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[Dev Blog] Phoebe Travel Change Update

First post
Author
Beaute Suprenate
Zervas Aeronautics
The Bastion
#141 - 2014-11-01 07:39:04 UTC
OldWolf69 wrote:
Milla Goodpussy wrote:
Beaute Suprenate wrote:
Two things to state...
First, this will sell more account and generate more CCP income. If you station a cap pilot at the end of each jump, like a cyno alt, you jump on without penalty. Hard to do but makes sense. Most of the old players are fully cap trained. So CCP fixes it so they all need more cap pilots. If you need more cyno pilots, you need more alts, and thus more accounts. Voila, more income for CCP.

Second, who was complaining about the force projection? The people with all sov. Who's on the council? The people with the most votes, the biggest Alliances. And what did they get? Exactly what they want. A frozen sov. What they have now, they will have forever. This is the day that all big sov freezes. Goons keep what they have, NA keeps what they have, NC keeps what they have, etc. Localized fights over the scraps that are left. No big movement, no big battles, no server TIDI, CCP doesn't have to worry about 2000 users in one system with 100k drones. No more investment in more powerful servers. The major players got exactly what they wanted.

And the sandbox got nerfed.



its bullcrap to have dudes hot drop super's on a friggin miner or a single ratter.. that's why it needed to be shut down.. blame the dudes that did it.. go look at killboards and you'll see the group who's known for it.

...and you think making Null a cage will resolve this? EVERYONE wants to take advantage of toys, no matter how l33t they want to pose, and with minimum risk. You simply cannot solve this.
As i said: all what this game needed is the ability to lock. ....errr, wait. Force people to fight? Blasphemous...LolLolLol


There was nothing to resolve. The big alliances just get to keep all their sov. No more big wars, no more Cap Replacement Funding. Now they will just eat a little at the edges taking away the sov of ALL the little guys until there are three or four left.
Nevayuh
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#142 - 2014-11-01 10:10:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevayuh
Welcome to 'Blue Doughnut' land guys.

As we have seen in the past couple of weeks all the large Alliances have set about the predicted re-positioning exercise leaving large areas of EVE unclaimed and unwanted by anyone but a few ratters, Way to go CCP.

Not the slightest bit bothered by the force projection nerf, long overdue, But think back, it only became possible because of CCP's crappy mechanics in the first place so in the 'VIEW OF MOST' note the lack of Alliance or Corporation attachment there. reducing the capabilities of Capital Combat ships to move easily around EVE is a good thing, lot of pissed off players mind you who now find that months of training is for nothing.

Rorquals, WTF are you guys smoking, apart from a few players that use them in ways they were never designed for, again CCP's crappy foresight, it makes no difference if they have 20% or a 1000% Drone bonus, Combat is not an option, bought for mining operations they spend almost 100% of there time in a PoS and rarely move if ever and those that do for PoS installations have little or no need for any Drone bonus, hostiles in system, they wait them out or get fleet coverage for the duration, What hurts here is the very idea that anyone would want to use this ship in Combat at all or even put it at risk.

Logistics ships, = Jump Freighters, Sorry CCP, if you believe that anyone is going to start moving these via gates just because you think it's a good idea to allow the chance of some desperate PvP player to get at them you really don't have much of a grasp on how risk averse these pilots really are, the results of this Nerf are not going to be what you expect, Players will of course adjust, right up until the point they realize how much of a problem this is going to be then simply stop using them, or rather stop using those accounts, we have guys already selling them now while they can still move them out.

Nerfing logistics transport in anyway flies directly in the face of your stated aims of expanding Null Sec usage, logistics is what makes it possible, logistics is what makes it practical, take that away and you will not get what you either want or expect.
kiu Nakamura
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#143 - 2014-11-01 10:36:15 UTC
Greygal wrote:
kiu Nakamura wrote:

4) Shameless plug
Checkout http://fatigue.501gu.de it should be matching the latest devblog.


