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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Addition to jump drive changes.

Author
Anope
Goryn Clade
#1 - 2014-11-11 20:23:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Anope
To begin with I love the new changes to jump drive mechanics. The nerf to power projection and being able to move an armada of supers across the map in minutes had to be dealt with. Then I looked at how this change would effect me. Long before Phoebe hit I was ordering as many capitals as my builder could handle before the patch simply based on the fact that after the patch hit I would no longer have a reasonable way to move capital assets if they were over a region away. Carriers I may do due to there ability to defend themselves quite well and being relatively cheap. The fact remained however that I simply didn't want to be bothered to go through so much effort to move a ship. If they were allowed in highsec I would have no complaint I would happily move them gate to gate through highsec. But I came up with an alternate solution. What if capitals possessed a secondary jump drive mechanic? for all intents and purposes we will just call it a "slip stream jump" basically when you right click on your capacitor you would now instead of have just the "jump to" option you would also have "slip stream jump to" under it.
Basically this option would allow you to jump a much larger distance lets say 15lyr just to put a number to the idea. Using this option would give you a large jump reactivation timer lets say 24hr's accompanied by a large amount of fatigue. It could also render your ability to use offensive mods, say drones and weapon systems due to the power it took to use the jump drive for say 15 minutes. Not sure if this is necessary but a good option to make sure the mechanic isn't just being used to project power instantly again. Basically I think we need an option just for moving capitals to stage them where we want them that's not as tedious as it is now. Like I said the recent changes are great but I still think they need a little work. The current changes fix the problem of large groups of supers being thrown across the map straight into a battle but they hurt the little guys who want a super or titan but don't possess the power to form a protective fleet to move one. Feedback below would be much appreciated and as always trolls welcome.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2014-11-11 20:30:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Antillie Sa'Kan
Anope wrote:
Basically I think we need an option just for moving capitals to stage them where we want them that's not as tedious as it is now. Like I said the recent changes are great...

These two statements are at odds with each other. The entire point of the changes is to prevent people from easily moving capitals into staging positions quickly.

If you can't put together the type of fleet needed to protect a super or titan while it travels maybe you shouldn't own one, or just keep it in your home area.
Anope
Goryn Clade
#3 - 2014-11-11 20:33:36 UTC
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
Anope wrote:
Basically I think we need an option just for moving capitals to stage them where we want them that's not as tedious as it is now. Like I said the recent changes are great...

These two statements are at odds with each other. The entire point of the changes is to prevent people from easily moving capitals into staging positions quickly.



I do think they are great..... However I don't think they are perfect. It was an excellent idea to fix what it was meant to fix but created new problems, and I think this is a viable solution to the problem I believe needs to be addressed.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2014-11-11 20:41:59 UTC
Anope wrote:
I do think they are great..... However I don't think they are perfect. It was an excellent idea to fix what it was meant to fix but created new problems, and I think this is a viable solution to the problem I believe needs to be addressed.

As far as I can tell the problem is that you can't quickly move your stuff around in a carrier. I don't see how this is a problem at all. Get a jump freighter. Or stop moving around so much.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5 - 2014-11-11 20:42:33 UTC
Anope wrote:
To begin with I love the new changes to jump drive mechanics. The nerf to power projection and being able to move an armada of supers across the map in minutes had to be dealt with. Then I looked at how this change would effect me. Long before Phoebe hit I was ordering as many capitals as my builder could handle before the patch simply based on the fact that after the patch hit I would no longer have a reasonable way to move capital assets if they were over a region away. Carriers I may do due to there ability to defend themselves quite well and being relatively cheap. The fact remained however that I simply didn't want to be bothered to go through so much effort to move a ship. If they were allowed in highsec I would have no complaint I would happily move them gate to gate through highsec. But I came up with an alternate solution. What if capitals possessed a secondary jump drive mechanic? for all intents and purposes we will just call it a "slip stream jump" basically when you right click on your capacitor you would now instead of have just the "jump to" option you would also have "slip stream jump to" under it.
Basically this option would allow you to jump a much larger distance lets say 15lyr just to put a number to the idea. Using this option would give you a large jump reactivation timer lets say 24hr's accompanied by a large amount of fatigue. It could also render your ability to use offensive mods, say drones and weapon systems due to the power it took to use the jump drive for say 15 minutes. Not sure if this is necessary but a good option to make sure the mechanic isn't just being used to project power instantly again. Basically I think we need an option just for moving capitals to stage them where we want them that's not as tedious as it is now. Like I said the recent changes are great but I still think they need a little work. The current changes fix the problem of large groups of supers being thrown across the map straight into a battle but they hurt the little guys who want a super or titan but don't possess the power to form a protective fleet to move one. Feedback below would be much appreciated and as always trolls welcome.


