra Vanderganken wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


140k is of course based on fitting for anti-matter or void, however in doing so you can be ganked by Thrashers instead using EMP, so its slighly better to hedge your bets in my opinion, that being said the fit I have in mind has 125k against Thermal, so point taken, that would be 10 Catalysts, again not a huge issue for the very well set up ganking groups.

For years I had to sit in a mining ship with the tank of a wet paper bag and for years when we complained about it we were called whiners etc., well I am laughing at the whining here, its wonderful.

Perhaps they should buff the yield of the Hulk and Mackinaw a bit, personally I don't give a rats ass about yield, for me its the tank that matters. And the ore bay is not that great for solo runners, you have to dock a lot, but that is the price you pay, also fitting for tank you end up missing cycles as you mine rocks without much in due to not fitting a mining scanner, but its worth it in my view, after all tank rather than gank.

Now please go gank the Orca,s but the Skiff is just a bit of payback for the utter rubbish tank we had for years and years and years, the best tank ship in the past could be killed by a single Catalyst and the piot podded too, it was crass stupid and drove a lot of people out of the game.

Thrashers are great for cheap alfa ganking but they lack fast firing guns, that's kinda important if you only have around 20 seconds b4 being jammed by CONCORD, I think you should be able to get of 3 volleys in 0.5 but only 2 in anything higher. Not a trasher specialist (yet) though so I could be off.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the Skiff and procurer sported a pretty decent tank back then too? Not the insane ammount of hitpoints they have today but still decent. Can't remember how good hulks and macks were back then tank wise but I do remember that most ppl (like almost everybody) ANTI-tanked them with cargo rigs and extenders and then complained about wet paper bag tanks. Roll

"Buffing yield a bit" is not going to cut it either I think, it needs to be really significant. For it to make ppl consider other ships than the Skiff the yield difference needs to be big enough to compensate for the fact that you will be losing you ship more often. Even back in my mining days, I did not mine more than 2 hours a day on average I guess, based on those numbers, the yield difference should be very high to make ppl worth considering anything but the Skiff.

By saying that you see the Skiff as 'payback' I kinda get the feeling that you do agree that it is maybe a bit TOO good. Lol


No the best tanking ship was the Hulk, the Skiff had warp core stab ability only and an ability to tank a certain type of explosion. Eve with the tank fitted to max on the Hulk a single catalyst could kill you and pod you in a 0.5 or 0.6 system.

I don't think you can really increase the yield enough to buff for losing a ship, there are still a lot of people using Hulks and Mac's, but more people are switching to the Skiff and taking the advice of using a tank.

Its difficult for me to be reasonable on this, because the other side were so unreasonable on their part, but if you really push me then I could admit that the tank is very good indeed, but in truth its needed, the gankers are very very competent at what they do, and in any case there are still a lot of people that are using lessor ships for new gankers to cut their catalyst teeth on.

Also if gives you options in 0.0 you can hold on for a bit while waiting for help and the drone bay helps there, plus the drone damage module, I would buff the others a bit or maybe drop the yeild bonus a bit, though that would result in me sitting at a belt longer which sets my teeth on edge as it is.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Azov Rassau
Iron Destiny
#87 - 2014-11-17 22:25:07 UTC
I don't think the Skiff is too "overpowered".
At a first glance, a drone damage bonus on a mining ship might seem inappropriate and overpowered, but if you think about it, the fun generated by that drone damage is quality level, and it's already compensated (to an extent) by the quite small Ore bay IIRC.

Though I have to agree that the Skiff is more than just a mining ship. Depending on the creativity of its captain, it can offer many other gameplay possibilities: solo gate camping, gank scouting, surprise ECM white knighting, baiting and roaming etc. (imagine a fleet of 30+ Skiffs in Lowsec, each with a DPS of roughly 400 DPS. Will carebears be rich, creative and YOLO enough to start such fleets?).

