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PCO's... just grief bait?
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Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
#21 - 2011-12-14 07:00:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Ioci
Ranger 1 wrote:
Ioci wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Ioci wrote:
EVE Online is a free for all PvP universe. The PvE is there to create ships and components for PvP.

If you spend time in Null, low sec or Highsec building an "Empire" for any other reason than to bait people in to engaging you, creating PvP for your alliance, you did it wrong.

Short, it's all bait.


Skill and cunning often wins battles.

ISK and planning often wins wars.

Industry can serve as more than just bait. It also provides the power, ISK, and materials that an alliance needs to obtain it's military objectives. Any member of your alliance leadership will confirm this.


Subcomponents of PvP.
How many Alliance leaders established a plan to confront the Serpentis threat against Gallente space?

There is no skill and cunning. Timing perhaps is a critical component. Intell is for sure but when it comes down to the mathematics of EVE warfare it's spreadsheets in space.

While most Industrial components of EVE are actually won or lost based on a players ability to evade PvP, it's still PvP dominated both in purpose and tactic.


I'm glad we agree that in most cases industry is far more than "short, it's all bait".

It is an extremely important component in fueling any meaningful large scale PVP. Whether it be moo goo providing funds for Super Caps, or PI products providing basic income to keep the grunts supplied with their daily needs and keep them happy, or anything in between.

I think we both know that most of the ships and ammunition used in alliance scale PVP comes not from the self important High Sec only industrialist players, but rather from Null sec alliance industry alts (whether based in Null or Empire). So don't mistake my statements to mean that I believe PVP would not exist without High Sec care bear industrial pursuits. Far from it.

I'm simply saying (in this little sub discussion of ours) that a strong method of generating income (whatever it's source) is essential for any successful group that wishes to play with the big boys. It needs to be defended and developed far more often than it needs to be thrown out there as bait.

Edit: As a side note to your comment about "there is no skill or cunning" in EVE PVP... there are a lot of people in EVE who feel exactly as you do. You will find them listed together for convenience sake In the "Victim" category of any kill board.


High Sec Industry is vital to null sec but it isn't player side, it's stuff like R&D that they haven't intergrated in to null sec. You can't get data cores in Null to keep production. As for ship side, no high sec Ops is going to compete with Outpost industry so yes, certainly null takes care of its own.

Even your edit I think you will find we agree because most of the cunning can be traced back to intell.

For the OP's sake, any infrastructure you add to EVE is a magent for PvP and that's done on purpose. If you build it and they blow it up, don't rebuild it. It's like being robbed, most people get robbed multiple times. Once the thief knows how to get in, you are an easy mark. If you succeed in defending it, expect a bigger fish to try next time, so either up the defence or move the Ops. There are loads of planets in EVE.

R.I.P. Vile Rat
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2011-12-14 08:43:49 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
mkint wrote:
You forgot the distribution. The vast majority went up in nullsec and w-space (about equal numbers between the two) with very very few in lowsec where they would be griefed. Once the highsecers realize there is zero profits to be made from highsec PI any more because the nullbears can depress prices to below tax levels, they might move to lowsec. Where they'll get griefed back to highsec so nullbears can control yet another toy to solidify their RMT empires.

Also so much for Greyscale's "f*ck wormholers" attitude. Right back at ya dude.


And yet 778 spots were cleared for them in low sec. A minority yes, but considering the difficulties involved fairly understandable.
Only 18 PCO's killed total in all area's of space. No matter how you cut it, that's not a lot of dead PCO's.
It's pretty obvious that Null Sec and WH space has the advantage, especially on the higher tier PI products. This tends to make sense as transporting the more complex PI goods from Null has always been much more efficient than moving basic materials.
On the other hand I'm not really seeing High sec production being made a losing proposition yet anywhere.
Somehow I don't see the widespread success of PI in WH to be putting one over on Greyscale, but your point of view is an interesting twist. Smile


Not only were 778 Interbus CO's destroyed in lowsec, 674 Player owned ones were put in their place.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=512323#post512323
Very few of them are dead so far.
Russell Casey
Doomheim
#23 - 2011-12-14 12:33:44 UTC
Messoroz wrote:

Funny fact, xxDeathxx declared war on SOLAR (i..e russians are shooting each other) because someone ddosed their billing system. Now think of a reason why an EVE alliance needs a billing system bwahaha


What's Russian for "Hey! That's my Bread and Butter you're ******* with!"?
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#24 - 2011-12-14 15:49:53 UTC
Takseen wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
mkint wrote:
You forgot the distribution. The vast majority went up in nullsec and w-space (about equal numbers between the two) with very very few in lowsec where they would be griefed. Once the highsecers realize there is zero profits to be made from highsec PI any more because the nullbears can depress prices to below tax levels, they might move to lowsec. Where they'll get griefed back to highsec so nullbears can control yet another toy to solidify their RMT empires.

