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Save Our Clones Initiative.

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Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#241 - 2014-11-17 18:40:17 UTC
good riddance it was a really dumb and annoying game mechanic.

forums.  serious business.
Tri Vetra
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#242 - 2014-11-17 19:01:36 UTC
this is just like when learning skills got removed and some people were complaining about it using words like "freedom of choice" or "dumbing down" and "world of warcraft", these people are space equivalent of climate change deniers
Arth Lawing
Penumbra Institute
#243 - 2014-11-17 19:24:00 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:

Clone grades aren't like that. There's no reason you would ever not upgrade a clone, other than being unable to spare the money.



That is a reason then. Forgetting is also a reason, which would be Darwinian in nature, Mr Darwin...
Mharius Skjem
Guardians of the Underworld
#244 - 2014-11-17 19:27:29 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
13kr1d1 wrote:
Unezka Turigahl wrote:
Most games have one death and it is meaningless. Eve has two deaths that are both full loot-loss deaths with the possibility for a third XP death if you're forgetful. It stupid. It adds nothing. Good riddance.

And no, I've never personally lost XP. I just know stupid when I see it.


So you don't like the core of Eve gameplay. Don't wander into lowsec, you may not enjoy it.


With the caveat that I'm not a game designer, I do understand the reasoning and I'll share it.

The fundamental issue is that clone grades don't add a choice. When you are pod killed, you aren't presented with an interesting question -- "Should I upgrade my pod? How much should I upgrade it?"

Instead, you either upgrade, and protect your skill points against an inevitable further pod kill, or you don't, and suffer. One choice is so incredibly better than the other that you'll always pick it, unless you happen to forget.

Good game design isn't about punishing mere forgetfulness. It should be about presenting a meaningful choice to a player and letting them pick which way to go, with benefits to offset risk. Clone upgrade costs just don't do that -- they present a choice for which there's only one right answer.


Thing is though, some of us want eve to be a science fiction simulator, as per CCP Seagul's words. There's lots of choices in real life for which there is only one answer, such as should I insure my car? The consequcnes for not chooseing are pretty drastic if you get it wrong.

Nobody ever forgets to upgrade your clone once you are past a noob's sp level. It's ingrained into you, like locking the door of the house behind you when you got out for a long period of time.

I'm not against the removal of clone grades per se, but I do think that death should have a sting in your tail, if it doesn't then dying isn't meaningful. If dying isn't meaningful then playing eve isn't meaningful, as there's one less reason to be emotionally engaged with your character.

If there's nothing to risk, there's no real contest, and if there's no real contest, there's no real game. Why bother playing?



A recovering btter vet,  with a fresh toon and a determination to like everything that CCP does to Eve...

Don't take me too seriously though, I like to tease a bit on the forums, but that's only because I love you...
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#245 - 2014-11-17 19:40:01 UTC
Mharius Skjem wrote:
If dying isn't meaningful then playing eve isn't meaningful, as there's one less reason to be emotionally engaged with your character.

If there's nothing to risk, there's no real contest, and if there's no real contest, there's no real game. Why bother playing?


Wow again with hyperbole.

So explain how removing this one piece, clone costs moves us to nothing to risk and meaningless death?


There is still plenty of risk to go around, and death has plenty of meaning aside from the simple clone upgrade cost.

Primarily your ship costs. Given that more people save their pods than lose them, this doesn't really change.
There are implant costs, which are a true choice. Do I run with implants to gain a boost to training and/or that edge in combat but risk more isk?
There is location costs. Depending on where you live vs where you are fighting, a podding could take you out of the fight permanently. A podding in a WH can mean hours just trying to find a way back home.


Bottom line is there are PLENTY of reasons to still try and save your pod.
Solhild
Doomheim
#246 - 2014-11-17 19:56:43 UTC
I am delighted that the clone nonsense is being sorted and the s.p. penalty is going.

There are better ways to punish us for risk with the isk lost in the ship and modules.

I'll now use my main characters in much more risky situations so those 120million sp clones will get out and about in frigates and cruisers.

This should help me get back to enjoying EVE as it was getting a bit stale.