Very nifty little tool! Can you change "something else" label to "capitals" so it's more obvious that's where to go for capitals? :)


I get your point, but its difficult. "Capitals" would include industrial capitals which would be wrong in this case, and also sub-capitals are matched by this option (getting bridged or using a jumpbridge). Suggestions?
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#144 - 2014-11-01 19:08:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Omniblivion
Greyscale- not that you're actually still looking at this, but consider the below:

What is the point of a 5ly max range on a rorq (4 minute wait between jumps) yet a cyno lasts for 10 minutes? That means unless the rorq has multiple cyno pilots every 5 ly, the rorq is still going to have to sit and wait at least 10 minutes to move- which would be roughly the same if it had a 10ly max range. This combination is very poorly thought out and will only hurt and frustrate the playerbase that use Rorqs. Especially considering you're keeping a hardly used feature on the Rorq in the place of the feature that most Rorq users want.
Findell Ronuken
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#145 - 2014-11-01 21:16:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Findell Ronuken
Yes clearly this game needs to make travel take longer, to make sov even more worthless and to devalue skill points earned by players all great things for the future of this game.

I hope this change ruins capitals so everyone will quit this stupid ******* game.
JetCord
FUITA
#146 - 2014-11-02 01:43:51 UTC
Welcome to Generic OnlineTMsoon - where all the ships classes jump range is the same no matter the size.

i dont mind limiting the titan and supercarrier jump range but making all of them uniform ?
OldWolf69
Militaris Industries
Northern Coalition.
#147 - 2014-11-02 06:32:34 UTC
Beaute Suprenate wrote:
OldWolf69 wrote:
Milla Goodpussy wrote:
Beaute Suprenate wrote:
Two things to state...
First, this will sell more account and generate more CCP income. If you station a cap pilot at the end of each jump, like a cyno alt, you jump on without penalty. Hard to do but makes sense. Most of the old players are fully cap trained. So CCP fixes it so they all need more cap pilots. If you need more cyno pilots, you need more alts, and thus more accounts. Voila, more income for CCP.

Second, who was complaining about the force projection? The people with all sov. Who's on the council? The people with the most votes, the biggest Alliances. And what did they get? Exactly what they want. A frozen sov. What they have now, they will have forever. This is the day that all big sov freezes. Goons keep what they have, NA keeps what they have, NC keeps what they have, etc. Localized fights over the scraps that are left. No big movement, no big battles, no server TIDI, CCP doesn't have to worry about 2000 users in one system with 100k drones. No more investment in more powerful servers. The major players got exactly what they wanted.

And the sandbox got nerfed.



its bullcrap to have dudes hot drop super's on a friggin miner or a single ratter.. that's why it needed to be shut down.. blame the dudes that did it.. go look at killboards and you'll see the group who's known for it.

...and you think making Null a cage will resolve this? EVERYONE wants to take advantage of toys, no matter how l33t they want to pose, and with minimum risk. You simply cannot solve this.
As i said: all what this game needed is the ability to lock. ....errr, wait. Force people to fight? Blasphemous...LolLolLol


There was nothing to resolve. The big alliances just get to keep all their sov. No more big wars, no more Cap Replacement Funding. Now they will just eat a little at the edges taking away the sov of ALL the little guys until there are three or four left.

If there was nothing to resolve. Why all this?LolLolLol
Dalilus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#148 - 2014-11-02 19:19:08 UTC
LOL!! Everyone using their cap ships before the nerf hits.....Big smile
Momma Yeti
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#149 - 2014-11-03 23:29:45 UTC
And CCP wonders why new players trying out EVE for the first time shy away from this game....

*sigh*




Vasili Zaitsez
HIgh Sec Care Bears
Brothers of Tangra
#150 - 2014-11-04 00:49:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Vasili Zaitsez
With less than a year into this game I may be bringing a novice if not novel viewpoint. I just skilled into the Rorq with one of my toons and have a fair way to go to the now coveted JDC Level 5 skill.

I did not see this mentioned earlier in the thread. It seems to me if you Nerf the benefit of a skill you should also Nerf the requirements to get that skill. In this case the time it takes to get the skill should be nerfed commensurate to the amount of benefit lost.

Before you veterans say "Hey wait a minute, why should the new guy get it easier?" Those whom have achieved any JDC skill levels would rightfully be due an SP refund to be used wherever they wish if any reduction in skill time is actually made.

You may say "We did not really nerf the JF" Ok, reduce the skill time proportional to the total loss of jump range benefit across all capitals then.

Omniblivion seems to be the most vocal about the Rorq changes he and others make what seem to be salient points about the jump range change. Most of them seem to favor loosing Drones in favor of keeping range. This takes the previously mentioned "Battle Rorqual" off the table.

Loosing the Drones in favor of range makes the most sense to me as well. Its primary role seems to me to be an Industrial Boosting, Processing and Transport platform.