Also so much for Greyscale's "f*ck wormholers" attitude. Right back at ya dude.


And yet 778 spots were cleared for them in low sec. A minority yes, but considering the difficulties involved fairly understandable.
Only 18 PCO's killed total in all area's of space. No matter how you cut it, that's not a lot of dead PCO's.
It's pretty obvious that Null Sec and WH space has the advantage, especially on the higher tier PI products. This tends to make sense as transporting the more complex PI goods from Null has always been much more efficient than moving basic materials.
On the other hand I'm not really seeing High sec production being made a losing proposition yet anywhere.
Somehow I don't see the widespread success of PI in WH to be putting one over on Greyscale, but your point of view is an interesting twist. Smile


Not only were 778 Interbus CO's destroyed in lowsec, 674 Player owned ones were put in their place.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=512323#post512323
Very few of them are dead so far.


Thanks! That was the bit of info I was looking for and missed.

So last week 674 PCO's went up in Low Sec.
Only 18 destroyed in any area of space.

In other threads we have confirmation that some of the faction warfare groups are putting them up and defending them, while maintaining a low tax rate open for everyone. Star Fraction is doing the same, but with a zero tax rate.

An interesting picture is forming.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#25 - 2011-12-14 16:35:11 UTC
Ioci wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Ioci wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Ioci wrote:
EVE Online is a free for all PvP universe. The PvE is there to create ships and components for PvP.

If you spend time in Null, low sec or Highsec building an "Empire" for any other reason than to bait people in to engaging you, creating PvP for your alliance, you did it wrong.

Short, it's all bait.


Skill and cunning often wins battles.

ISK and planning often wins wars.

Industry can serve as more than just bait. It also provides the power, ISK, and materials that an alliance needs to obtain it's military objectives. Any member of your alliance leadership will confirm this.


Subcomponents of PvP.
How many Alliance leaders established a plan to confront the Serpentis threat against Gallente space?

There is no skill and cunning. Timing perhaps is a critical component. Intell is for sure but when it comes down to the mathematics of EVE warfare it's spreadsheets in space.

While most Industrial components of EVE are actually won or lost based on a players ability to evade PvP, it's still PvP dominated both in purpose and tactic.


I'm glad we agree that in most cases industry is far more than "short, it's all bait".

It is an extremely important component in fueling any meaningful large scale PVP. Whether it be moo goo providing funds for Super Caps, or PI products providing basic income to keep the grunts supplied with their daily needs and keep them happy, or anything in between.

I think we both know that most of the ships and ammunition used in alliance scale PVP comes not from the self important High Sec only industrialist players, but rather from Null sec alliance industry alts (whether based in Null or Empire). So don't mistake my statements to mean that I believe PVP would not exist without High Sec care bear industrial pursuits. Far from it.

I'm simply saying (in this little sub discussion of ours) that a strong method of generating income (whatever it's source) is essential for any successful group that wishes to play with the big boys. It needs to be defended and developed far more often than it needs to be thrown out there as bait.

Edit: As a side note to your comment about "there is no skill or cunning" in EVE PVP... there are a lot of people in EVE who feel exactly as you do. You will find them listed together for convenience sake In the "Victim" category of any kill board.


High Sec Industry is vital to null sec but it isn't player side, it's stuff like R&D that they haven't intergrated in to null sec. You can't get data cores in Null to keep production. As for ship side, no high sec Ops is going to compete with Outpost industry so yes, certainly null takes care of its own.

Even your edit I think you will find we agree because most of the cunning can be traced back to intell.

For the OP's sake, any infrastructure you add to EVE is a magent for PvP and that's done on purpose. If you build it and they blow it up, don't rebuild it. It's like being robbed, most people get robbed multiple times. Once the thief knows how to get in, you are an easy mark. If you succeed in defending it, expect a bigger fish to try next time, so either up the defence or move the Ops. There are loads of planets in EVE.


We aren't totally at odds in our opinions, but a couple of observations:

1: Many Null sec players that do invention for funds do the actual invention process on their High Sec industry alts so that they have easy access to those data cores.

2: Most T2 production that takes place in Null is done from BPO's.

3: Accurate and timely intel is vital to Null sec operation, yes. Cunning is knowing how to best use that information. Two different things.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Taedrin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2011-12-14 17:28:16 UTC
Do you know how boring it is to sit there and shoot at a static structure for an hour and then have to set an alarm clock so that you can wake up and do it all over again tomorrow? Given that the return on investment on these things is 2-3 months, people don't want to gank these things for profit. So the only reason to gank them is for tears. But this is low sec we are talking about here - residents are much more likely to observe a no-chatting-in-local policy. And on top of that, they have to be worried about getting ganked themselves.

