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A complaint about two things in wormholes.

First post
Caleb Seremshur
Naked Oiled Bodybuilders
Parasitic Legion.
#1 - 2014-11-14 07:28:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Caleb Seremshur
Ok real talk time.

First of all **** you to those who will inevitably say something about me personally for posting this. And a pre-emptive **** you to those who will come out with platitudes like "just deal with it" or "do it yourself".

Let's talk about watchlisting.

To those remarkable individuals who stumbled on to my tower I thank you for driving home to me how utterly ridiculously broken this particular thing is. Some of us here might remember me making a post about mobile depots showing your name. This is one of those things. This is one of those situations where having your name plastered on everything in space is a really ******* bad idea particularly in this scenario. My tower and the ships inside its forcefield have my name on them. The logical conlusion to draw here is that upon finding me you watchlist me. And then from that day forwards you will always know when I'm online. Now right now there is an anathema in my home hole, I saw it enter and cloak up before warping off grid. There are at LEAST 5 tengus and a loki and legion waiting for me. There is absolutely nothing I can do because I'm watch listed. I can't even pack up my tower without that fact being immediately revealed to everyone. I'm ****** basically. Now good on you for having some proactive measures in place with your scout, that's nice, but why the hell do you assume, why the hell are you even allowed to know I'm online and active? There's no handshake, it's a totally unilateral act of aggression, there's no player driven action I can perform to escape this scenario. And that's why I'm mad, not because you're running sites in my home, but because you're passively waiting for me to appear so you can gank me. Because you know I'm online. That is just utterly ******. At least coalition intel networks require people to actually be there and report hostiles and neutrals when they're found.

An argument could be created for k-space allowing these things through local networks because gates are tracking you or CONCORD knows (same with ESS things and whatever) or whatever contrived excuse you want to come up with for at least reporting that someone is in your area. This is completely different. Without D-scan you can't determine anything is there, short of launching combat probes which then allows people to know that you're there. Wormhole space. No local. Detection is based on proactive measures, defense relies on being proactive and detecting incoming hostiles, choking holes or bubbling them or otherwise d-scanning for probes or uncloaked enemies. But there is watchlisting.

Congrats, I'm just going to minimise my eve window for the rest of the day because I'm ******. I'm not going to sit here and try to do anything and let you gank me because of this flagrantly broken intel tool is letting you know that I'm still here. And after downtime I'm just not gonna log in for a couple of days. Have fun with waiting for me.

Second complaint comes back to my post ages ago about mobile depots and the fact that they reveal your name. And really any other kind of non-descript asset in space. Surely this is just a binary thing that could be switched off in the back-end by the developers. Because asking people who want to gank someone to actually be there the whole time waiting is too much, no it has to be easy. You have to be able to identify capital pilots by watchlisting their ships while they're not there or logged off, you have to be able to know instantly who might be the logistics guy for a group through similar means. All you gotta do is watchlist and then if it's worthwhile you just seed and attack while they're all offline. Because that makes any sense whatsoever. Do battle tanks in reality in the names of their drivers or even the country they belong to written on them? No. Not normally. What about combat aircraft? Well no they don't either normally because it's ********. It's just a dumb idea. Why is my name and corp even visible on my tower? If this was me in reality I wouldn't plaster my ******* name all over everything in extremely dangerous territory because maybe if I catch someone trying to steal my **** I don't want them to know it's mine and that I would be formulating a response plan. Instead you can just watchlist my whole corporation, whoever I am and know instantaneously whether I'm around or not. That's just ridiculous. It's patently ridiculous.

CCP this is the part you need to pay attention to. By now I'm calming down a bit I admit I am ******* pissed right now because I can't play without dying right now there's literally nothing I can do. And because of a programming fault. A fault in your game design and therefore programming.

You want to have things like "shattered systems" where people are going to transiently occupy presumably with either capitals for the higher class systems or mobile depots for lower class systems, or bustards or whatever that allows people to refit in space. OK. That will make being the predator so incredibly easy because a depot at the very least has a finite time span its alive. It belongs to one person. In a wormhole especially noones going to leave this behind. So you know when you find one you just click on it to see who it belongs to and if it's someone who is likely flying something work ganking you watchlist - and if they're online you know you should start scanning the hole. And if they're offline maybe you move on maybe you stay who knows you still got that massive free intel on someone because of some arbitrary *need* for every object in space to have your name on it.

This is so massive I need 2 posts for this
Caleb Seremshur
Naked Oiled Bodybuilders
Parasitic Legion.
#2 - 2014-11-14 07:29:11 UTC
Some people might just want their name on the map because of non-specific "reasons" but maybe people who are flying around solo in the most dangerous space in the whole game don't want, don't deserve that kind of crippling vulnerability. It is just totally unfair, you don't get even a courtesy notification that you were watchlisted. It's not like watchlisting is deactivated in wormhole space either (despite the fact that until Thera, clone jumping has been deactivated in wormholes because of thematical and gameplay reasons particularly the fact that if you're residing in a wormhole you're actually required to be there). And what about not being able to anchor towers in these new systems? Well that's even better! Because now as soon as someone spots your depot on d-scan, there's an actual credible reason to start scanning for it because it belongs to someone who maybe cannot leave it behind. Maybe its storing their cloak at a whopping 100m3 maybe its their only real way to refit in to that cloak. But nevermind, because you just watchlist and for the entire duration you're staying in that hole as soon as they log on you just warp to that depot and get ready for action because refitting from covops to combat is probably, most likely, going to require the use of that depot and of course you didn't sit there watching it anything because watchlisting the owner of this item told you everything you need to know for free.

If wormhole space is supposed to be hard, then it should be fair too. No watchlisting should reveal when someone is online unless they consent to allowing you to know that fact, and the permission to declare a state of being online to someone should be modifiable via the contacts library at any time. Watchlisting should also NEVER work in wormholes. Full stop. End of story. There is no overarching system in place to monitor your presence. Naturally your state of activity will be declared by appearing in corp chat because you're part of a corp. They deserve to know when you're online for reasons including security and your activity levels (for groups like Tuskers especially). But at no point should anything I don't want to have my name on it have my name on it unless I'am actually in it. At no point should anyone be able to know I'm active or even online unless I have agreed via contact adding to reveal that information.

I am seriously pissed off. I literally can't play the game right now and no amount of insipid calls for YoLo or brasso will change that, because dying uselessly is incredibly stupid especially in this game where you lose everything forever.
Aquila Sagitta
Great Blue Balls of Fire
#3 - 2014-11-14 08:02:56 UTC
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#4 - 2014-11-14 10:04:27 UTC
I have a super proposal for you:

How about we remove your name from both your tower and your tractors, but in exchange everyone can freely access them since both don't have an owner - so while you run your precious sites, I can just decloak and loot your MTU! Or drop by your POS and reship. Don't want that? Better put your name on it.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#5 - 2014-11-14 10:27:00 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
He does have an interesting point though, It is a question that is valid to ask, is the balance of the availability of intel versus the "unknown" element of wormhole space out of line?

For a hunter the intel is pure gold.
For the hunted, not so much.

I certainly see the argument for an intel update (watchlist) being delayed for a short while.
But as for removing it, that has wider effects.

It would be a very annoying to lose the use of this tool, but I can see both sides in this, worth thinking more on, we don't want to make hunting purely blundering into people though.

The point about unoccupied items delivering the owners name, being at odds with wormhole space is interesting, he has a good point. That is worth talking about as well.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Aivo Dresden
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6 - 2014-11-14 10:53:49 UTC
Never understood the watch list mechanic. I'm all for changing it (for example not have people show up until they use a gate, enter HS, ...) Make it linked to "CONCORD player tracking" or so.
King Fu Hostile
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2014-11-14 11:01:40 UTC
Watchlist is a broken and ******** metagame mechanic, but not really specifically so in wormholes.

Honestly We didnt know
#8 - 2014-11-14 11:23:46 UTC
Have to agree that watchlist really is a stupid mechanic unless mutually agreed. It would be better gameplay without it. Move the functuality to locater agents instead
Phoenix Jones
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2014-11-14 11:46:29 UTC
Long post but relevant point. We all use it for free tracking. It shouldn't work that way in this space.


Montgomery Black
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2014-11-14 11:48:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Montgomery Black
If you have ever hunted people in WH space, you would know that it can take hours to successfully track down a target and set up the kill. WH hunters need some tools to help this process, Watchlists, dscan and corp names etc from towers are some of these tools. Otherwise it makes an already challenging job more challenging to the point of being unfun. And we all play EvE to have fun.

As the prey you have multiple options available to you...

a. If you really want to evac ...check their killboard and see when they are online and then move your stuff out when they are usually offline. If you have annoyed someone so much that they have bothered to do 24/7 hole control... then go buy a better personality.

b. if your pure pve.. set up tacticals and use a cloaky hauler to go about your business as per usual. or take a covert ops, sneak out of your hole and go play in HS or what ever for the day.. Use deception.. uncloak a ship at a safe, warp it between safes and while they are hunting that.. sneak out.

c. makes some friends in WH space, fleet up, get them to cloak one WH over, derp a bait ship on the hole and then warp your friends in when they go to tackle it.

d. offer to pay a ransom to make them go away.

Its not that hard....

Watchlists may not be that lore friendly but spending 4 hours watching a hole for a "insert juicy ship" to come through and not knowing that the ship and its pilot actually cloaked and logged off in a location off dscan 2 hours ago is pretty unfun.

People are always complaining about the lack of pew in WHs. Watchlists help people find more pew and not waste their time. more pew is good. whether its the pvper vs pvper type or the suprise gank. IMHO

WH Merc Services in AU TZ. Citadel defense / offense. More details see forum post - Link

Ya Huei
Imperial Collective
#11 - 2014-11-14 12:04:37 UTC
No question that watchlisting is a broken and stupid mechanic that should be consensual and revokable.

The OP is being a crybaby about it though and should probably man up.
Jack Miton
Caldari State
#12 - 2014-11-14 12:15:40 UTC
i love people who watchlist me, it makes me happy to know theyre pointlessly tracking the logging in and out of my toons which is completely random and the only they have listed are generally afk :)

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:

Down the Pipe:

Erica Dusette
Division 13
#13 - 2014-11-14 12:23:38 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
i love people who watchlist me


Jack Miton > you be nice or you're sleeping on the couch again!

Part-Time Wormhole Pirate Full-Time Supermodel

worмнole dιary + cнaracтer вιoѕвσss

Architeuthis Rex
Caldari State
#14 - 2014-11-14 12:24:33 UTC
I have an amazing idea.

It's called watch listing.

Get an alt to add the names of the corp that are stopping you from bearing.

When they all log off, get in your faction fit Orca and move your stuff to Highsec.

Problem solved.

um yeah... who ever completely wrecked the chain map and turned it into a giant penis... don't. - Angel Riot

Yuka Mayaki
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2014-11-14 12:28:11 UTC
Montgomery Black wrote:

c. makes some friends in WH space, fleet up, get them to cloak one WH over, derp a bait ship on the hole and then warp your friends in when they go to tackle it.

Wohoooo free PewPew! Can i bring a drake or 10 to deal with these pesky peasants?

Phoenix Jones
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2014-11-14 12:32:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Phoenix Jones
Architeuthis Rex wrote:
I have an amazing idea.

It's called watch listing.

Get an alt to add the names of the corp that are stopping you from bearing.

When they all log off, get in your faction fit Orca and move your stuff to Highsec.

Problem solved.

As much as I want to jump on the troll train and as much as the op's post is Lyrics to "Cry Me A River". His point still stands.

In wormhole space, we shouldn't get notifications of when enemies log in and off.

The watchlist has two functions. Notifies us when friends log in, and notifies us when targets log in.. The friend part I wouldn't change, the enemy part in wormhole space I would take a look at.

Its very common for all of us to watchlist an entire corporation to track movements when we are in the hole, and outside of the hole. We used to do that when using the API to watch sleeper kills to know when people are awake.

I don't see this much different than that. But I see the difficulty of changing it (because we do use it to track when people log off.

Scouts in a hole, has the entire corp watchlisted. Checks watchlist, nobody on, scout logs off, jumps on alt. Alts playing, watchlist goes "ping ping ping", logs off alt, logs scout on. If we hate someone that much... yea we would do that, especially in sieges.

We use it for seeding invasion forces.

Use it to identify when people run sites.

Use it to know when people are not online.

Use it to figure out when they went LD.

It has alot of uses. We don't use all of them, but we use some in some combination to give us the intel we need.


Aladar Dangerface
It is really us
Beyond the Breach
#17 - 2014-11-14 12:43:35 UTC
This post should have been called: There are douchebags in my hole. Anyone want some t3 kills?

Bait them out.

You problem would be solved pretty easily man.

Ps. Watch list is a bit **** but there are worse things in eve than that.

I don't need twitter. I'm already following you.

Interbus Universal
#18 - 2014-11-14 13:06:42 UTC
So much text on a non-issue. Just log in after downtime and cloak up, then stay online 23/7 and do nothing. Do this for several days. If you are always online, the intel value of that fact becomes zero.


Phoenix Jones
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2014-11-14 13:54:19 UTC
Terrorfrodo wrote:
So much text on a non-issue. Just log in after downtime and cloak up, then stay online 23/7 and do nothing. Do this for several days. If you are always online, the intel value of that fact becomes zero.

Some do this but for most people (myself included) this is not a viable option (data caps, power concerns, shared computers, etc). Not everybody has a always on computer running eve (many use laptops, others travel and play, others only have specific times when they can login). Basically that is not a viable answer/counter for the typical eve player (or game player infact).


League of the Lost
#20 - 2014-11-14 14:03:56 UTC
As a solo WH'er I can understand the frustration, and if someday I'm hole camped by somebody I'll probably find it just as frustrating. But really this shouldn't be a common occurrence, at least not one that goes on very long. Most people have a home hole to get back to, unless this is personal they aren't likely to stay in your hole. That is why the watch list is super effective in a WH when you are there but almost useless when you are not.

Your first step should be to watch list them, as has been noted. Cloak up, warp around, try to get eyes on them so you can do that. Then find something else to do. Make a run to sell loot and/or get fuel. Explore your chains. Nothing is more annoying to somebody who is trying to gank you than to see you are online and not be able to find you, especially when they thought they knew where you were.

I know there have been times I've logged in looking to do something specific and it's hard to change gears when you login to find you aren't alone. One thing that could really be funny is if you find a frigate hole on a day when this is happening to you. Go through it, scout it out, find some gas or ore. Take in a Venture and mine for a bit. They might send a scout after you but if they are running T3's then they won't be coming after you or will have to run the chain home to swap ships first. I'm sure there are other good suggestions, I just can't think of them at the moment.

It's Dark In Here - The Lonely Wormhole Blog

Remember kiddies: the best ship in Eve is Friendship.


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