These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

making suicide ganking a little more fair to miners, esp. solo miners
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Waltaratzor
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
#41 - 2014-11-15 04:26:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Waltaratzor
Mateo Cobra wrote:
ALL:

I joined Eve about 3 months ago and have been reading voraciously on as many topics as I can. My first and main job is mining. After my first retriever was ganked in TAMA, I realized there's no way to protect myself in 0.3 space as a solo miner.

After a few more gankings, only in retrievers and a mackinaw, and some more research from both perspectives, the gankers ("gankstas"?) definitely have an unfair advantage. They can come up to your machine while cloaked, scan it for tanking equipment, go refit in a staging area, and come back for the suicide run.

Insurance is a small help. Platinum insurance raises the ship cost by about 1/3. Worse, I've always been podded. There's no penalty for the pirates, and so there's no reason to not pod the defenseless miner. [Implants are expensive.]

Insurance for the implants are, I suppose, out of the question.

IDEA#1: So here's the idea. Let's have pirates that do not pod their prey be in one category, "non-podding criminals," and pirates that do pod be in another category, "podding criminals.". The difference is that the authorities will attack "podding criminals" and destroy not only their ride but also their pod. This makes it more expensive for podding.

IDEA#2: put self-destruct on more expensive, larger ships only.

IDEA#3: add the ability for pilots to hire NPC "bodyguards," scaling force and time by cost. This allows some safety for solo miners in exchange for some of their profits. Considerations like war and traveling between factions and other issues make this a can of worms, but there is some potential in this idea for people who still want to fly mackinaws and retrievers but cannot adequately tank, or who would rather fit for mining speed than for tanking. So I need some constructive ideas to flesh this one out.

Thanks for reading -- hope this inspires you! Big smile

Mateo


Pods instawarp. Unless you are in null or they are using smart bombs you have no excuse for getting podded.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#42 - 2014-11-15 04:30:14 UTC
Waltaratzor wrote:
Pods instawarp. Unless you are in null or they are using smart bombs you have no excuse for getting podded.

... or worm holes.

... and yes, I have scanned down WHs and operated from high-sec into them.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#43 - 2014-11-15 06:41:35 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:


There are two choices:

Procurer for more tank
or
Hulk for more yield.



These maybe the choices you want to choose from, but look around you, skiffs, retties, macks and covs are all also being flown.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Jurico Elemenohpe
Flipsid3 Tactics
#44 - 2014-11-15 10:12:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Jurico Elemenohpe
Mateo Cobra wrote:
ALL:

I joined Eve about 3 months ago and have been reading voraciously on as many topics as I can. My first and main job is mining. After my first retriever was ganked in TAMA, I realized there's no way to protect myself in 0.3 space as a solo miner.

After a few more gankings, only in retrievers and a mackinaw, and some more research from both perspectives, the gankers ("gankstas"?) definitely have an unfair advantage. They can come up to your machine while cloaked, scan it for tanking equipment, go refit in a staging area, and come back for the suicide run.

Insurance is a small help. Platinum insurance raises the ship cost by about 1/3. Worse, I've always been podded. There's no penalty for the pirates, and so there's no reason to not pod the defenseless miner. [Implants are expensive.]

Insurance for the implants are, I suppose, out of the question.

IDEA#1: So here's the idea. Let's have pirates that do not pod their prey be in one category, "non-podding criminals," and pirates that do pod be in another category, "podding criminals.". The difference is that the authorities will attack "podding criminals" and destroy not only their ride but also their pod. This makes it more expensive for podding.

IDEA#2: put self-destruct on more expensive, larger ships only.

IDEA#3: add the ability for pilots to hire NPC "bodyguards," scaling force and time by cost. This allows some safety for solo miners in exchange for some of their profits. Considerations like war and traveling between factions and other issues make this a can of worms, but there is some potential in this idea for people who still want to fly mackinaws and retrievers but cannot adequately tank, or who would rather fit for mining speed than for tanking. So I need some constructive ideas to flesh this one out.