Considering the amount of things you can do with it (including dat battleship tank role and the Crow-like scan resolution), a slight nerf to its yield can make sense.
It doesn't bother me, for there are more important things than yield; like being tanky and having fun, y'know. Personally, most of my kills are actually with the Skiff. As long as I can create fun battle fittings with it, I am happy. Big smile

About Highsec; just bump them, especially if they're stationary.

Long live the Skiff; aka the Abaddon of Exhumers! Smile

Be the change you want to see in Highsec.

Anti-Ganking Fun: www.gankerjamming.com
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2014-11-17 22:31:36 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
How many Catalysts to kill a Skiff, looking at the Goon gank fit, 559 DPS.

A well tanked Skiff has 95k EHP and has a sustained tank of around 166 DPS, but taking that into account in a 0.5 system that is 19 seconds until Concord arrives and perhaps another 5 seconds of ability to fire so 24 seconds, so each Catalyst does 13,416 DPS before blowing up in perfect conditions so say 12,500 average based on less perfect hits, the skiff orbiting, so 7 to 8 Catalysts are needed to kill a well tanked Skiff.

Seriously that is easy enough for you well organised gankers isn't it? Stop whining, its sad...



Like all things in eve it's okay for us rotund folks but the "little guy" gets screwed and your numbers are wrong.


The little guy is the solo miner, not the majority of gankers.

So where exactly are my numbers incorrect?


They are incorrect everywhere. The little guy is also the solo ganker, small RL friend only pirate corporation and the fresh newbie "I saw this game and it said I can be he bad guy" corporation. Are you suggesting that one group of players is more important than another group?


If you want to be a bad guy solo ganker then gank a Venture or a Covertor, or a Hulk, that's easy enough, are you saying that one group of players is more important than another group???


Anything untanked should die to a gank.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#89 - 2014-11-17 22:32:15 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:

What do you mean by "the thing I don't like is killing the game!" statement ? Because that is not what I said...


The part where you claimed that people were being driven out of the game.


But isn't that what you want?

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5215351#post5215351


Indeed it is, if such people are inclined to lose their freaking minds over a loss in a videogame.

But since you're making that claim, I would like to see you back it up.


Well this is what I said which caused you to reply like that:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5215333#post5215333

Cause and effect...

As you know CCP does not give out these stats, however you sometimes find this out in odd ways, I joined an organisation in Star Citizen due to a friend, it was a group of random people that a friend met on the forums and they formed a industry and trade focused organisation. So when I was on there I said I was playing Eve, and 16 out of the 20 people on comms told me that they had played Eve and left because their mining ships were ganked and they were too weak and so on, some of the comments would of course please you greatly, but not CCP.

It is of course a small sample and totally random, and they are not Eve players in your view anyway, but it was rather striking to me, so I asked when they left, and all of them left before the mining ships were buffed. As I said its a small sample and totally random, but it was striking enough for me to draw that conclusion. However you can easily discount it and probably will. However CCP did buff mining ships massively, so I assume that they worked it out, a bit late but they did.

In a sense this game needs a level of prey to keep healthy, for example we are seeing the prey concept occurring in Catch at this very moment with PL farming Brave, in hisec war dec corps struggle to find easy targets and now we see more and more people getting the message and are using Skiffs, is that a bad thing?

Anyway its late and I have wife aggro, so will check in tomorrow on how you respond to this, my guess is to poo poo it as its not based on stats, but you know I don't have that data and never will.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Josef Djugashvilis
#90 - 2014-11-17 22:36:11 UTC
It amuses me that many of the, 'Eve is not a solo game' folk then complain when it is difficult to gank a ship solo in a Catalyst.

This is not a signature.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#91 - 2014-11-17 22:38:04 UTC
Another good change would be removing all ecm from concord.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#92 - 2014-11-17 22:39:29 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:

What do you mean by "the thing I don't like is killing the game!" statement ? Because that is not what I said...


The part where you claimed that people were being driven out of the game.


But isn't that what you want?

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5215351#post5215351


Indeed it is, if such people are inclined to lose their freaking minds over a loss in a videogame.

But since you're making that claim, I would like to see you back it up.


