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Stealth Winmatar Buff
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Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#161 - 2011-12-05 15:12:06 UTC
Quote:
Would it not make more sense to bring the surrounding systems in line with the so called OP ones, rather then removing parts of said system?


It would be more work and harder. Nerfing or buffing the outliers is simpler. Avoiding unpopular nerfing in favor of buffing the weak ends in performance creep - player ships keep getting better and better which eventually creates other problems.
Kance Tzu
Lone Star Investments
#162 - 2011-12-05 17:48:58 UTC
Alexa Coates wrote:

stop calling them winmatar. Thats just damn childish.


Winmatar! Winmatar! Winmatar!

Neener neener neener! =oP
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#163 - 2011-12-05 19:38:34 UTC
Ruah Piskonit wrote:
Then that is what you should be arguing for in terms of balance imo. But my point still stands - if turrets are balanced - then the ships need to be too. The key to the reason for lazors not competing with blasters is tracking. Getting 'under' the guns is to beat the tracking of pulse lazors.


I've only had issues with pulse tracking when trying to shoot a full shipclass lower than my turrets are meant for. I.e. frigs with HPLs or HACs with MPLs. If you've experienced something different it's probably because you fly frigs more than I do.

Mfume Apocal wrote:

These setups fall under 'specilized' or 'spacific'. Amarr BBs have always been popular in fleet - high range, decent alpha, fantastic dps, good tank, and lag immuine (no reload). . .


Specialized and specific? It's literally the most common Amarr BS fit out there.

Quote:
So I take it you feel that Amarr are the best race in eve, but can you at least see where I (and others) am/are coming from?


Not the best race (too subjective), but their turrets already have a comfortable margin of superiority over other turrets already. I'd probably have more sympathy for the hull issues if Amarr didn't have their own hull advantages which made them hands-down better at seriousface fights.
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#164 - 2011-12-06 02:14:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Roosterton
IMO, the hybrid balances are a good start. What remains to be balanced is more about individual ships rather than blanket nerfs or blanket buffs, as that will just inevitably make certain things OP/underpowered.

Basically:

-Clean up the whole cruiser class. Re-working the tier system so that everything is the level of the Rupture is probably the best way to do this.
*Give lower tier cruisers more slots and fitting space

-Slight buff to the Myrmidon to bring it in line with the other three tier 2 BC's.
*Move a high slot to a 7th low? Pirate

-Moderate buff to the Astarte/Nighthawk to bring in line with the Sleip/Abso.
*Swap Nighthawk bonuses to apply to HAMs as well, give it better powergrid.
*Swap armor rep bonus on the Astarte for an armor resist bonus, or something which supports buffer tanking?

-Re-work the role of the Angel Cartel line up into something which doesn't obsolete many Minmatar ships - as it stands, there's little reason to use a Firetail over a Dramiel, a Vaga over a Cyna, or a Flempest over a Mach. This isn't a problem with other races; there are still reasons to use a Slicer over a Cruor or Succubus, for example.
*Make Angel Cartel ships the active shield tanking pirate race rather than the kiting pirate race? Or maybe the drone kiting race rather than the AC kiting race. (They do require Gallente skills, after all.)

-More useful or flexible hybrid ammo types; give us some which do mostly thermal and some which do mostly kinetic, for example. Lasers already have some variation in this, but it's mostly moot since people only ever use MF or Scorch, so perhaps adding some more variation within MF or Scorch range could also be considered.

-Do something to the Brutix. Active armor + blasters + 5 lows still just isn't that good. Straight

However, blanket nerfing the ENTIRE Minmatar lineup for the sake of a few superior ships (Machs, Cynabals, and Drams) is unnecessary.
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#165 - 2011-12-06 02:33:44 UTC
Roosterton wrote:


However, blanket nerfing the ENTIRE Minmatar lineup for the sake of a few superior ships (Machs, Cynabals, and Drams) is unnecessary.

