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Nb4DEVBLOG - The New T3 Tactical Destroyer OMG I FORGIVE CCP FOZZIE <3
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DrysonBennington
Eagle's Talon's
#41 - 2014-10-20 22:31:49 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Milton Middleson wrote:
It might be quite a wait for the devblog; they're coming in December, unless my memory fails me.

Quote:
Right now speed and range synergize in a way that makes it so that if you're in anything slower, even if it's more powerful, the fight is theirs to lose, not yours to win.


Unfortunately, range and speed will pretty much always synergize like that, whereas DPS and tank just sort of co-exist (and all that DPS doesn't mean **** when you'll never get close enough to apply it). Doesn't help that a brawling configuration than can deal with kiters is frequently at a huge disadvantage vs other brawlers, whereas the converse isn't true. I don't really think that tracking speed is at the heart of the issue though (referencing Catherine Lartii's comment). The speed gap between 'slow' and 'fast' needs to be narrowed significantly and/or heavier ships need better standoff abilities so they don't autolose vs sufficiently fast range setups.

Look on the upside: maybe you'll be able to use the speed mode on tactical destroyers to catch targets and then swap to defense mode while you beat them to death. Actually, the ability to do everything is likely to be the biggest balancing issue for tactical destroyers. Between sniping, kiting, and brawling, there's a good chance you'll have a compelling answer to anything in your weight class.

A good example for weapon systems that are in a good place right now for ships like this are 75mm rails. Even though their dps is on the lower end, on a corm their range and tracking speed is extremely good, and with javelin they can be made to be particularly effective brawlers should the need arises.
The point you make about brawlers that can deal with kiters are usually bad vs other brawlers is a pretty good one as it applies well to small rails and drones in particular. While I think it would be ideal to get rid of any of the tracking penalties to t2 weapons, and buff it on the short-range high-damage ammo like void and conflag, the issue DOES remain with turrets medium or larger being relatively inflexible vs smaller ships.

It is my guess that the amarr and gallente destroyers will have a primary drone focus with a laser and hybrid secondary focus, and the caldari and minmatar ones have a primary focus on missiles for each of them, and a secondary focus for long hybrid optimal like the corm and a very long falloff for the minnie one that can be used for AC kiting as well as arty sniping.


I wonder if the SoE are going to get in on the new T3 building?
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#42 - 2014-10-21 02:32:18 UTC
DrysonBennington wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Milton Middleson wrote:
It might be quite a wait for the devblog; they're coming in December, unless my memory fails me.

Quote:
Right now speed and range synergize in a way that makes it so that if you're in anything slower, even if it's more powerful, the fight is theirs to lose, not yours to win.


Unfortunately, range and speed will pretty much always synergize like that, whereas DPS and tank just sort of co-exist (and all that DPS doesn't mean **** when you'll never get close enough to apply it). Doesn't help that a brawling configuration than can deal with kiters is frequently at a huge disadvantage vs other brawlers, whereas the converse isn't true. I don't really think that tracking speed is at the heart of the issue though (referencing Catherine Lartii's comment). The speed gap between 'slow' and 'fast' needs to be narrowed significantly and/or heavier ships need better standoff abilities so they don't autolose vs sufficiently fast range setups.

Look on the upside: maybe you'll be able to use the speed mode on tactical destroyers to catch targets and then swap to defense mode while you beat them to death. Actually, the ability to do everything is likely to be the biggest balancing issue for tactical destroyers. Between sniping, kiting, and brawling, there's a good chance you'll have a compelling answer to anything in your weight class.

A good example for weapon systems that are in a good place right now for ships like this are 75mm rails. Even though their dps is on the lower end, on a corm their range and tracking speed is extremely good, and with javelin they can be made to be particularly effective brawlers should the need arises.
The point you make about brawlers that can deal with kiters are usually bad vs other brawlers is a pretty good one as it applies well to small rails and drones in particular. While I think it would be ideal to get rid of any of the tracking penalties to t2 weapons, and buff it on the short-range high-damage ammo like void and conflag, the issue DOES remain with turrets medium or larger being relatively inflexible vs smaller ships.

It is my guess that the amarr and gallente destroyers will have a primary drone focus with a laser and hybrid secondary focus, and the caldari and minmatar ones have a primary focus on missiles for each of them, and a secondary focus for long hybrid optimal like the corm and a very long falloff for the minnie one that can be used for AC kiting as well as arty sniping.


I wonder if the SoE are going to get in on the new T3 building?



But they don't do combat ships right? So no T3 Tac. Destroyers from them I would think?

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#43 - 2014-10-21 03:15:09 UTC
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
DrysonBennington wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Milton Middleson wrote:
It might be quite a wait for the devblog; they're coming in December, unless my memory fails me.

Quote:
Right now speed and range synergize in a way that makes it so that if you're in anything slower, even if it's more powerful, the fight is theirs to lose, not yours to win.


Unfortunately, range and speed will pretty much always synergize like that, whereas DPS and tank just sort of co-exist (and all that DPS doesn't mean **** when you'll never get close enough to apply it). Doesn't help that a brawling configuration than can deal with kiters is frequently at a huge disadvantage vs other brawlers, whereas the converse isn't true. I don't really think that tracking speed is at the heart of the issue though (referencing Catherine Lartii's comment). The speed gap between 'slow' and 'fast' needs to be narrowed significantly and/or heavier ships need better standoff abilities so they don't autolose vs sufficiently fast range setups.

Look on the upside: maybe you'll be able to use the speed mode on tactical destroyers to catch targets and then swap to defense mode while you beat them to death. Actually, the ability to do everything is likely to be the biggest balancing issue for tactical destroyers. Between sniping, kiting, and brawling, there's a good chance you'll have a compelling answer to anything in your weight class.

A good example for weapon systems that are in a good place right now for ships like this are 75mm rails. Even though their dps is on the lower end, on a corm their range and tracking speed is extremely good, and with javelin they can be made to be particularly effective brawlers should the need arises.
The point you make about brawlers that can deal with kiters are usually bad vs other brawlers is a pretty good one as it applies well to small rails and drones in particular. While I think it would be ideal to get rid of any of the tracking penalties to t2 weapons, and buff it on the short-range high-damage ammo like void and conflag, the issue DOES remain with turrets medium or larger being relatively inflexible vs smaller ships.

It is my guess that the amarr and gallente destroyers will have a primary drone focus with a laser and hybrid secondary focus, and the caldari and minmatar ones have a primary focus on missiles for each of them, and a secondary focus for long hybrid optimal like the corm and a very long falloff for the minnie one that can be used for AC kiting as well as arty sniping.


I wonder if the SoE are going to get in on the new T3 building?



But they don't do combat ships right? So no T3 Tac. Destroyers from them I would think?

We can't have faction t3 unfortunately. :(
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#44 - 2014-10-23 00:50:50 UTC
Ah little T3 Destroyer thread don't die on me now... we don't even have a dev blog yet!

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Freako X
Doom Inc
#45 - 2014-11-16 20:53:59 UTC
I love the concept and flying smaller ships. I am excited about these.....

Any word on the skills needed? Are new skills being introduced?
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#46 - 2014-11-16 21:00:33 UTC
Freako X wrote:
I love the concept and flying smaller ships. I am excited about these.....

Any word on the skills needed? Are new skills being introduced?

Well I'd guess that you'd need dessy 5 for starters. Probably the same deal with the t3 with having lvl 5 sub skills like mechanics, nav etc. But the dessy skill itself would be easier to get into than training cruiser or battleship to 5. Same with the weapons.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#47 - 2014-11-16 21:17:00 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Freako X wrote:
I love the concept and flying smaller ships. I am excited about these.....

Any word on the skills needed? Are new skills being introduced?

Well I'd guess that you'd need dessy 5 for starters. Probably the same deal with the t3 with having lvl 5 sub skills like mechanics, nav etc. But the dessy skill itself would be easier to get into than training cruiser or battleship to 5. Same with the weapons.


i would hope that since its T3 not T2 that it shouldn't need any lv5 skills whatsoever ... since T3 isn't about specialisation at all so shouldn't need specialist skills too use.
i also hope when they do the T3 cruiser rebalance they take the same approach

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#48 - 2014-11-16 23:47:24 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Freako X wrote:
I love the concept and flying smaller ships. I am excited about these.....

Any word on the skills needed? Are new skills being introduced?

Well I'd guess that you'd need dessy 5 for starters. Probably the same deal with the t3 with having lvl 5 sub skills like mechanics, nav etc. But the dessy skill itself would be easier to get into than training cruiser or battleship to 5. Same with the weapons.


i would hope that since its T3 not T2 that it shouldn't need any lv5 skills whatsoever ... since T3 isn't about specialisation at all so shouldn't need specialist skills too use.
i also hope when they do the T3 cruiser rebalance they take the same approach

Nerfing tank and dps and buffing versatility is the right way to go for t3 rebal. Hoping to see resists nerfed, but covops moved to an electronic sub.
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