Those people who feel that they should lose sp when podded are welcome to pause their skill queues for a few days/weeks after podding to make themselves feel better.
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#247 - 2014-11-17 20:04:58 UTC
I've lost a couple million SP because I was forgetful.

F*** clone grades.

That is all.

Cry

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#248 - 2014-11-17 20:31:19 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:

Wow again with hyperbole.

So explain how removing this one piece, clone costs moves us to nothing to risk and meaningless death?


There is still plenty of risk to go around, and death has plenty of meaning aside from the simple clone upgrade cost.

Primarily your ship costs. Given that more people save their pods than lose them, this doesn't really change.
There are implant costs, which are a true choice. Do I run with implants to gain a boost to training and/or that edge in combat but risk more isk?
There is location costs. Depending on where you live vs where you are fighting, a podding could take you out of the fight permanently. A podding in a WH can mean hours just trying to find a way back home.


Bottom line is there are PLENTY of reasons to still try and save your pod.

Actually learning implants are very much the same boat as clone grades. As they punish you for actually engaging in gameplay. While the other implants have real gameplay effects that only work when undocked learning implants have the same effect while docked so don't reward you for undocking with them in.

Everything else is spot on.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#249 - 2014-11-17 20:43:16 UTC
I have removed a rule breaking post and those quoting it.

The Rules:
3. Ranting is prohibited.

A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counter productive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents.

4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Kamahl Daikun
State War Academy
Caldari State
#250 - 2014-11-17 20:43:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Kamahl Daikun
Snip.
Ryomaru Reaper
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#251 - 2014-11-17 20:46:32 UTC
Thanks ISD Ezwal, for cleaning up this thread. If I crossed a line somewhere I do apolagise for the inconvenience imposed on you.

On topic: I am glad the DEVS are changing certain obsolete aspects of the game, and revising them into better ones, I can't wait to see the end result.

Kudos, to CCP.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#252 - 2014-11-17 20:56:20 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:

Wow again with hyperbole.

So explain how removing this one piece, clone costs moves us to nothing to risk and meaningless death?


There is still plenty of risk to go around, and death has plenty of meaning aside from the simple clone upgrade cost.

Primarily your ship costs. Given that more people save their pods than lose them, this doesn't really change.
There are implant costs, which are a true choice. Do I run with implants to gain a boost to training and/or that edge in combat but risk more isk?
There is location costs. Depending on where you live vs where you are fighting, a podding could take you out of the fight permanently. A podding in a WH can mean hours just trying to find a way back home.


Bottom line is there are PLENTY of reasons to still try and save your pod.

Actually learning implants are very much the same boat as clone grades. As they punish you for actually engaging in gameplay. While the other implants have real gameplay effects that only work when undocked learning implants have the same effect while docked so don't reward you for undocking with them in.

Everything else is spot on.


Actually not really. Learning implants are still a true choice. Everyone in EVE is guaranteed a minimum baseline SP/hr. You can CHOOSE to make that go faster with learning implants at the RISK of your pod being worth a higher value. But they are in no way required. I can tell you as an example, in my entire EVE career I have never gone above +3 implants as I have spent most of my time in WH space and wouldn't risk anything more expense. However I in no way have ever felt that has penalized me over someone in HS running around with +5's

So no, very much not the same.
Lady Ayeipsia
BlueWaffe
#253 - 2014-11-17 20:59:59 UTC
From the view point of CCP, an acceptible game play choice would be...

1) Upgrade your clone, train at normal speed, no skill loss on death.

or

2) Buy a training clone, train X% faster, lose skill points if you die.


This would create a trade off where the choice you make has a consequence. The old system was more if you don't do X, you are screwed. The only ones not doing X are those who forget. CCP seems to want to move away from this, so must scrap the old system. I am fine with this and want to see if we do gain interesting choices.
Ryomaru Reaper
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#254 - 2014-11-17 21:01:19 UTC
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
From the view point of CCP, an acceptible game play choice would be...

1) Upgrade your clone, train at normal speed, no skill loss on death.

or

2) Buy a training clone, train X% faster, lose skill points if you die.