If stimulating Null activity improving the Null Sec economy is part of the goal of Phoebe, Nerfing JDC and Jump range on the Rorq seems counterproductive. Since the design of EvE has ore presence determined in part by system security level there will continue to be a need to transport ore and minerals across significant ranges. It seems to be part of the larger economy. Trading what I have over here for what you have over there. Maybe I missed something here, but wasn't the Rorqual designed not only to boost, gather, compress and transport ore but to be able to move the entire mining operation in one swift move as well?

I am hoping to use my future Rorq to actually run mining operations with, not to wind up serving it up as a 2.5 Billion isk kill mail to a gate camp.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#151 - 2014-11-04 20:23:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
Hello viking spacelords

I'm setting home station for my medical clones, and across several characters with the same grade clone and numer of jump clones, the install fee ranged from 100,000 ISK to 6,500 ISK to 3,500 ISK. I could not find clarification on this new (?) smart med clone fee formula.

also the interface only let me cancel the first four or five tries ("Change Station" button) before finally populating.

one of them was also set to rookie system (xoxo Todaki 4ever) but maybe I just missed one, it happens.
Miss Doggy
Zahadu
#152 - 2014-11-05 00:02:14 UTC
another boost for Black opps and rest nerfed.
good bye eve.
5 accounts disabled. see you in a year time.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#153 - 2014-11-05 02:09:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
Hey, i heard there was fatigue from wormhole jumps just after patch?

could it be that you used my suggestion about turning cynos into wormholes back when fozzie was talking about hiding incoming sigs...
Sbrodor
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#154 - 2014-11-07 19:11:42 UTC
fatigue for JB is a headshot for reshipping, reach fleet for a later login, come back in staging for logoff ... i a hedshot for every casual player and not hardcore player...
Vexed Angel
Manson Family
Advent of Fate
#155 - 2014-11-10 07:04:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Vexed Angel
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Any more legible now? Logibro broke the text up a bit.


Are you able to at least comment on why the Rorq is being handicapped even further? Is there a plan or any information? These changes combined with how awful the Rorq is already really ruin it. If there was at least some sort of comment from CCP other than "we know it needs a rebalance at ??some point??", that would ease the frustration a bit.


In the choice between "keep drone bonus" and "keep jump range", we landed marginally on the side of the former. We're very prepared to revisit that, we just didn't feel we'd had enough input on the matter one way or the other to sway the decision.




Ya really screwed the pooch on the Rorqual, a.k.a. "poor mans JF"!!!

Heck, I don't even care if you take the Drone Bay away from the Rorqual. You rarely see them in belts, Ice anoms, and I can't say that I've EVER seen a "Battle Rorqual" killmail.

I use mine to fuel pos's, compress ice and ore, store mining ships and haulers. However, now the Rorqual is "USELESS" with a jump range of only 5 ly, now relegated to our home system providing mining bonuses and compressing ore and ice.

A while back there was discussion of changing mining bonuses to be the same as combat bonuses and make the Rorqual be outside of the pos to provide the bonuses. Do this and you will seal the fate of the Rorqual and I'll reprocess mine and build non-capital ships out of its remains!!!

This is an appeal to make logistics the main job of the Rorqual, a viable option to move goods into and out of null sec with the Jump Freighters. Do the right thing extend their jump range, reduce their jump fatigue, severely restrict the Rorqual drone bay, remove the Rorquals ability to fit combat mods and fleet combat boosters. Make the Rorqual Jump range and fatigue the same as a Jump Freighter and insure that the Rorqual and Jump Freighters have "AMPLE" jump range to keep them and null sec a "viable" place in which to live and serve.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#156 - 2014-11-17 14:01:28 UTC
Update on the Rorqual metrics front, now that I've found time to poke at it: it looks like it's definitely being used as a mining support ship substantially more than it is as a PvP ship (somewhat unsurprisingly). I'm not sure what (if anything) we will do in the short term; the ship's clearly in a wonky state, but we don't have the balance bandwidth to look at it right now.
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#157 - 2014-11-17 14:10:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Update on the Rorqual metrics front, now that I've found time to poke at it: it looks like it's definitely being used as a mining support ship substantially more than it is as a PvP ship (somewhat unsurprisingly). I'm not sure what (if anything) we will do in the short term; the ship's clearly in a wonky state, but we don't have the balance bandwidth to look at it right now.