If a ganker is looking for tears, it is just so much easier (and safer) to find them in high sec.
Borun Tal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2011-12-14 17:39:43 UTC
mkint wrote:

That's a thing of beauty right there. I wonder how much a cut the devs that turn a blind eye get, and what would happen to EVE if it became publicized that CCP endorses specific groups RMT activities.



You haven't been around that long, have ya? Blink
Kyle Valentine
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2011-12-14 18:44:59 UTC
In fact, the more interesting things will come UNDER the PCOs. This is only a pre-DUST change. Hisec for PvE DUST players, Low and Null for the real war between them. And between them... and the nullsec runners.

But, if DUST fail, well, all these beautiful Hisec PI will go with the trash.
ALTternate
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#29 - 2011-12-14 19:25:18 UTC
Ladie Harlot wrote:
mkint wrote:
You forgot the distribution. The vast majority went up in nullsec and w-space (about equal numbers between the two) with very very few in lowsec where they would be griefed. Once the highsecers realize there is zero profits to be made from highsec PI any more because the nullbears can depress prices to below tax levels, they might move to lowsec. Where they'll get griefed back to highsec so nullbears can control yet another toy to solidify their RMT empires.

Also so much for Greyscale's "f*ck wormholers" attitude. Right back at ya dude.

Considering how much money can be made in high sec with LESS RISK THAN NULL I'm fine with this scenario.


FTFY.
Maxpie
MUSE LLP
#30 - 2011-12-14 20:04:18 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:


Source



More stuff like this please CCP. There can never be too much stats and info for my liking.

No good deed goes unpunished
Bennet Am
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2011-12-14 20:15:26 UTC
Some low sec POCOs were starting to go into reinforced this morning. In my part of space some tiny 'pirate' corps put up POCOs on some of the better planets. The local alliance is now sweeping them off.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#32 - 2011-12-15 04:16:01 UTC
Bennet Am wrote:
Some low sec POCOs were starting to go into reinforced this morning. In my part of space some tiny 'pirate' corps put up POCOs on some of the better planets. The local alliance is now sweeping them off.


So "economic" warfare is starting.
Dunkler Imperator
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2011-12-15 04:30:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Dunkler Imperator
haven't done my pi since the patch. Live in null

All i have to say is this


SHOOTING STRUCTURES IS F_ING BORING!

Why won't ccp get this! please for the love of god No more structures with millions of hit points and a RF timer. It's just not fun and the pvp sucks balls cause they can set the timer for Some ungodly hr when we are sleeping or at work.

Pi was boring and not realy worth it before, but now i just don't care. The isk is not worth the effort.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#34 - 2011-12-15 04:40:38 UTC
Dunkler Imperator wrote:

Why won't ccp get this! please for the love of god No more structures with millions of hit points and a RF timer. It's just not fun and the pvp sucks balls cause they can set the timer for Some ungodly hr when we are sleeping or at work.


Why? Because damage dealing in EVE stacks infinitely well. Bring 2x the ships, stuff dies twice as fast. Bring 10x the ships, stuff dies 10x faster.

Figure out a way that you can't just stack DPS on a target to kill it faster and you'll have an EVE where large structure shoots are less necessary. Other MMOs do this via instanced bosses with member count limits in the fleet/group/raid size, but that won't work for EVE.
Dunkler Imperator
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#35 - 2011-12-15 05:24:19 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
Dunkler Imperator wrote:

Why won't ccp get this! please for the love of god No more structures with millions of hit points and a RF timer. It's just not fun and the pvp sucks balls cause they can set the timer for Some ungodly hr when we are sleeping or at work.


Why? Because damage dealing in EVE stacks infinitely well. Bring 2x the ships, stuff dies twice as fast. Bring 10x the ships, stuff dies 10x faster.

Figure out a way that you can't just stack DPS on a target to kill it faster and you'll have an EVE where large structure shoots are less necessary. Other MMOs do this via instanced bosses with member count limits in the fleet/group/raid size, but that won't work for EVE.



Well I understand that's the problem. That's why the blob works so well Numbers matter not skill.

So How does ccp fix this problem?
More hp and a RF timer.

what I don't understand is Why we needed POCO's

What is their purpose in eve? how do they make this game anymore fun to play then it was before?

They don't encourage small gang warfare because they take too long to kill and Have a RF timer set by the defender.
Large alliance's Don't benefit because Pos fuel prices are going to rise as the risk rises. + It's more work for already burnt out logistic pilots.