Well this is what I said which caused you to reply like that:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5215333#post5215333

Cause and effect...

As you know CCP does not give out these stats, however you sometimes find this out in odd ways, I joined an organisation in Star Citizen due to a friend, it was a group of random people that a friend met on the forums and they formed a industry and trade focused organisation. So when I was on there I said I was playing Eve, and 16 out of the 20 people on comms told me that they had played Eve and left because their mining ships were ganked and they were too weak and so on, some of the comments would of course please you greatly, but not CCP.

It is of course a small sample and totally random, and they are not Eve players in your view anyway, but it was rather striking to me, so I asked when they left, and all of them left before the mining ships were buffed. As I said its a small sample and totally random, but it was striking enough for me to draw that conclusion. However you can easily discount it and probably will. However CCP did buff mining ships massively, so I assume that they worked it out, a bit late but they did.

In a sense this game needs a level of prey to keep healthy, for example we are seeing the prey concept occurring in Catch at this very moment with PL farming Brave, in hisec war dec corps struggle to find easy targets and now we see more and more people getting the message and are using Skiffs, is that a bad thing?

Anyway its late and I have wife aggro, so will check in tomorrow on how you respond to this, my guess is to poo poo it as its not based on stats, but you know I don't have that data and never will.


Anecdotes aren't evidence.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Tengu Grib
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#93 - 2014-11-17 22:40:36 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
It amuses me that many of the, 'Eve is not a solo game' folk then complain when it is difficult to gank a ship solo in a Catalyst.


Show me where anyone said that Skiffs should be solo gankable?

Rabble Rabble Rabble

Praise James, Supreme Protector of High Sec.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#94 - 2014-11-17 23:00:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Dracvlad wrote:

As you know CCP does not give out these stats


That's all I needed to hear. So you've got nothing.

Quote:

Anyway its late and I have wife aggro, so will check in tomorrow on how you respond to this, my guess is to poo poo it as its not based on stats, but you know I don't have that data and never will.


That's my point entirely. If you know full well that you can't back up that assertion, don't make it in the first place.

And as for your Star Citizen friends, I have been on those forums for a while now. That game's playerbase are hilariously bad people, starting with their pay to win forum. If they were driven out of EVE Online because other people are allowed to shoot them, then I can't really say that it's a big loss to the game.

Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
It amuses me that many of the, 'Eve is not a solo game' folk then complain when it is difficult to gank a ship solo in a Catalyst.


The hypocrisy of your side is hilarious, to be honest.

So EVE Online is supposed to be a solo game, but just not for me or anything I like to do, right?

If it's supposed to be a solo game, then it should be so for everyone, not just the roid sucking zombies.

But it all comes down to the fact that I recognize that EVE Online is not a solo game. But because of game imbalances, it is so for certain elements. And I want that pared down. Antisocial behavior should be a sub optimal playstyle, and the Skiff having such a high yield compared to it's tank runs counter to that.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Ned Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#95 - 2014-11-18 00:09:40 UTC
I do most of my mining in a Prospect, and if I jump up to a barge I generally only use a max tank Procurer, and have no experience flying a Skiff. That said, I do think both the Procurer and Skiff could do with another nerf to their yield. Fitted for max yield, a Proc/Skiff should outperform an unfit Ret/Mack, but that Ret/Mack should be able to fit for significantly higher yield. I think the Mackinaw and Retriever are in a good place yield wise and should stay the same.

Either the role bonus on the Proc/Skiff needs to be reduced again (100% bonus to strip miner yield, 33.3% reduction in ice harvester duration and activation) or the duration bonus should be removed from the mining barge skill level. For shts and giggles, replace it with an additional drone damage and hitpoint bonus.

Neither the Proc or Skiff should be made any easier to kill. It's supposed to be a brick. Let it be a brick.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#96 - 2014-11-18 04:39:52 UTC
I'm fine with Skiffs being unable to be soloed, but they are a tad ridiculous at the moment.

We in CODE. can get them, because we are organised and determined. The problem is that noone except for the most organised groups can kill Skiffs, even when the Skiff pilot is extremely stupid.