Why does the little guy has to move his cap ship so damn far from his starting point that fast anyway? It's not like you have to defend assets there since you are only a little guy and if it is to attack, then maybe you could target closer enemies.
Anope
Goryn Clade
#6 - 2014-11-11 23:00:15 UTC
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
Anope wrote:
I do think they are great..... However I don't think they are perfect. It was an excellent idea to fix what it was meant to fix but created new problems, and I think this is a viable solution to the problem I believe needs to be addressed.

As far as I can tell the problem is that you can't quickly move your stuff around in a carrier. I don't see how this is a problem at all. Get a jump freighter. Or stop moving around so much.



First off I own a jump freighter. I don't want to scrap expensive T2 rigs every time I wanna move ships. This is one of the problems. Second I own a super carrier and when it dies I will probably never replace it just based on the fact that I would have to move another one into position and I don't wanna risk moving around a 25 bil ship that I have to jump through regional gates. sure I could do it but Its gonna take days to move it.... Just to move it. I don't wanna spend countless hours just moving things. and I'm sure lots of others don't want to either. Also saying don't move around is just dumb. Content just doesn't stay exactly where you want it 24/7. If you want good PvP content you gotta go to conflict zones.
Anope
Goryn Clade
#7 - 2014-11-11 23:03:34 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Anope wrote:
To begin with I love the new changes to jump drive mechanics. The nerf to power projection and being able to move an armada of supers across the map in minutes had to be dealt with. Then I looked at how this change would effect me. Long before Phoebe hit I was ordering as many capitals as my builder could handle before the patch simply based on the fact that after the patch hit I would no longer have a reasonable way to move capital assets if they were over a region away. Carriers I may do due to there ability to defend themselves quite well and being relatively cheap. The fact remained however that I simply didn't want to be bothered to go through so much effort to move a ship. If they were allowed in highsec I would have no complaint I would happily move them gate to gate through highsec. But I came up with an alternate solution. What if capitals possessed a secondary jump drive mechanic? for all intents and purposes we will just call it a "slip stream jump" basically when you right click on your capacitor you would now instead of have just the "jump to" option you would also have "slip stream jump to" under it.
Basically this option would allow you to jump a much larger distance lets say 15lyr just to put a number to the idea. Using this option would give you a large jump reactivation timer lets say 24hr's accompanied by a large amount of fatigue. It could also render your ability to use offensive mods, say drones and weapon systems due to the power it took to use the jump drive for say 15 minutes. Not sure if this is necessary but a good option to make sure the mechanic isn't just being used to project power instantly again. Basically I think we need an option just for moving capitals to stage them where we want them that's not as tedious as it is now. Like I said the recent changes are great but I still think they need a little work. The current changes fix the problem of large groups of supers being thrown across the map straight into a battle but they hurt the little guys who want a super or titan but don't possess the power to form a protective fleet to move one. Feedback below would be much appreciated and as always trolls welcome.


Why does the little guy has to move his cap ship so damn far from his starting point that fast anyway? It's not like you have to defend assets there since you are only a little guy and if it is to attack, then maybe you could target closer enemies.



If your moving to a new conflict area for better content for 1. Also If you are buying a Super Carrier or Titan that aren't exactly always available where you are. They tend to need to be moved a few jumps.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#8 - 2014-11-11 23:29:22 UTC
The whole point behind the jump fatigue changes is that you are not supposed to quickly move between regions...

... not without paying a HUGE penalty.

Being able to move across the map every 24 hours with only a 15 minute "downtime" penalty will just introduce a slower version of the old status quo.
Anope
Goryn Clade
#9 - 2014-11-12 00:04:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Anope
ShahFluffers wrote:
The whole point behind the jump fatigue changes is that you are not supposed to quickly move between regions...

... not without paying a HUGE penalty.

Being able to move across the map every 24 hours with only a 15 minute "downtime" penalty will just introduce a slower version of the old status quo.



15 minutes to being able to use weapon systems I said. I gave 24 hr jump timer and a sizable fatigue as an example. I fully agree the penalty should be large. All the numbers I gave were just a general idea. Also I don't think it should have a massive range to project you across the map. The idea is to help you move logistically without giving you the ability to project an armada right onto the battlefield. Hence the 15 minute weapon and drone timer. You could even go as far as not allowing any module activation.

Thank you for your feedback
Jur Tissant
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2014-11-12 01:23:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Jur Tissant
Capital ships are supposed to have support. If you're worried about moving your capital around because it'll get blown up then have your friends scout/guard.

CCP is on a good course with recent changes and I'd hate to see them backtrack.
Anope
Goryn Clade
#11 - 2014-11-12 01:35:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Anope
Jur Tissant wrote:
Capital ships are supposed to have support. If you're worried about moving your capital around because it'll get blown up then have your friends scout/guard.

CCP is on a good course with recent changes and I'd hate to see them backtrack.



Support in combat sure. I don't think it would be a backtrack as long as penalties were severe enough keep in mind I'm suggesting around old carrier range with a 24hr jump cool down plus fatigue and a no weapons delay. I'm not talking about the ability to cross the map. I wouldn't consider it a backtrack really. You will still have the projection nerf. Its not like people will be shooting across the map in minutes with a change like this it would take literally days to cross the map using this method.

Thanks for reply
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2014-11-12 01:52:24 UTC
Anope wrote:
First off I own a jump freighter. I don't want to scrap expensive T2 rigs every time I wanna move ships. This is one of the problems. Second I own a super carrier and when it dies I will probably never replace it just based on the fact that I would have to move another one into position and I don't wanna risk moving around a 25 bil ship that I have to jump through regional gates. sure I could do it but Its gonna take days to move it.... Just to move it. I don't wanna spend countless hours just moving things. and I'm sure lots of others don't want to either. Also saying don't move around is just dumb. Content just doesn't stay exactly where you want it 24/7. If you want good PvP content you gotta go to conflict zones.

Then pay for new T2 rigs, use T1, or make some content near where you are. Try shooting your neighbors. You are not supposed to be able to move between regions easily with capital ships. Pick an area and live there. Adapt or unsub.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2014-11-12 01:54:11 UTC
Anope wrote:
The idea is to help you move logistically...

This is the one thing capitals should never ever be allowed to do easily.
Anope
Goryn Clade
#14 - 2014-11-12 06:01:14 UTC
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
Anope wrote:
First off I own a jump freighter. I don't want to scrap expensive T2 rigs every time I wanna move ships. This is one of the problems. Second I own a super carrier and when it dies I will probably never replace it just based on the fact that I would have to move another one into position and I don't wanna risk moving around a 25 bil ship that I have to jump through regional gates. sure I could do it but Its gonna take days to move it.... Just to move it. I don't wanna spend countless hours just moving things. and I'm sure lots of others don't want to either. Also saying don't move around is just dumb. Content just doesn't stay exactly where you want it 24/7. If you want good PvP content you gotta go to conflict zones.

Then pay for new T2 rigs, use T1, or make some content near where you are. Try shooting your neighbors. You are not supposed to be able to move between regions easily with capital ships. Pick an area and live there. Adapt or unsub.



Please add constructive feedback instead of "just create content" or "unsub". It adds nothing to the debate.
Anope
Goryn Clade
#15 - 2014-11-12 06:11:37 UTC
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
Anope wrote:
The idea is to help you move logistically...

This is the one thing capitals should never ever be allowed to do easily.


First of all I doubt my idea would make moving a capital "easy". "Safer".... Yes...."Easily" hardly. If anything it would make it far more lengthy of a process. The idea of the Jump drive nerf was to nerf power projection onto the battlefield and to stop you from traversing the map in minutes. This idea certainly doesn't allow you to do either of those things. If you traveled across the map using this method It would take far longer. And your not gonna drop 100 supers into a battle if they cant jump again for a day and have zero offensive capabilities. Its designed to help you still move a relatively short distance at a massive penalty. Don't forget my suggestion is slightly over old carrier range... Its really not that far.
Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
#16 - 2014-11-12 06:14:31 UTC
Escort ships have been used since navies began.
Capital ships, just like in real life, need escorts. This is intentional.
Use them... in or out of battle.
Using escorts as screens can help you avoid battles that you aren't willing to engage in at that time.

So, No, just adapt to the new strategic perview.
Maybe work on bringing the fights to you.
Got neighbors? Kick them in the teeth rather than travelling to Earth and back for a fight.

--Gadget

Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist

Given an hour to save New Eden, how would respected scientist, Albertus Eisenstein compose his thoughts? "Fifty-five minutes to define the problem; save the galaxy in five."

Anope
Goryn Clade
#17 - 2014-11-12 06:27:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Anope
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:
Escort ships have been used since navies began.
Capital ships, just like in real life, need escorts. This is intentional.
Use them... in or out of battle.
Using escorts as screens can help you avoid battles that you aren't willing to engage in at that time.

So, No, just adapt to the new strategic perview.
Maybe work on bringing the fights to you.
Got neighbors? Kick them in the teeth rather than travelling to Earth and back for a fight.

--Gadget



The idea isn't about getting fights. Why does everyone assume this has to do with just getting fights? And not everyone has access to a fleet to escort them. We all don't live in the land of TIDI where we have hundreds to escort us around.
Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
#18 - 2014-11-12 07:02:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Gadget Helmsdottir
Anope wrote:


The idea isn't about getting fights. Why does everyone assume this has to do with just getting fights? And not everyone has access to a fleet to escort them. We all don't live in the land of TIDI where we have hundreds to escort us around.


Quote:
Basically I think we need an option just for moving capitals to stage them where we want them that's not as tedious as it is now.


Staging for what?

A parade perhaps?

You tell us why you want to circumvent the new mechanics if not to bring said capital to a battle or potential battle.

If a capital pilot doesn't have access to a scout pilot, whether an alt, friend, corpmate, or alliance buddy, then perhaps this pilot should just wait a bit. The point is to make it difficult to power project quickly.

If the individual pilot really insists on soloing the precious cap to the staging point, then they can just use a fast frigate of some sort and make safe spots for the cap to rest while the pilot gets his jump-rest. Cloaks will help.

Either way, it will take more time than it used to take to stage the ship. That is Intentional.

--Gadget

Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist

Given an hour to save New Eden, how would respected scientist, Albertus Eisenstein compose his thoughts? "Fifty-five minutes to define the problem; save the galaxy in five."

Anope
Goryn Clade
#19 - 2014-11-12 07:24:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Anope
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:
Anope wrote:


The idea isn't about getting fights. Why does everyone assume this has to do with just getting fights? And not everyone has access to a fleet to escort them. We all don't live in the land of TIDI where we have hundreds to escort us around.


Quote:
Basically I think we need an option just for moving capitals to stage them where we want them that's not as tedious as it is now.


Staging for what?

A parade perhaps?

You tell us why you want to circumvent the new mechanics if not to bring said capital to a battle or potential battle.

If a capital pilot doesn't have access to a scout pilot, whether an alt, friend, corpmate, or alliance buddy, then perhaps this pilot should just wait a bit. The point is to make it difficult to power project quickly.

If the individual pilot really insists on soloing the precious cap to the staging point, then they can just use a fast frigate of some sort and make safe spots for the cap to rest while the pilot gets his jump-rest. Cloaks will help.

Either way, it will take more time than it used to take to stage the ship. That is Intentional.

--Gadget




Staging them where you live maybe. I don't know if you are aware of this but capitals and supers typically aren't built where you live. And usually you want your ships where you live. People also use ships for PvE content surely you know about this?

This option doesn't make it any easier to power project.

This doesn't change the fact that you have to use safe spots with cloaks one bit.