Nerfing a Mach for the sake of Tracking Enhancers is unnecessary, too. I'd say that at least a half of its OP-factor goes to TEs.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#166 - 2011-12-06 03:30:04 UTC
Fon Revedhort wrote:
Roosterton wrote:


However, blanket nerfing the ENTIRE Minmatar lineup for the sake of a few superior ships (Machs, Cynabals, and Drams) is unnecessary.

Nerfing a Mach for the sake of Tracking Enhancers is unnecessary, too. I'd say that at least a half of its OP-factor goes to TEs.


Straight

Tracking enhancers affect lasers just as well as AC's. Tracking computers are even better, and most kiting minmatar ships don't have the free midslots to fit them.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#167 - 2011-12-06 08:49:30 UTC
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Ruah Piskonit wrote:
Then that is what you should be arguing for in terms of balance imo. But my point still stands - if turrets are balanced - then the ships need to be too. The key to the reason for lazors not competing with blasters is tracking. Getting 'under' the guns is to beat the tracking of pulse lazors.


I've only had issues with pulse tracking when trying to shoot a full shipclass lower than my turrets are meant for. I.e. frigs with HPLs or HACs with MPLs. If you've experienced something different it's probably because you fly frigs more than I do.

Mfume Apocal wrote:

These setups fall under 'specilized' or 'spacific'. Amarr BBs have always been popular in fleet - high range, decent alpha, fantastic dps, good tank, and lag immuine (no reload). . .


Specialized and specific? It's literally the most common Amarr BS fit out there.

Quote:
So I take it you feel that Amarr are the best race in eve, but can you at least see where I (and others) am/are coming from?


Not the best race (too subjective), but their turrets already have a comfortable margin of superiority over other turrets already. I'd probably have more sympathy for the hull issues if Amarr didn't have their own hull advantages which made them hands-down better at seriousface fights.


Why should anybody listen to you? You dont even know what hail ammo does , and you fly matar ships...
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#168 - 2011-12-06 11:06:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Mfume Apocal
Naomi Knight wrote:
Why should anybody listen to you? You dont even know what hail ammo does , and you fly matar ships...


It's pretty rare I fly autocannon ships, because they are pretty ******* bad for the kind of stuff I mainly do. Hail had it's falloff penalty set to 25% when I'd last checked v0v. And I think removing it entirely is ********. Didn't think CCP would be that silly but w/e, not my company!

Also: if you're going to throw the experience card, you might want to have more than 20 kills in a solid six months.
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#169 - 2011-12-06 14:53:12 UTC
Roosterton wrote:
Fon Revedhort wrote:
Roosterton wrote:


However, blanket nerfing the ENTIRE Minmatar lineup for the sake of a few superior ships (Machs, Cynabals, and Drams) is unnecessary.

Nerfing a Mach for the sake of Tracking Enhancers is unnecessary, too. I'd say that at least a half of its OP-factor goes to TEs.


Straight

Tracking enhancers affect lasers just as well as AC's. Tracking computers are even better, and most kiting minmatar ships don't have the free midslots to fit them.

No, they don't. Literally nothing has changed for lasers when TE's were given +30% falloff bonus. While AC got severely boosted.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#170 - 2011-12-06 15:07:25 UTC
Fon Revedhort wrote:
Roosterton wrote:
Fon Revedhort wrote:
Roosterton wrote:


However, blanket nerfing the ENTIRE Minmatar lineup for the sake of a few superior ships (Machs, Cynabals, and Drams) is unnecessary.

Nerfing a Mach for the sake of Tracking Enhancers is unnecessary, too. I'd say that at least a half of its OP-factor goes to TEs.


Straight

Tracking enhancers affect lasers just as well as AC's. Tracking computers are even better, and most kiting minmatar ships don't have the free midslots to fit them.

No, they don't. Literally nothing has changed for lasers when TE's were given +30% falloff bonus. While AC got severely boosted.


You're right, instead lasers get a +15% optimal bonus. Optimal is massively more useful than falloff.

