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Warfare & Tactics

 
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HS pos defense setup...thoughts?

Author
Lil' Brudder Too
Pistols for Pandas
#1 - 2014-11-05 20:13:49 UTC
I would post this in the S&I, but seeing as the need to defend a POS comes through "warfare" and uses 'tactics', i figured this was the best place.

I am considering doing a HS indy pos, that can be switched over to murder-death-kill mode incase of WAR (though atm the two modes would not be too dissimilar.

Here is my build

I know that any really large group that nothing is really 'safe' even in HS. I just want to gauge how effective this setup would be at deterring dec's aimed at my POS.

Keep in mind, i have bashed my share of HS POS's, so i know what types of things turn me away from a bash, and used that to help inform my build.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#2 - 2014-11-05 22:54:52 UTC

12 webs and 12 scrams is very excessive. I'd stick with 4-6x webs, 2-3x scrams, and 2-3x disruptors. It is a good idea to have more anchored, I just wouldn't online them until the hostiles incap the modules already online.

4x Neuts are good to have.... when your POS is being shot by a few sieged dreads. Capacitor warfare is very important to have when taking out sieged or triaged opponents. However, in highsec, capitals can't be used to shoot your POS, so the Powergrid for these weapons is much better spent elsewhere. Realize that your enemies will use logistics to keep their ships alive, and POS ECM modules are already effective at disabling those (when manned).

25% resists is too low for a highsec POS. Whomever is attacking your POS has to rely on subcap dps, which outputs 1/10th the dps of your average dread. Make this worse for them!!! Take the power grid required for those Neuts and put on hardeners allowing you to fit 7 more hardeners to boost your EHP by 40m hitpoints. This will almost doubling the time required to RF your POS.

Pulses vs Beam Lasers. To be honest, I lean more towards Beam's than the Pulse Lasers. Pulse laser's have a very short range, allowing an opponent to strategically position to negate much of its DPS. I haven't thoroughly tested this out, buy my hunch is that, while pulse lasers do more damage, in most cases beams will apply their damage more effectively.
Lil' Brudder Too
Pistols for Pandas
#3 - 2014-11-06 01:42:45 UTC
Quote:

12 webs and 12 scrams is very excessive.

Yes and no....a common troll tactic in HS is to use fast drone ships to out-track guns. 12 webs/scrams says "no" to that. Witht he nature of POS targeting, it is nice to make sure the guy getting shot is also the guy getting scrammed. As one cannot guarantee that they will always be able to man their POS guns.

Quote:
4x Neuts are good to have.... when your POS is being shot by a few sieged dreads. Capacitor warfare is very important to have when taking out sieged or triaged opponents. However, in highsec, capitals can't be used to shoot your POS, so the Powergrid for these weapons is much better spent elsewhere. Realize that your enemies will use logistics to keep their ships alive, and POS ECM modules are already effective at disabling those (when manned).

Umm, you haven't seen that fancy new module called "Bastion" have you? Turns Marauders into mini-dreads that are immune to all forms of e-war....except neuts.

Quote:
25% resists is too low for a highsec POS. Whomever is attacking your POS has to rely on subcap dps, which outputs 1/10th the dps of your average dread. Make this worse for them!!! Take the power grid required for those Neuts and put on hardeners allowing you to fit 7 more hardeners to boost your EHP by 40m hitpoints. This will almost doubling the time required to RF your POS.

Actually, bringing the resists up to ~44% only adds 13m more EHP than leaving it at 25%. I'm not sure the trade-off of being very vulnerable to Marauders is worth that little bit. IMHO. But i'll try to work 3 more hardeners in by other means.
Quote:
Pulses vs Beam Lasers. To be honest, I lean more towards Beam's than the Pulse Lasers. Pulse laser's have a very short range, allowing an opponent to strategically position to negate much of its DPS. I haven't thoroughly tested this out, buy my hunch is that, while pulse lasers do more damage, in most cases beams will apply their damage more effectively.

Yes, but as i've discovered by doing bashes, it is VERY easy to mitigate the dmg from the 'long-range' versions by even moving just a little bit. If i someone wants to shoot me from 100k+ to avoid my guns, while doing abysmal dps themselves...fine. Besides, even Disruptors only hold out to 150k, so doing dmg any further than that is pointless as they can just run away if they had trouble.

Here is my second version
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#4 - 2014-11-06 19:13:45 UTC

The two extremes are dickstar or death star:

Dickstar:
I first make the POS a PITA to kill by uniformly increasing my resists above 55%. This will give the POS a massive amount of EHP, which takes a long time to take down (It would take several hours for ten 1k dps ships to RF it). This, by itself, is enough to deter most corps.