Incidentally the same is true of Marauders. Despite being skilled into them, I'd support them getting slapped with the nerfbat a little. (Until then, I will field the OP ship in PVP from time to time).

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Shiloh Templeton
Cheyenne HET Co
#97 - 2014-11-18 05:31:12 UTC
Did CCP add miners to the game so gankers would have something to do?

Perhaps CCP has struck the right balance if both miners and gankers are complaining that the other side is OP. Maybe you can't hit every miner with little effort, cost or teamwork, but there are plenty of easy miner tears to be found.

With an orca boost a mining barge will need to take a manual action to empty the ore hold every:
- hulk ~ 2.5 minutes
- skiff ~ 6.5 minutes
- mack ~ 23 minutes

The idea of making a miner manually restart the strip miner every cycle seems the equivalent of making a Mach manually load ammo after every 25 shots.


A shield boosted skiff with 3 laser upgrades in the lows will have an EHP under 60K EHP. Having the 3 laser upgrades is the only way the skiff will be close to the mack in mining yield.


From my experience the big Code ganking squads usually make an example of at least one skiff, but prefer to use that kind of firepower on an Orca which has a better isk ratio and better salvage.

Last point is that skiffs are used in more areas than High-sec. The following KB link shows that skiffs get a lot of action in null and with wardecs.

I don't think I can link KB, but if you add this: "/&scl_id=12?a=home&m=11&y=2014&view=kills&scl_id=22" to the end of eve-kill.net you can look at the data.



Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#98 - 2014-11-18 07:44:53 UTC
Tengu Grib wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
It amuses me that many of the, 'Eve is not a solo game' folk then complain when it is difficult to gank a ship solo in a Catalyst.


Show me where anyone said that Skiffs should be solo gankable?


This is where it is suggested:

La Nariz wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
How many Catalysts to kill a Skiff, looking at the Goon gank fit, 559 DPS.

A well tanked Skiff has 95k EHP and has a sustained tank of around 166 DPS, but taking that into account in a 0.5 system that is 19 seconds until Concord arrives and perhaps another 5 seconds of ability to fire so 24 seconds, so each Catalyst does 13,416 DPS before blowing up in perfect conditions so say 12,500 average based on less perfect hits, the skiff orbiting, so 7 to 8 Catalysts are needed to kill a well tanked Skiff.

Seriously that is easy enough for you well organised gankers isn't it? Stop whining, its sad...



Like all things in eve it's okay for us rotund folks but the "little guy" gets screwed and your numbers are wrong.


When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Josef Djugashvilis
#99 - 2014-11-18 07:47:17 UTC
Dear, poor, benighted Kaarous, I do not have a 'side' in the game.

I do not care how folk play the game, solo, in small groups, or in large alliances, so long as they do not break any of CCPs rules.

In fact, the only time I have ever expressed an opinion in terms of game balance was to say that null-sec needed more enjoyable content for the folks who live there.

For what it is worth, I did not in any way suggest that the game should, or should not be played solo.

But hey, do not let what I actually posted get in the way of your crazy posting.

This is not a signature.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#100 - 2014-11-18 08:05:25 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Dear, poor, benighted Kaarous, I do not have a 'side' in the game.

I do not care how folk play the game, solo, in small groups, or in large alliances, so long as they do not break any of CCPs rules.

In fact, the only time I have ever expressed an opinion in terms of game balance was to say that null-sec needed more enjoyable content for the folks who live there.

For what it is worth, I did not in any way suggest that the game should, or should not be played solo.

But hey, do not let what I actually posted get in the way of your crazy posting.


He loves putting words into your mouth in his replies, its hilarious, he also selectively quotes.

In his replies to me, he of course knows full well that CCP have not detailed subscription numbers, he discounts this incident that I detailed which shocked me to be honest, and ignores the simple undeniable fact that CCP suddenly looked at the tanks and buffed them and then buffed them some more, maybe they did it to get back at his posting Big smile

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp