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Are Skiffs overpowered ? Discuss.......
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CODE Agent AC
The Conference Elite
The Conference
#61 - 2014-11-17 20:29:15 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Jur Tissant wrote:
Are you suggesting that you should be able to suicide gank a Skiff with a single destroyer/cruiser? The Skiff should be a tough nut for small ships to crack even in low/null. It should be nigh impossible to beat with anything short of a gank-fit BC/BS in high-sec. That's the whole point - safety at the expense of a respectable price tag and mining yield.

If you want to take down a Skiff, bring a bunch of friends.


If it's untanked yes, the rest of your post shows you don't know much about ganking at all.


Plus if tanked, I generally like to hit up that Orca that is ALWAYS right next to it first.

The Artist Formerly Known As AC. 

The terminal end of the digestive system. 

The Best CSM Candidate
Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2014-11-17 20:32:15 UTC
Jur Tissant wrote:
Are you suggesting that you should be able to suicide gank a Skiff with a single destroyer/cruiser? The Skiff should be a tough nut for small ships to crack even in low/null. It should be nigh impossible to beat with anything short of a gank-fit BC/BS in high-sec. That's the whole point - safety at the expense of a respectable price tag and mining yield.

If you want to take down a Skiff, bring a bunch of friends.
You would need several battlships to gank a well tanked skiff actually.

But the problem many have with the SKiff, including me, is not it's tank, but the fact that it is on par with the mack yield wise. And on top of that it get's drone damage bonus, speed and a smal sig radius. From a miners standpoint, it's not a good ship, it's the best ffíng mining vessel ever in EVE, by far. It's simply not balanced in any way.

Slash it's yield I say, they can have their awesome tank as long as it has an awesome drawback too, and that should be the yield imho. It has to be low enough to entice ppl to go for a (tanked) mackinaw or even a hulk.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#63 - 2014-11-17 20:38:27 UTC
How many Catalysts to kill a Skiff, looking at the Goon gank fit, 559 DPS.

A well tanked Skiff has 95k EHP and has a sustained tank of around 166 DPS, but taking that into account in a 0.5 system that is 19 seconds until Concord arrives and perhaps another 5 seconds of ability to fire so 24 seconds, so each Catalyst does 13,416 DPS before blowing up in perfect conditions so say 12,500 average based on less perfect hits, the skiff orbiting, so 7 to 8 Catalysts are needed to kill a well tanked Skiff.

Seriously that is easy enough for you well organised gankers isn't it? Stop whining, its sad...



When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2014-11-17 20:38:53 UTC
The Mack and skiff need their yields cut.

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La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2014-11-17 20:40:25 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
How many Catalysts to kill a Skiff, looking at the Goon gank fit, 559 DPS.

A well tanked Skiff has 95k EHP and has a sustained tank of around 166 DPS, but taking that into account in a 0.5 system that is 19 seconds until Concord arrives and perhaps another 5 seconds of ability to fire so 24 seconds, so each Catalyst does 13,416 DPS before blowing up in perfect conditions so say 12,500 average based on less perfect hits, the skiff orbiting, so 7 to 8 Catalysts are needed to kill a well tanked Skiff.

Seriously that is easy enough for you well organised gankers isn't it? Stop whining, its sad...





Like all things in eve it's okay for us rotund folks but the "little guy" gets screwed and your numbers are wrong.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#66 - 2014-11-17 20:43:17 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
How many Catalysts to kill a Skiff, looking at the Goon gank fit, 559 DPS.

A well tanked Skiff has 95k EHP and has a sustained tank of around 166 DPS, but taking that into account in a 0.5 system that is 19 seconds until Concord arrives and perhaps another 5 seconds of ability to fire so 24 seconds, so each Catalyst does 13,416 DPS before blowing up in perfect conditions so say 12,500 average based on less perfect hits, the skiff orbiting, so 7 to 8 Catalysts are needed to kill a well tanked Skiff.

Seriously that is easy enough for you well organised gankers isn't it? Stop whining, its sad...



Like all things in eve it's okay for us rotund folks but the "little guy" gets screwed and your numbers are wrong.


The little guy is the solo miner, not the majority of gankers.

So where exactly are my numbers incorrect?

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#67 - 2014-11-17 20:44:35 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
The Mack and skiff need their yields cut.


No they don't...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2014-11-17 20:47:51 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
How many Catalysts to kill a Skiff, looking at the Goon gank fit, 559 DPS.

A well tanked Skiff has 95k EHP and has a sustained tank of around 166 DPS, but taking that into account in a 0.5 system that is 19 seconds until Concord arrives and perhaps another 5 seconds of ability to fire so 24 seconds, so each Catalyst does 13,416 DPS before blowing up in perfect conditions so say 12,500 average based on less perfect hits, the skiff orbiting, so 7 to 8 Catalysts are needed to kill a well tanked Skiff.

Seriously that is easy enough for you well organised gankers isn't it? Stop whining, its sad...




Except for the fact that any well tanked Skiff has 140K-ish effective hitpoints against Void/antimatter. Before any fleet boosting bonusses. Roll

And again: it's not the tank that is making it overpowered, it's the fact that it has awesome tank, some other rather spiffing attributes and not a single drawback. On par with the Mack yield wise, ore bay still large enough to have 5+ cycles of your miners before it fills up so it's still (semi)-AFK-able. I got a feeling I'll be sounding like a broken record repeating this b4 the thread is over...

As for well organised gankers: groups that have the ability to gank targets with that kind of EHP will go for more valueable targets, as someone stated b4: in a mining group of skiffs with an orca, it will be the Orca receiving the brunt of the attention since it is more valueable.
Tengu Grib
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#69 - 2014-11-17 20:48:49 UTC
Jur Tissant wrote:
Are you suggesting that you should be able to suicide gank a Skiff with a single destroyer/cruiser? The Skiff should be a tough nut for small ships to crack even in low/null. It should be nigh impossible to beat with anything short of a gank-fit BC/BS in high-sec. That's the whole point - safety at the expense of a respectable price tag and mining yield.

If you want to take down a Skiff, bring a bunch of friends.


Even with LITERALLY ZERO modules on it, it has 35k ehp with max skills. That means even with the complete opposite of a tank you can't solo it.

I'm just clearing things up. I disagree with your statement here, but I do not believe the Skiff is overpowered (though it is very strong).

Rabble Rabble Rabble

Praise James, Supreme Protector of High Sec.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2014-11-17 20:49:07 UTC
Meilandra Vanderganken wrote:
Jur Tissant wrote:
Are you suggesting that you should be able to suicide gank a Skiff with a single destroyer/cruiser? The Skiff should be a tough nut for small ships to crack even in low/null. It should be nigh impossible to beat with anything short of a gank-fit BC/BS in high-sec. That's the whole point - safety at the expense of a respectable price tag and mining yield.

If you want to take down a Skiff, bring a bunch of friends.
You would need several battlships to gank a well tanked skiff actually.

But the problem many have with the SKiff, including me, is not it's tank, but the fact that it is on par with the mack yield wise. And on top of that it get's drone damage bonus, speed and a smal sig radius. From a miners standpoint, it's not a good ship, it's the best ffíng mining vessel ever in EVE, by far. It's simply not balanced in any way.

Slash it's yield I say, they can have their awesome tank as long as it has an awesome drawback too, and that should be the yield imho. It has to be low enough to entice ppl to go for a (tanked) mackinaw or even a hulk.


Now see that's an argument that makes sense. The whole point IIRC in the mining ship rebalance was to give each ship a purpose, so there was no single "I Win" miner (aka previously the Hulk). If all they did was change the I WIN miner to something else then everything they did was a waste of time.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2014-11-17 20:49:12 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
How many Catalysts to kill a Skiff, looking at the Goon gank fit, 559 DPS.

A well tanked Skiff has 95k EHP and has a sustained tank of around 166 DPS, but taking that into account in a 0.5 system that is 19 seconds until Concord arrives and perhaps another 5 seconds of ability to fire so 24 seconds, so each Catalyst does 13,416 DPS before blowing up in perfect conditions so say 12,500 average based on less perfect hits, the skiff orbiting, so 7 to 8 Catalysts are needed to kill a well tanked Skiff.

Seriously that is easy enough for you well organised gankers isn't it? Stop whining, its sad...



Like all things in eve it's okay for us rotund folks but the "little guy" gets screwed and your numbers are wrong.


The little guy is the solo miner, not the majority of gankers.

So where exactly are my numbers incorrect?


They are incorrect everywhere. The little guy is also the solo ganker, small RL friend only pirate corporation and the fresh newbie "I saw this game and it said I can be he bad guy" corporation. Are you suggesting that one group of players is more important than another group?

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2014-11-17 20:50:06 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Meilandra Vanderganken wrote:
Jur Tissant wrote:
Are you suggesting that you should be able to suicide gank a Skiff with a single destroyer/cruiser? The Skiff should be a tough nut for small ships to crack even in low/null. It should be nigh impossible to beat with anything short of a gank-fit BC/BS in high-sec. That's the whole point - safety at the expense of a respectable price tag and mining yield.

If you want to take down a Skiff, bring a bunch of friends.
You would need several battlships to gank a well tanked skiff actually.

But the problem many have with the SKiff, including me, is not it's tank, but the fact that it is on par with the mack yield wise. And on top of that it get's drone damage bonus, speed and a smal sig radius. From a miners standpoint, it's not a good ship, it's the best ffíng mining vessel ever in EVE, by far. It's simply not balanced in any way.

Slash it's yield I say, they can have their awesome tank as long as it has an awesome drawback too, and that should be the yield imho. It has to be low enough to entice ppl to go for a (tanked) mackinaw or even a hulk.


Now see that's an argument that makes sense. The whole point IIRC in the mining ship rebalance was to give each ship a purpose, so there was no single "I Win" miner (aka previously the Hulk). If all they did was change the I WIN miner to something else then everything they did was a waste of time.


Which is what they did the mackinaw is the dominant mining vessel.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#73 - 2014-11-17 21:01:02 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
How many Catalysts to kill a Skiff, looking at the Goon gank fit, 559 DPS.

A well tanked Skiff has 95k EHP and has a sustained tank of around 166 DPS, but taking that into account in a 0.5 system that is 19 seconds until Concord arrives and perhaps another 5 seconds of ability to fire so 24 seconds, so each Catalyst does 13,416 DPS before blowing up in perfect conditions so say 12,500 average based on less perfect hits, the skiff orbiting, so 7 to 8 Catalysts are needed to kill a well tanked Skiff.

Seriously that is easy enough for you well organised gankers isn't it? Stop whining, its sad...



Like all things in eve it's okay for us rotund folks but the "little guy" gets screwed and your numbers are wrong.


The little guy is the solo miner, not the majority of gankers.

So where exactly are my numbers incorrect?


They are incorrect everywhere. The little guy is also the solo ganker, small RL friend only pirate corporation and the fresh newbie "I saw this game and it said I can be he bad guy" corporation. Are you suggesting that one group of players is more important than another group?


If you want to be a bad guy solo ganker then gank a Venture or a Covertor, or a Hulk, that's easy enough, are you saying that one group of players is more important than another group???

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2014-11-17 21:02:47 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:


Now see that's an argument that makes sense. The whole point IIRC in the mining ship rebalance was to give each ship a purpose, so there was no single "I Win" miner (aka previously the Hulk). If all they did was change the I WIN miner to something else then everything they did was a waste of time.

That is basicly what the Skiff is imho. It's not just some FotM ship, it is like I stated a 'get out of gank free'-card while still being a great miner. I started my EVE career as a raging mining carebear and if I would still be one now I'd be completely overjoyed with the Skiff and proclaim it the greatest barge evah and never ever fly anything else again.

Back in my mining days there was at least reason to swap out your ship for something diff. Hulk for ore, mack for ice, Skiff for mercoxit. I'm not saying we should revert back to those mechanics but CCP needs to do some more balancing to make other mining vessels viable too. With the route they chose, that is gonna be hard, since they will have to be balancing on a tipping point.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#75 - 2014-11-17 21:12:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Meilandra Vanderganken wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
How many Catalysts to kill a Skiff, looking at the Goon gank fit, 559 DPS.

A well tanked Skiff has 95k EHP and has a sustained tank of around 166 DPS, but taking that into account in a 0.5 system that is 19 seconds until Concord arrives and perhaps another 5 seconds of ability to fire so 24 seconds, so each Catalyst does 13,416 DPS before blowing up in perfect conditions so say 12,500 average based on less perfect hits, the skiff orbiting, so 7 to 8 Catalysts are needed to kill a well tanked Skiff.

Seriously that is easy enough for you well organised gankers isn't it? Stop whining, its sad...


Except for the fact that any well tanked Skiff has 140K-ish effective hitpoints against Void/antimatter. Before any fleet boosting bonusses. Roll

And again: it's not the tank that is making it overpowered, it's the fact that it has awesome tank, some other rather spiffing attributes and not a single drawback. On par with the Mack yield wise, ore bay still large enough to have 5+ cycles of your miners before it fills up so it's still (semi)-AFK-able. I got a feeling I'll be sounding like a broken record repeating this b4 the thread is over...

As for well organised gankers: groups that have the ability to gank targets with that kind of EHP will go for more valueable targets, as someone stated b4: in a mining group of skiffs with an orca, it will be the Orca receiving the brunt of the attention since it is more valueable.