This would create a trade off where the choice you make has a consequence. The old system was more if you don't do X, you are screwed. The only ones not doing X are those who forget. CCP seems to want to move away from this, so must scrap the old system. I am fine with this and want to see if we do gain interesting choices.


Now this is something I wholeheartedly agree with, in every single point made here.
Amarrian Cougar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#255 - 2014-11-17 21:18:30 UTC
Kamahl Daikun wrote:
Amarrian Cougar wrote:
This change is a win\win all around and anyone that opposes it is out of touch.

1. This change will create content. People won't be as reluctant to PVP for fear of losing a clone.
2. Fights will be better. People will be less inclined to GTFO during a fight to save their clone.
3. Older players will be more inclined to PvP again without fear of losing a clone worth more than 7 of their ships.
4. No more "oops, my character received brain damage because I forgot to pay a bill"
5. More death will result from this, meaning more players will most likely resub.


1. People are reluctant to PvP for a variety of reasons. Anyone who actually call themselves PvPers know better than to lose a clone. The only reason you didn't get your Capsule out is because of a warp bubble or a perfectly timed bomb.

2. People are inclined to gtfo to save their ship. What's more important, a 50m ship or a 2m clone?

3. If you're an 'older' player, you know how to not lose a clone. Whoever legit kills your Capsule obviously earned it. Or you're an idiot and you deserve to pay for another clone and/or lose SP.

4. Valid reasons always include a ridiculous retort with no context to the actual topic.

5. If you're too dumb to get your Capsule out and unsubbed because of it, good riddance.

I'm not sure who's out of touch here - The people who believe there should be a repercussion for PvP or the ones who want to carebear the entire game.


1. Your reason is the exact reason a lot of older characters DON'T pvp. The ship doesn't mean so much but getting your ship killed in a bubble is almost a 100% certainty of getting pod killed. When your pod cost more than triple the cost of the fleet doctrine ship and knowing your almost certainly going to be in a fight with bubbles...........why risk it? Removing clone cost removes this risk and thereby gives incentives for more players to re-enter the pvp arena.

2. A 2m sp char IS probably worried about a ship. A 150-200 mil sp probably doesn't care about ONE ship, but the incredibly expensive clone is a constant source of worry, regardless of ship or activity. This is a stress that doesn't scale properly between new players and old.

3. We are humans. Humans make mistakes. Mistakes should be punished. The punishment for these older players DOES NOT match the crime however.

4. Ridiculous retort? Maybe if that wasn't EXACTLY the situation and response every single time it happens.

5. Causality. Look into it. No clone cost means more people pvping. More people pvping means more content. more content means more incentive to return for an unsubbed character. The list of people I know that have unsubbed due to being "bored" is to numerous to list. Every little bit that creates content and action is a good change, regardless of how small.
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#256 - 2014-11-17 21:35:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Gogela
Amarrian Cougar wrote:

1. Your reason is the exact reason a lot of older characters DON'T pvp. The ship doesn't mean so much but getting your ship killed in a bubble is almost a 100% certainty of getting pod killed. When your pod cost more than triple the cost of the fleet doctrine ship and knowing your almost certainly going to be in a fight with bubbles...........why risk it? Removing clone cost removes this risk and thereby gives incentives for more players to re-enter the pvp arena.

2. A 2m sp char IS probably worried about a ship. A 150-200 mil sp probably doesn't care about ONE ship, but the incredibly expensive clone is a constant source of worry, regardless of ship or activity. This is a stress that doesn't scale properly between new players and old.

3. We are humans. Humans make mistakes. Mistakes should be punished. The punishment for these older players DOES NOT match the crime however.

4. Ridiculous retort? Maybe if that wasn't EXACTLY the situation and response every single time it happens.

5. Causality. Look into it. No clone cost means more people pvping. More people pvping means more content. more content means more incentive to return for an unsubbed character. The list of people I know that have unsubbed due to being "bored" is to numerous to list. Every little bit that creates content and action is a good change, regardless of how small.