Add in ECM, and it becomes a larger PITA for subcaps to deal with. Admittedly, drone ships and marauders can sit there and whittle away at the POS, but it will take up quite a bit of their time to do so.

Example Dickstar

For Dickstars, weapons are generally icing on the cake, needing only enough to make self tanking difficult.

Deathstar:
Have lots and lots of guns. Ideally, you'll have enough guns to quickly destroy anyone that lands on grid with the POS. This will force the enemy to have logistics ships to support their fleet. More logi == less dps.

Your second attempt is a decent middle ground.

I personally have different fitting priorities.

I personally prefer Minmatar towers because projectile damage types can be mixed up a bit.

I also rarely have neuts online, but usually I have a few ominously anchored. IMO, it is only effective (i.e. worth the PG requirements) in niche situations.

Short range weapons often have too low an optimal range to be effective on a large POS. Batteries on opposite sides of the POS are about 60 km's apart. A medium Pulse Laser battery has 80 * 1.5 = 120 km's Optimal range which is excellent unless you put in Multifreq crystals, because that will reduce the range down to 60 km's. IMO, POS guns are not actually for defense, but simply a deterrent stamp.

You mentioned using fast drone ships to out-track guns. I've used drone ships to sit at 150 km's and snipe down amarr POS's batteries in total safety because pulse lasers simply don't shoot far enough, and the few that did were easily tanked using EM/Therm specific tanks.

POS offensive batteries will NOT truly defend your POS.
♦ If your opponents have more than 10 pilots they are attacking you with, it doesn't matter what you have on your POS, they can outsmart the randomly switching AI. You then NEED to have POS gunners to make any headway. I go with a Dickstar at first to slow them down so I can show up to the fight, and then online extra guns and EWAR batteries to counter what is on field.
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
Crouching Woman Hidden Cucumber
#5 - 2014-11-06 21:54:48 UTC
>Ask for help with something.

Someone who knows better gives advice.

>Tell them they are wrong.


Never change Eve forums.
Justin Zaine
#6 - 2014-11-16 05:17:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Justin Zaine
Gonna play devil's advocate here:

KISS and just don't fit any offensive mods. Best defense in HS is being able to GTFO.

A tower's defense is only as good as the fleet supporting it, and If someone wants your tower down, it's coming down regardless of what you fit to it because a 4 man corp such as yours will never be able to field a large or strong enough fleet to deter any serious bashing fleets...Unless they're noobs and don't know what they're doing, but I can't say I've seen too many noobs attacking towers lately.

He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight.

He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared.

Carlatto
Black Wolf Syndicate
#7 - 2014-11-17 19:00:58 UTC
Dickstar....that is all.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#8 - 2014-11-17 20:38:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Bronson Hughes
1. You do not have nearly enough shield hardeners. Not by half. There are ways to bypass/counter pretty much any POS defense, but you can never bypass resists. Long shield grinds are a surprisingly effective deterrent.

2. I'd consider splitting your scrams between scrams and disruptors. Not only will you want to be able to tackle beyond 75km in case you are beset by snipers, your previously stated concerns about shutting down the MWDs of ships trying to speed tank your guns doesn't really apply to MWDs. Generally speaking, the only ships that can effectively speed tank with an MWD are 'ceptors; the signature bloom on everything else makes them easier to track thus negating the speed. Not to mention, if ships have their MWDs running and are heavily webbed, they are slow with a huge sig, making them far easier to hit.

3. I'd focus less on tackle. Your concern about small afterburning ships speed tanking your guns is valid, but if you are manning your defenses, 1-2 webs online at any given time can slow down targets enough to hit. If you're not manning your defenses having more won't necessarily help unless they all happen to align.

4. Use more faction weapon batteries. Even the lower tier faction turret batteries get a huge advantage: their signature resolution is one class lower than non-faction turrets. That means that a Blood Small Pulse Laser Battery will have a signature resolution of 40m instead of 125m. That is a huge increase in damage application to all targets, especially smaller ones.

5. Drop the pulse lasers for autocannon batteries. Starbase projectile batteries are currently equal to or better than all other (EDIT: short range) starbase weapon batteries even after taking the racial tower bonuses into account. Unbonused autocannon batteries are better in every regard than bonused pulse laser batteries. Better damage, better range, better tracking, and selectable damage types. The difference between bonused beam laser batteries and unbonused arty batteries is less clear-cut, but look at the numbers and consider arties is appropriate. (And by "look at the numbers", I don't just mean the DPS reported by the IGB POS planner. Look at range, tracking, damage types, etc.) Needless to say, this gives you some idea of just how powerful projectile batteries on a Minmatar tower are. Shocked

Good luck.