140k is of course based on fitting for anti-matter or void, however in doing so you can be ganked by Thrashers instead using EMP, so its slighly better to hedge your bets in my opinion, that being said the fit I have in mind has 125k against Thermal, so point taken, that would be 10 Catalysts, again not a huge issue for the very well set up ganking groups.

For years I had to sit in a mining ship with the tank of a wet paper bag and for years when we complained about it we were called whiners etc., well I am laughing at the whining here, its wonderful.

Perhaps they should buff the yield of the Hulk and Mackinaw a bit, personally I don't give a rats ass about yield, for me its the tank that matters. And the ore bay is not that great for solo runners, you have to dock a lot, but that is the price you pay, also fitting for tank you end up missing cycles as you mine rocks without much in due to not fitting a mining scanner, but its worth it in my view, after all tank rather than gank.

Now please go gank the Orca,s but the Skiff is just a bit of payback for the utter rubbish tank we had for years and years and years, the best tank ship in the past could be killed by a single Catalyst and the piot podded too, it was crass stupid and drove a lot of people out of the game.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#76 - 2014-11-17 21:26:50 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:

Now please go gank the Orca,s but the Skiff is just a bit of payback for the utter rubbish tank we had for years and years and years, the best tank ship in the past could be killed by a single Catalyst and the piot podded too, it was crass stupid and drove a lot of people out of the game.


Citation needed.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#77 - 2014-11-17 21:29:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:

Now please go gank the Orca,s but the Skiff is just a bit of payback for the utter rubbish tank we had for years and years and years, the best tank ship in the past could be killed by a single Catalyst and the piot podded too, it was crass stupid and drove a lot of people out of the game.


Citation needed.


Citation there if you look back on old kills, loads of them, loads and loads of them, and in any case I am not allowed to link kills here!

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#78 - 2014-11-17 21:31:34 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:

Now please go gank the Orca,s but the Skiff is just a bit of payback for the utter rubbish tank we had for years and years and years, the best tank ship in the past could be killed by a single Catalyst and the piot podded too, it was crass stupid and drove a lot of people out of the game.


Citation needed.


Citation there if you look back on old kills, loads of them, loads and loads of them


No, I meant about your "the thing I don't like is killing the game!" statement.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Tengu Grib
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#79 - 2014-11-17 21:32:44 UTC
He wasn't referring to the kills, but the claim that loads and loads of people quit the game because of it.

Rabble Rabble Rabble

Praise James, Supreme Protector of High Sec.
Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#80 - 2014-11-17 21:37:22 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:


140k is of course based on fitting for anti-matter or void, however in doing so you can be ganked by Thrashers instead using EMP, so its slighly better to hedge your bets in my opinion, that being said the fit I have in mind has 125k against Thermal, so point taken, that would be 10 Catalysts, again not a huge issue for the very well set up ganking groups.

For years I had to sit in a mining ship with the tank of a wet paper bag and for years when we complained about it we were called whiners etc., well I am laughing at the whining here, its wonderful.

Perhaps they should buff the yield of the Hulk and Mackinaw a bit, personally I don't give a rats ass about yield, for me its the tank that matters. And the ore bay is not that great for solo runners, you have to dock a lot, but that is the price you pay, also fitting for tank you end up missing cycles as you mine rocks without much in due to not fitting a mining scanner, but its worth it in my view, after all tank rather than gank.

Now please go gank the Orca,s but the Skiff is just a bit of payback for the utter rubbish tank we had for years and years and years, the best tank ship in the past could be killed by a single Catalyst and the piot podded too, it was crass stupid and drove a lot of people out of the game.

Thrashers are great for cheap alfa ganking but they lack fast firing guns, that's kinda important if you only have around 20 seconds b4 being jammed by CONCORD, I think you should be able to get of 3 volleys in 0.5 but only 2 in anything higher. Not a trasher specialist (yet) though so I could be off.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the Skiff and procurer sported a pretty decent tank back then too? Not the insane ammount of hitpoints they have today but still decent. Can't remember how good hulks and macks were back then tank wise but I do remember that most ppl (like almost everybody) ANTI-tanked them with cargo rigs and extenders and then complained about wet paper bag tanks. Roll

"Buffing yield a bit" is not going to cut it either I think, it needs to be really significant. For it to make ppl consider other ships than the Skiff the yield difference needs to be big enough to compensate for the fact that you will be losing you ship more often. Even back in my mining days, I did not mine more than 2 hours a day on average I guess, based on those numbers, the yield difference should be very high to make ppl worth considering anything but the Skiff.

By saying that you see the Skiff as 'payback' I kinda get the feeling that you do agree that it is maybe a bit TOO good. Lol