Pretty much all of this. Look, we take enough risk in with implants. At any given time I have at least 300 mil in my head. The clone cost is just a tax... the risk & choice is in the implants. We make a choice when we put in our implants... the clone cost thing is no choice at at all... it's just a punishment for sticking around in EvE. It's lame.

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Tavin Aikisen
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#257 - 2014-11-17 21:38:10 UTC
What I don't understand is how suddenly capsuleers are no longer paying for clones of any kind? That doesn't really fit the lore. I can't imagine corporations giving us free clones at their own expense.

Can't say I'm a fan of the change either. This new crew seems bent on simplifying everything just for the sake of it.

"Remember this. Trust your eyes, you will kill each other. Trust your veins, you can all go home."

-Cold Wind
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#258 - 2014-11-17 21:40:15 UTC
Mharius Skjem wrote:
CCP Darwin wrote:
13kr1d1 wrote:
Unezka Turigahl wrote:
Most games have one death and it is meaningless. Eve has two deaths that are both full loot-loss deaths with the possibility for a third XP death if you're forgetful. It stupid. It adds nothing. Good riddance.

And no, I've never personally lost XP. I just know stupid when I see it.


So you don't like the core of Eve gameplay. Don't wander into lowsec, you may not enjoy it.


With the caveat that I'm not a game designer, I do understand the reasoning and I'll share it.

The fundamental issue is that clone grades don't add a choice. When you are pod killed, you aren't presented with an interesting question -- "Should I upgrade my pod? How much should I upgrade it?"

Instead, you either upgrade, and protect your skill points against an inevitable further pod kill, or you don't, and suffer. One choice is so incredibly better than the other that you'll always pick it, unless you happen to forget.

Good game design isn't about punishing mere forgetfulness. It should be about presenting a meaningful choice to a player and letting them pick which way to go, with benefits to offset risk. Clone upgrade costs just don't do that -- they present a choice for which there's only one right answer.


Thing is though, some of us want eve to be a science fiction simulator, as per CCP Seagul's words. There's lots of choices in real life for which there is only one answer, such as should I insure my car? The consequcnes for not chooseing are pretty drastic if you get it wrong.

Nobody ever forgets to upgrade your clone once you are past a noob's sp level. It's ingrained into you, like locking the door of the house behind you when you got out for a long period of time.

I'm not against the removal of clone grades per se, but I do think that death should have a sting in your tail, if it doesn't then dying isn't meaningful. If dying isn't meaningful then playing eve isn't meaningful, as there's one less reason to be emotionally engaged with your character.

If there's nothing to risk, there's no real contest, and if there's no real contest, there's no real game. Why bother playing?





Bolded what I am replying to. As an 11 year (nearly) vet with 130m sp's I can tell you that people forget to upgrade all the damn time. ESP if you are in say wh space for months and have no reason to go to empire. Recently one of my alts who is mearly my hauler alt, crossed the threshold that her clone was upgraded to, and because I have not docked her in a station for months, I never bothered to check. Well she had gone over by a million or so sp's, and then I got jumped in a wh while moving fuel. I lost my 300m isk of fuel, my 100m isk blocadge runner (got caught on a can and could not cloak in time) then lost my 20m isk pod. So I lost arounf 500m isk. Fine, np, but the kicker was I also lost frighters 5. So now I have to spend another 60 days recruing the sp's I lost... all because there was no way to upgrade a clone in W space, and no easy identify to tell if I have to change my clone. Esp as I had a long skill set and did not bother to check the sp levels. Yes it was my fault, but yes highly annoying.

In addition, my main (me) clone is a 40m isk clone. This means I do not want to fly anything under that threshold. Hell I have issues even flying my prospect because my pod is worth more then the ship.

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#259 - 2014-11-17 21:45:30 UTC  |  Edited by: 13kr1d1
Sounds almost like dont fly what you cant afford to lose to me. Oh, except you can keep yourself from losing any SP if you bothered.

Davin Aikisen wrote:
What I don't understand is how suddenly capsuleers are no longer paying for clones of any kind? That doesn't really fit the lore. I can't imagine corporations giving us free clones at their own expense.