Thanks for reading -- hope this inspires you! Big smile

Mateo
Probably already covered but oh well.
1a. Easy to save your pod. Have a tab called "Celestials" or "Warpout", it should have celestials (planets/moons, no sun). When you're in armor/structure, choose a celestial and spam warp to on it. Dock up in a station once your aggression timer has expired (explained later).
2a. What does self-destruct have to do with suicide ganking?
3a. This is alright.. But I doubt it'd be very good. NPCs are stupid and easy to kill, if they're too op and you can afford them on a miners budget, using them for pvp would become a lowsec meta (imo, anyway).

There's no real defense for a Retriever or Mackinaw. Their tank is meh and they get taken down in highsec on a daily basis. Using a skiff? Much better idea. 200-300+ dps (You should have good drone skills), 90k+ ehp. Solo pirates might engage you. And small gangs probably will. But against solo pirates? You're doing 200-300 dps and your ehp is way higher than theirs. Once they warp out, dock up (so your shields repair), go to a different belt and continue your life of boredom. Small gangs will take time to kill you, and you should join a player corp (with pvp'rs), so that they can come to you if they've got nothing else to do and fight. Potentially saving you. And you have some dps anyway, so you might be able to drive them off. Probably not though.
Against blobs, you have no chance.
Anyway, might I suggest mining in highsec? The potential isk gain is very small (atleast, it is in Amarr space) and your profit will probably turn out higher because of less ship loss.

Also, they can't (afaik), scan your ship while they're cloaked. They can provide a warpin, but not scan you.

Oh yeah.
I just re read the OP.
Mining yield on a Skiff and a mackinaw is equal. Although more warping time, I suppose.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#45 - 2014-11-15 11:12:42 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:

These maybe the choices you want to choose from, but look around you, skiffs, retties, macks and covs are all also being flown.


Only by those that haven't crunched the m3/s

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Jurico Elemenohpe
Flipsid3 Tactics
#46 - 2014-11-15 11:21:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Jurico Elemenohpe
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:

These maybe the choices you want to choose from, but look around you, skiffs, retties, macks and covs are all also being flown.


Only by those that haven't crunched the m3/s
m3/h is highest on the mackinaw when solo mining, I think. I'll go run the maths, but I think the travel time reduction on it makes it better than the hulk.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#47 - 2014-11-15 11:51:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Jurico Elemenohpe wrote:
m3/h is highest on the mackinaw when solo mining, I think. I'll go run the maths, but I think the travel time reduction on it makes it better than the hulk.


Jet cans + new ore holds + saved location + tractor beams.

By default, the Mackraw is only holding one jet can worth and you are making two warps, there and back. I pick up 4 cans + a hold in a fifth can + carry back a hold of ore and do that in a return trip and two Miasmos trips.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
#48 - 2014-11-15 12:44:26 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:

There are two choices:

Procurer for more tank
or
Hulk for more yield.

Hulk you need enough ISK to risk not being blown up for 16 days to make the yield worth it over the Procurer. That is when it has paid off itself in the difference of yield.

The sacrifice for tank has already been paid for, many years running; with the lack of damage they do.

* * *

Jet cans + new ore holds + saved location + tractor beams.

By default, the Mackraw is only holding one jet can worth and you are making two warps, there and back. I pick up 4 cans + a hold in a fifth can + carry back a hold of ore and do that in a return trip and two Miasmos trips.


Dear, you've confused me.
Retriever is probably the hottest selling Barge there is. Mostly because AFK miners have just rolled a ret a week into their price margin as an 'unavoidable' expense.


There are really 3 choices of barges.
Procs are decently tanked, and that's usually enough to dismay a potential ganker.
Retrievers have a nice ore-hold, though they lowered it a bit a few patches ago, it's still massive enough to draw people to it.
The ret and the proc mine at very close to the same rate. The proc needs to unload a bit more often, but that is enough to put most novice miners (or those in very empty and/or upper High-sec systems) into a ret.

The coveter mines faster, but really requires a fleet to shine. It's tiny ore-hold means you'll be running back and forth to the station if flying solo... or worse... jet-can mining, which draws gankers like a moth to flame. It is also built like an egg; it cracks easily. With proper support, though, then it's more than worth the price of its drawbacks.