High sec get's the shaft.
And WH's are collateral dmg

Could a CCP dev Tell me What benefit they brought to the game? Cause i just don't see it.
mkint
#36 - 2011-12-15 06:21:15 UTC
Dunkler Imperator wrote:
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
Dunkler Imperator wrote:

Why won't ccp get this! please for the love of god No more structures with millions of hit points and a RF timer. It's just not fun and the pvp sucks balls cause they can set the timer for Some ungodly hr when we are sleeping or at work.


Why? Because damage dealing in EVE stacks infinitely well. Bring 2x the ships, stuff dies twice as fast. Bring 10x the ships, stuff dies 10x faster.

Figure out a way that you can't just stack DPS on a target to kill it faster and you'll have an EVE where large structure shoots are less necessary. Other MMOs do this via instanced bosses with member count limits in the fleet/group/raid size, but that won't work for EVE.



Well I understand that's the problem. That's why the blob works so well Numbers matter not skill.

So How does ccp fix this problem?
More hp and a RF timer.

what I don't understand is Why we needed POCO's

What is their purpose in eve? how do they make this game anymore fun to play then it was before?

They don't encourage small gang warfare because they take too long to kill and Have a RF timer set by the defender.
Large alliance's Don't benefit because Pos fuel prices are going to rise as the risk rises. + It's more work for already burnt out logistic pilots.

High sec get's the shaft.
And WH's are collateral dmg

Could a CCP dev Tell me What benefit they brought to the game? Cause i just don't see it.



They did it for the $. No POCOs, no multiplayer PI, no Dust. And gawd are POCOs an awful attempt at multiplayer PI.

Dust plan:
1) create planetary interaction as a game mechanic that encourages people to interact (fail)
2) create a way for planetary interaction and dust to "link" in a meaningful way (because of PI being an epic design failure, this is a fail as well, but presumably this what POCO is for)
3) Implement dust and allow it to integrate with EVE (will be such a failure because PI was so ill conceived to begin with)

The reason dust will fail: an individual duster can in no way contribute as much to EVE as even a simple rookie EVE player. If all a duster has to contribute is "reducing threat of PI output disruptions" their isk/hour value is so extremely low they might as well be unpaid slaves. Consider... what is the value a single EVE pilot (PI is a single player activity though POCOs are a failing attempt to remedy that design f*ck up) can produce per month in PI? How much isk/hour does that average out to? The approximate income potential of a duster will be less than that.

But I digress... You have to do more structure bashes so Hilmar can get the private jet he was hoping to pay for with Incarna. Make you feel all warm and fuzzy?

Oh, also so Grayscale's nullbear friends can corner the market on PI goods to enhance their RMT income.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2011-12-15 06:44:51 UTC
Dunkler Imperator wrote:
what I don't understand is Why we needed POCO's

We (Eve players) don't need them but CCP has this ridiculous fantasy of console kiddies and Eve players engaging in glorious combat over planetary resources.

We just have to hope that POCOs are the extent of Eve getting screwed to give Dust players something to do in the short time between its launch and when it fails.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
Lone Gunman
Forhotea Corporation
#38 - 2011-12-15 09:19:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Lone Gunman
Dust 514 and PI, I don't get it. Hilmar has already stated, initially anyway, all combat will only be on Terran worlds. So what are Dusties fighting over? Autotropes and Industrial fibers?
Yes you can put factories up but mine are on barren planets.
Never Learn
Doomheim
#39 - 2011-12-15 09:40:10 UTC
mkint wrote:
You forgot the distribution. The vast majority went up in nullsec and w-space (about equal numbers between the two) with very very few in lowsec where they would be griefed. Once the highsecers realize there is zero profits to be made from highsec PI any more because the nullbears can depress prices to below tax levels, they might move to lowsec. Where they'll get griefed back to highsec so nullbears can control yet another toy to solidify their RMT empires.

Also so much for Greyscale's "f*ck wormholers" attitude. Right back at ya dude.


2 things...first getting mad at the RMTers only raises your bloodpressure. I have a feeling very few RMTers buy isk and keep the RMT trade going . I get the feeling it's Joe Loggon Casually buying the isk. Perhaps efforts to educate Joe Casual would help but i doubt it.
Also you could educate us that don't know what areas of the market are prone to RMTers - we could make efforts to become self-sufficent there and not buy RMT products on market.

And 2 ...quit poking Greyscale, most people agree wormholes are the funnest and least screwed up part of the game. If you keep poking Greyscale and putting wormholes in the headlines they are bound to get changes. keep a low profile ....
wormhole ?...nothing here to see , move along
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#40 - 2011-12-15 14:25:23 UTC
Lone Gunman wrote:
Dust 514 and PI, I don't get it. Hilmar has already stated, initially anyway, all combat will only be on Terran worlds. So what are Dusties fighting over? Autotropes and Industrial fibers?
Yes you can put factories up but mine are on barren planets.


I could be mis-remembering, but I believe that combat can also take place on barren planets.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
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