Can't say I'm a fan of the change either. This new crew seems bent on simplifying everything just for the sake of it.


Which is exactly what I was saying when talking about the history of EvE, the reason clone upkeep exists, and the problems inherent in removing it. Where do we stop? How about no ISK loss when podded? Let's remove implants, too, first the learning ones, then the combat ones, since they represent a loss if we forget to warp out in time and get out snake head podded. What about POS fuel? That's a forced option, and upkeep, and forgetting is going to offline your POS and has drastic consequences.

You know what they could do instead? Have a toggle option to automatically deduct clone cost payment from your wallet. Now it's no longer a "punished for forget" option.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
Vol Arm'OOO
Central Co-Prosperity Union
#260 - 2014-11-17 21:47:44 UTC
DaReaper wrote:
Mharius Skjem wrote:
CCP Darwin wrote:
13kr1d1 wrote:
Unezka Turigahl wrote:
Most games have one death and it is meaningless. Eve has two deaths that are both full loot-loss deaths with the possibility for a third XP death if you're forgetful. It stupid. It adds nothing. Good riddance.

And no, I've never personally lost XP. I just know stupid when I see it.


So you don't like the core of Eve gameplay. Don't wander into lowsec, you may not enjoy it.


With the caveat that I'm not a game designer, I do understand the reasoning and I'll share it.

The fundamental issue is that clone grades don't add a choice. When you are pod killed, you aren't presented with an interesting question -- "Should I upgrade my pod? How much should I upgrade it?"

Instead, you either upgrade, and protect your skill points against an inevitable further pod kill, or you don't, and suffer. One choice is so incredibly better than the other that you'll always pick it, unless you happen to forget.

Good game design isn't about punishing mere forgetfulness. It should be about presenting a meaningful choice to a player and letting them pick which way to go, with benefits to offset risk. Clone upgrade costs just don't do that -- they present a choice for which there's only one right answer.


Thing is though, some of us want eve to be a science fiction simulator, as per CCP Seagul's words. There's lots of choices in real life for which there is only one answer, such as should I insure my car? The consequcnes for not chooseing are pretty drastic if you get it wrong.

Nobody ever forgets to upgrade your clone once you are past a noob's sp level. It's ingrained into you, like locking the door of the house behind you when you got out for a long period of time.

I'm not against the removal of clone grades per se, but I do think that death should have a sting in your tail, if it doesn't then dying isn't meaningful. If dying isn't meaningful then playing eve isn't meaningful, as there's one less reason to be emotionally engaged with your character.

If there's nothing to risk, there's no real contest, and if there's no real contest, there's no real game. Why bother playing?





Bolded what I am replying to. As an 11 year (nearly) vet with 130m sp's I can tell you that people forget to upgrade all the damn time. ESP if you are in say wh space for months and have no reason to go to empire. Recently one of my alts who is mearly my hauler alt, crossed the threshold that her clone was upgraded to, and because I have not docked her in a station for months, I never bothered to check. Well she had gone over by a million or so sp's, and then I got jumped in a wh while moving fuel. I lost my 300m isk of fuel, my 100m isk blocadge runner (got caught on a can and could not cloak in time) then lost my 20m isk pod. So I lost arounf 500m isk. Fine, np, but the kicker was I also lost frighters 5. So now I have to spend another 60 days recruing the sp's I lost... all because there was no way to upgrade a clone in W space, and no easy identify to tell if I have to change my clone. Esp as I had a long skill set and did not bother to check the sp levels. Yes it was my fault, but yes highly annoying.

In addition, my main (me) clone is a 40m isk clone. This means I do not want to fly anything under that threshold. Hell I have issues even flying my prospect because my pod is worth more then the ship.


Risk v. reward. You dont seem to care about the isk lost - mostly like because you have sufficent isk as a vet and wh dweller to absorb the loss. Oth the pod loss and clone cost hurt. Therefore the isk was not a "real" risk for you but the clone costs were. Removal of the clone costs nerfs the death penalty and makes pvp essentially riskless for vets in a run of the mill sub cap ship.

I don't play, I just fourm warrior.