What? Shocked

So you nerf the Rorqual jump range, you give his unique compression ability to POS modules, and now that this ship is left nearly-useless, you tell me that there are no short-term plans to bring it back to life? Straight

Really sadCry
Thanks for the update anyway.

Edit: I'm aware that giving him something amazing like a forcefield generator or something would be a huge time-sink, but surely there could have been plans to buff it somehow. Make it viable in some area.

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart

Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere
Coalition of the Unfortunate
#158 - 2014-11-17 14:19:33 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Update on the Rorqual metrics front, now that I've found time to poke at it: it looks like it's definitely being used as a mining support ship substantially more than it is as a PvP ship (somewhat unsurprisingly). I'm not sure what (if anything) we will do in the short term; the ship's clearly in a wonky state, but we don't have the balance bandwidth to look at it right now.


... and this is why you should have just given it the range and fatigue bonus at the start.
TheMercenaryKing
Ultimatum.
#159 - 2014-11-17 14:58:31 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Update on the Rorqual metrics front, now that I've found time to poke at it: it looks like it's definitely being used as a mining support ship substantially more than it is as a PvP ship (somewhat unsurprisingly). I'm not sure what (if anything) we will do in the short term; the ship's clearly in a wonky state, but we don't have the balance bandwidth to look at it right now.


This is all you need it to do to make it a somewhat better ship:

Quote:
Capital Industrial Ships skill bonuses:

  • -5% reduction in fuel consumption for industrial cores per level
  • 10% bonus to effectiveness of mining foreman warfare links per level when in deployed mode
  • 50% bonus to the range of Capital Shield Transporters per level.
  • 20% bonus to drone damage and hitpoints per level.
  • 50% Bonus per level to Mining drone Yield when in deployed mode.


Role Bonuses:
  • 900% bonus to the range of survey scanners
  • 200% bonus to the range of cargo scanners
  • 100% Bonus to Mining drone velocity


Can fit Clone Vat Bay
Can use 3 Warfare Link modules simultaneously
5 LY Base jump range (10 LY)


Quote:
Industrial Mode:

  • Reduce to 30 or 60 second cycles.
  • Potentially give it a resistance bonus to the ship's shield (15-20%?)


With all level 5 and 3 mining drone rigs (2 Tech II), you would yield about 1500/minute, about a hulk with T1 strips and boosts.
it would suffer due to the drones having to travel, thus not actually equaling a hulk in practice.

Yroc Jannseen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#160 - 2014-11-17 16:16:50 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Update on the Rorqual metrics front, now that I've found time to poke at it: it looks like it's definitely being used as a mining support ship substantially more than it is as a PvP ship (somewhat unsurprisingly). I'm not sure what (if anything) we will do in the short term; the ship's clearly in a wonky state, but we don't have the balance bandwidth to look at it right now.


Thank you for looking into it.

However.

I don't think anyone was ever advocating that the Rorqual is/was or should be used as a PVP ship.

We were advocating that the Rorqual is the best ship for doing anything to do with POS fuelling/dropping/tearing down. In some cases these things are done in potentially hostile environments, which is why a ship with a full slot layout is better than a JF. Doing this now has become a bigger pain in the ass due to the reduced range, which your reasoning for reducing to 5ly not 10 like JF's, was the drone bonus.

The folks who WANT to have a rorqual in a belt were the ones advocating keeping the drone bonus. On the condition that other steps be taken to make it more viable in the belt.

I'm curious what metrics you looked at. Because to me the big question is, what percentage of Rorquals out there have mining links or compression modules fitted? I can tell you my highs are neuts, smarbombs and a cyno, all of which I hopefully don't have to use and I've also never used the ship in any sort of mining support role.

So what you are left with is one group who uses the ship for mining support, largely hiding within a POS and another group who uses them as an alternative to a JF for hauling or hauling in situations where a JF is an unnecessary risk.

The group who keeps their rorquals hiding in a pos, want to keep the drone bonus, even though they spend all their time in a POS. The group that does hauling, who are arguably at more risk, say screw the drone bonus we would rather have the range and we realistically are not going to be in combat anyways, otherwise something has gone wrong and what we really will be doing is trying to escape.

While I think most people understand limited resources, the justification of reduced jump range in favour of a drone bonus that nobody actually uses and won't use without other significant changes, doesn't make any sense.