These traits are repeated and refined in the choices of exhumers.

As for damage... They don't normally do a lot of damage. If you want to have a damage ship, remember that any turretted ship can still mount mining lasers, and with a mobile depot, you can just switch to your turret guns when trouble comes in-system.

However, both the proc and skiff get drone bonuses to damage and hp. Procs get a 50m3 dronebay and can launch a full flight of lights, while a Skiff has a 100m3 dronebay and can launch a full flight of mediums... or a Gecko. Battle Skiffs are a niche thing, but they work, if just mostly because of its Battleship Grade Tank.

No, the changes to barges and Exhumers from the old step-ladder-to-Hulk was a very positive thing. Now there's a real choice to be made in which ship to pilot, and not just the next in line.

--Gadget

Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist

Given an hour to save New Eden, how would respected scientist, Albertus Eisenstein compose his thoughts? "Fifty-five minutes to define the problem; save the galaxy in five."
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#49 - 2014-11-15 13:16:30 UTC
If you aren't going to watch local or d scan, then you're just food in lowsec.

Furthermore, that is not a failing of the game. That is a failing on your part.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#50 - 2014-11-15 13:56:40 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:

These maybe the choices you want to choose from, but look around you, skiffs, retties, macks and covs are all also being flown.


Only by those that haven't crunched the m3/s


you, like CCP did, have grossly underestimated the rettie and mack and/or grossly under estimated how many solo and small gang miners there are.

after the changes the rettie and mack were so over popular CCP had to nerf them and buff the other 4 barges. See for yourself.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Jenshae Chiroptera
#51 - 2014-11-15 14:12:37 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:

you, like CCP did, have grossly underestimated the rettie and mack and/or grossly under estimated how many solo and small gang miners there are..


AFK miners. Go forth and blow them up. I will enjoy the tears just as much.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#52 - 2014-11-15 14:36:44 UTC
yeah. bet you didnt realise that was the largest demographic of miners did you?

hence the rettie and mack.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Jenshae Chiroptera
#53 - 2014-11-15 17:39:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Daichi Yamato wrote:
yeah. bet you didnt realise that was the largest demographic of miners did you?

hence the rettie and mack.


Okay. let me qualify my posts. The ideas and such, I put forward are advocating for active miners that might also socialise together and want to put together response fleets.

Edit: We just blapped a stealth Proteus with a response fleet but all miners had to dock up. One little ship shouldn't disrupt a whole system.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Ceawlin Cobon-Han
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2014-11-15 22:30:32 UTC
There are many ways of not being ganked. The game does not need changing.

-1
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#55 - 2014-11-16 03:23:05 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
yeah. bet you didnt realise that was the largest demographic of miners did you?

hence the rettie and mack.


Okay. let me qualify my posts. The ideas and such, I put forward are advocating for active miners that might also socialise together and want to put together response fleets.


Thats beautiful but, you just said you wanted one bigger mining barge that is both tanky, high yield and probably has the largest capacity. how does that encourage active miners and/or discourage inactive miners? All it actually encourages is everyone to train for the same barge and **** the rest (especially when your saying it shouldnt be anymore expensive What?)

it is in fact the separation of roles between mining barges that has encouraged miners to operate at their keyboards (hulk with small capacity) and form your response fleets (bait procurers).

then you've said there are only two worthwhile barges to chose from. But your either out of touch as to what the common miner wants or are so self involved that you actually cannot believe (the majority of) other players have different desires and goals to you.

TL:DR

Whatever youve been selling with your posts so far has been inconsistent, out of touch and wrong. You havent posted anything that actually leads to miners socialising and forming fleets.

Barges have decent tank when you actually fit one
Giving barges roles was awesome


and back to your very first post...my very first reply: FLY A SKIFF!!

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Gay Pornstar
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2014-11-16 07:07:24 UTC
Co-opting this thread to say that this exactly is why NPC corp posting should be disallowed.