Or you could, you know, use a tracking computer, which more minmatar ships don't have the privilege of doing? Same optimal/falloff bonus, but you get to switch it with tracking.
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#171 - 2011-12-06 15:21:24 UTC
I'm sorry, but advocating for TEs being fine just results in you looking clueless.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#172 - 2011-12-06 17:18:08 UTC
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
Quote:
stop calling them winmatar. Thats just damn childish.

'HURR I R BETTER DAN U CUZ I FLY RUST LOLOLOLOL'


Nice job completely missing the point, idiot.
The term "Winmatar" refers to how hilariously OP the race as a whole is.

Still, great stuff, yet another buff to the best weapon system in the game. I guess CCP just couldn't have a hybrid buff without giving the projectile packing pwnmobiles some extra love.


It comes from the nubs who think that the Dram, Cyn, and Mach are Minmatar ships for the most part TBPFH.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#173 - 2011-12-06 17:50:22 UTC
Fon Revedhort wrote:
I'm sorry, but advocating for TEs being fine just results in you looking clueless.


There are these things called "facts." Using them when you argue instead of factlessly calling someone clueless tends to make your terrible argument look a little better.
Niko Takahashi
Yoshitomi Group
#174 - 2011-12-07 22:21:22 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Zeomebuch Nova wrote:

Stabber


Really? The stabber? /facepalm

On to a more serious note:
The Hybrid changes stand to change several of these rankings. For example the difference between the Rupture and Vexor/Thorax is actually fairly low and we may actually see them simply reverse positions as they did immediately after the projectile boost. The Thrasher may do the same - there's lots of heavy breathing on vent when people talk about 500 DPS Catalysts.

I think its amusing that you point out the Cyclone because in a lot of ways the Cyclone is already not the best Tier 1 BC. The Ferox is about as good at bait tanking while the Brutix is actually a better damage dealer (and getting better tonight). I won't be really surprised to hear that both of these ships have become much more popular at the given role than the Cyclone.

The Hurricane comparison is just ridiculous because the Harbinger and Drake are both better at straight up brawling. That's not to say that the Hurricane can't run away - because it can - but that doesn't make it better at really fighting. The same kind of thing goes for the Vaga and Muninn vs the Zealot. The Zealot is just better on the whole - as we might expect..

I don't mean to say that there aren't Minnie ships that are hands down the best - for example I would say that the Sleip, Claymore, and Sabre are the best. I'm also convinced that your concerns about the Mach and Cyanabal are somewhat well founded - though I don't personally believe its projectiles that push them over the top.

Anyway - if we see a Minnie/projectile nerf, we see it. I don't really have a horse in the race except requesting that we nerf the appropriate stats for the right reasons. :)

-Liang

Ed: Rereading Cambarus' post makes me realize you were theoretically just comparing Amarr and Minmatar. There are several Amarr ships which are just simply garbage - but none of them are really in positions of concern. For example, the Omen and Retribution are both terrible but it doesn't matter because nobody does anything with those ship classes anyway.


Just to add some comments

Drone based gallente ships were OK before the buff now they will really kick ass.
My gripe with minmatar is not so with the weapons them self but with the fitting posible you can stuff on their ships almost anything you imagine.

Try to fit for example 2 heavy neuts 6 of the siege launchers MWD and cap booster on the raven :)
Vanessa Vale
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#175 - 2011-12-15 02:22:46 UTC
As I was reading I had to check the thread 3 times to be sure it wasn't something from a couple years ago.

Exactly the same crappiness with exactly the same minmatar ships, same arguments about them being win, same "balance" style of letting them be as crappiest as possible but still be able to sort of run away.

I remember shortly before I left that I was running around finding people and realizing most of the time the best outcome would be for me to be able to run away if I dared to engage, while their worst would be for me to run away. No, it wasn't fun and I Ieft.

But its ok. I'll just continue to train my amarr skills as I reminisce about better times where minmatar ships were feared rather than considered overpowered because they grief people when they run away unable to kill yet another ship. Maybe this time I'll hold my sub long enough to forget my beloved minmatar.