EDIT: My post was made looking at your first build, not your second. I think most of my advice still stands, although maybe not as strongly.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs

Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#9 - 2014-11-17 20:47:24 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Short range weapons often have too low an optimal range to be effective on a large POS. Batteries on opposite sides of the POS are about 60 km's apart. A medium Pulse Laser battery has 80 * 1.5 = 120 km's Optimal range which is excellent unless you put in Multifreq crystals, because that will reduce the range down to 60 km's. IMO, POS guns are not actually for defense, but simply a deterrent stamp.

The ranges used for all starbase weapon, tackle, and EWAR batteries is measured from the control tower, not the module. So, if you're 60km from the tower, you're within the optimal of all medium pulse laser batteries fit with MF crystals, even if some of them on the opposite side of the POS are 90km from you.

The only time the actual position of the modules is used is when you are shooting them.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#10 - 2014-11-17 20:52:53 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Short range weapons often have too low an optimal range to be effective on a large POS. Batteries on opposite sides of the POS are about 60 km's apart. A medium Pulse Laser battery has 80 * 1.5 = 120 km's Optimal range which is excellent unless you put in Multifreq crystals, because that will reduce the range down to 60 km's. IMO, POS guns are not actually for defense, but simply a deterrent stamp.

The ranges used for all starbase weapon, tackle, and EWAR batteries is measured from the control tower, not the module. So, if you're 60km from the tower, you're within the optimal of all medium pulse laser batteries fit with MF crystals, even if some of them on the opposite side of the POS are 90km from you.

The only time the actual position of the modules is used is when you are shooting them.


I could be wrong, but I'm about 95% certain that:

The weapon ACTIVATION range is from the tower.
The weapon optimal range and falloff is from the module itself.

Do a forum search, and you'll find people that have tested this and reported the same thing as I proclaim. I haven't tested it myself, which is why I'm not 100% certain.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#11 - 2014-11-17 21:06:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Bronson Hughes
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
I could be wrong, but I'm about 95% certain that:

The weapon ACTIVATION range is from the tower.
The weapon optimal range and falloff is from the module itself.

Do a forum search, and you'll find people that have tested this and reported the same thing as I proclaim. I haven't tested it myself, which is why I'm not 100% certain.

I have tested it myself in an afterburning stealth bomber and a small hostile POS. I calculated based on the stats of the batteries deployed that I had enough of a speed/sig ratio to speed tank the small, non-faction autocannon batteries defending the POS at a range of 25km or less. If the ranges the weapon batteries used were measured from the modules and not the tower, the batteries on the far side of the POS, which were ~37km away, should have been doing enough damage to drive me off, yet I orbited that POS at ~17km for hours while taking almost negligible damage.

The OP is rightly justified in being concerned about small, fast ships speed tanking their guns.

EDIT: This test was done within the last six months, so it is only representative of POS mechanics now. They may have been different in the past, and they may be different with the upcoming POS changes.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs

Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#12 - 2014-11-19 03:46:58 UTC
The best way to defend a POS is to crash the node.

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide

Arlennna
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2014-11-20 01:32:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Arlennna
Lil' Brudder Too wrote:

Here is my build


This pos has no non-military modules. What's the point of it?

Assuming you use it for something else, you will need to on- and offline structures, so you might as well put more defenses than you have grid for and online them as they get destroyed. You do have a POS gunner, right? If not, forget it. Use a small tower with nothing and take it down if you're decced. All that stuff is much less effective without a POS gunner.

POS guns are 1 size up so your large guns are intended to shoot capitals. There are no capitals in high sec. Get rid of your large guns. Replace them with a larger number of small or medium guns. Small POS batteries are cruiser weapons and medium POS batteries are BS weapons.

You don't actually have many guns. Think hard about whether or not a BS could just tank you.
Crimson Draufgange
The Seven Shadows
#14 - 2014-11-20 04:30:46 UTC
An all out ECM EWAR POS tends to **** people off to the point that they don't even bother. Best used with Caldari starbases (so I hear), even though the best indie POS would be minmatar. If you really want a minmatar POS, I'd suggest going with with arty turrets, webs, and scrams. If you can fit them, maybe a few auto cannon turrets for good measure.

My Velator is overpowered.

"I use my hairgel to tackle my targets because it has a long lasting firm hold." - Me.