There is an idea of a Gay Pornstar; some kind of abstraction. But there is no real me: only an entity, something illusory. And though I can hide my cold gaze, and you can shake my hand and feel flesh gripping yours and maybe you can even sense our lifestyles are probably comparable... I simply am not there.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#57 - 2014-11-16 07:58:08 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
We just blapped a stealth Proteus with a response fleet but all miners had to dock up. One little ship shouldn't disrupt a whole system.
Why not?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Mateo Cobra
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#58 - 2014-11-16 16:20:13 UTC
First, to everybody, an apology about the suicide ganker/self-destruct idea because it was born out of ignorance. Would you believe the last 2 ganks I was afk for 2 minutes or less? And after other gankers are done all I see is capsules, so I did assume self-destruct=suicide as part of normal ganking. Part of my problem being a scrub pilot. I'm learning though, and I thank all of you for your time explaining stuff. I learned a lot, even after researching mining tanks and techniques, and ganking techniques.

Second, I decided last week when I found a catalyst in highsec to dump my tanked mack and my ret and stick only with my skiff for the reasons extensively mentioned in this thread. BTW, I did survive a highsec ganking attempt by 2 ships in my Mackinaw outfitted from a miner-help site. But just barely.

Third, huge thanks to all for tearing down the recommendations and explaining why they don't work. I also liked some of the alternatives mentioned and appreciate your creative input.

There still is a balance problem, IMO, because if you use your skiff tanked to 90K ehp, or if it were possible 180K ehp, it still makes you a defenseless target to be tackled and ganked by any interested party. I agree that it won't likely happen if there continue to be low-hanging fruit populating the belt.

I may look into the Prospect -- I know that cloaked ships cannot be targeted, but don't know if they can still be tackled while attempting to cloak. I'm sure the answer is out there. I will find it.

Regards to everybody,

Mateo
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#59 - 2014-11-16 18:28:21 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Mateo Cobra wrote:
There still is a balance problem, IMO, because if you use your skiff tanked to 90K ehp, or if it were possible 180K ehp, it still makes you a defenseless target to be tackled and ganked by any interested party. I agree that it won't likely happen if there continue to be low-hanging fruit populating the belt.

Bear in mind that even if you had a mining barge that could fit the same tank and weaponry of a combat cruiser you would still be subject to the threat of ganks.

Suicide gankers are just what their name implies; they are suicidal. Any weapons you do fit are meaningless to them. Their sole objective is to hit hard and fast without consideration for much else.
Even Marauder battleships can be ganked when they make themselves attractive enough.

That said...

[Skiff, Not-So-Defenseless-Miner]

Damage Control II
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Warp Scrambler II
Stasis Webifier II

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I

Hobgoblin II x5
Warrior II x5
Hammerhead II x5

Stats (with level 5 skills applied):

- around 70,000 effective hitpoints (most combat cruisers average between 30 to 50,000 ehp)
- deals about 250 damage per second (between ~140 to 180 dps with light drones)
- mines about 1000 units per minute.

- This is the evolution of the PvP-Procurer I am so fond of.
- You can trade in the warp scrambler and web for more tank if you live in high-sec.
- This fit requires a minimum of 13 Tech 1-fit suicide ganking Catalysts in a 0.5 system to kill... ~37 to kill in a 1.0 system


Mateo Cobra wrote:
I may look into the Prospect -- I know that cloaked ships cannot be targeted, but don't know if they can still be tackled while attempting to cloak. I'm sure the answer is out there. I will find it.

If someone target locks you or you are too close to an object of any kind, you cannot cloak. This means that yes, you can be pointed if you are not fast enough.

You also can't tank in a Prospect. This means that your first line of defense is running away before a threat appears.

How did you Veterans start?
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#60 - 2014-11-16 18:49:08 UTC
Mateo Cobra wrote:
There still is a balance problem, IMO, because if you use your skiff tanked to 90K ehp, or if it were possible 180K ehp, it still makes you a defenseless target to be tackled and ganked by any interested party.


Your first line of defence is being aware of your surroundings. Local, dscan and your overview can all help with this - it's absolutely impossible for us to gank you if you're already in warp when we try.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff