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[Rhea] Introducing the Bowhead

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Dave Stark
#501 - 2014-11-11 15:02:40 UTC
S'No Flake wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
S'No Flake wrote:
It carries about 4 times more than Oraca so, it needs 4 times more EHP to keep EHP/cargo ratio Evil


no it doesn't.

people need to be less dumb.
just because you have x cargo doesn't mean you need to fill all the space.

ehp/cargo ratio is about as useful and relevant as the slugs/snowflakes ratio of my garden.


That was sarcasm :P

Most people flying freighters have a web alt (which can fail on regional gates) so, i don't see the point of using this ship if you are
an incursion runner flying your logi/DPS ships to a new spawn or your DPS/Sniper ships. You can get much more buffer from your individual ships with travel fit and allows you to use mwd+cloak and you can use ASB+AAR.

If you have to move more than 2 ships, this new freighter it's pretty much useless as you will still have to do 2 runs because of how expensive your cargo is: 2 pirate hulls + 2 logi ships will go way over 2bil mark (without fittings) hence, 2 trips.

I might be wrong but i don't see any case where this ships is better for anyone with 2 characters.
And if you have only one character only, the amount you will move at one time to be somehow gank safe will make it useless and you are better using an orca.



*shrug* so you might have to make a few choices.

seems fine to me.
S'No Flake
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#502 - 2014-11-11 15:03:18 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Anonymous Forumposter wrote:
Zan Shiro wrote:
take it these people have not seen how some 0.0 moves moon goo on bridged ops either.


For the home audience.....you support this with logistics. Good crews I have seen at least on the first empire interface have the freighters land into a group of logistics. The moon goo and other item freighters are targetted and reps blasted on them even if shots not even fired. One way to avoid a fight is to make it clear the fight not even worth starting A charon you know has basic support in abundance one example of how to implement this. They then get escorted to sale point to the same or lesser extent.

Moral of this story....if the cargo is worth that much to you, protect it. Now will come the well I don't wan't/have logi's on call for this. Well then travel fit your stuff and move it one at a time. CCP gave people what they wanted. But not all of it. A mobile monster fortress was not going to be in the cards. Take what you get and run with it really.


All of that is well and good for moon goo and other goods because you can't hop into your moon goo and fly it around. Needing three pilots to move 3 battleships nullifies any reason for this ship to exist. The whole point of this ship existing is to benefit the pilots flying them. In it's current form needing to be babysat by the same number of pilots as ships you're moving or more, makes the ship less appealing than the Nestor. CCP Spent money on this ship. CCP spent money you paid them on this ship. CCP Spent money on this that is now not available to spend on other things. Do you want your money to matter? Or just end up in a another terrible neglected ship?

TL;DR Your argument of "Use more pilots to protect it" negates any benefit of this ship whatsoever. So in fact, your argument is in FAVOR of a buff, not against it, despite your intentions.


i doubt it takes 90 ships to protect it though, so it's still useful for moving harpies....


And what is the purpose of moving 90 harpies trough HS? :)
This ship is intended for HS use as per CCP description Cool
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#503 - 2014-11-11 15:05:01 UTC
S'No Flake wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Anonymous Forumposter wrote:
Zan Shiro wrote:
take it these people have not seen how some 0.0 moves moon goo on bridged ops either.


For the home audience.....you support this with logistics. Good crews I have seen at least on the first empire interface have the freighters land into a group of logistics. The moon goo and other item freighters are targetted and reps blasted on them even if shots not even fired. One way to avoid a fight is to make it clear the fight not even worth starting A charon you know has basic support in abundance one example of how to implement this. They then get escorted to sale point to the same or lesser extent.

Moral of this story....if the cargo is worth that much to you, protect it. Now will come the well I don't wan't/have logi's on call for this. Well then travel fit your stuff and move it one at a time. CCP gave people what they wanted. But not all of it. A mobile monster fortress was not going to be in the cards. Take what you get and run with it really.


All of that is well and good for moon goo and other goods because you can't hop into your moon goo and fly it around. Needing three pilots to move 3 battleships nullifies any reason for this ship to exist. The whole point of this ship existing is to benefit the pilots flying them. In it's current form needing to be babysat by the same number of pilots as ships you're moving or more, makes the ship less appealing than the Nestor. CCP Spent money on this ship. CCP spent money you paid them on this ship. CCP Spent money on this that is now not available to spend on other things. Do you want your money to matter? Or just end up in a another terrible neglected ship?

TL;DR Your argument of "Use more pilots to protect it" negates any benefit of this ship whatsoever. So in fact, your argument is in FAVOR of a buff, not against it, despite your intentions.


i doubt it takes 90 ships to protect it though, so it's still useful for moving harpies....


And what is the purpose of moving 90 harpies trough HS? :)
This ship is intended for HS use as per CCP description Cool


We all know its the null powerblocks that will be making heavy use of these ships, not the bears of highsec.
S'No Flake
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#504 - 2014-11-11 15:05:06 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
S'No Flake wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Use a blockade runner to move your fittings, use the Bowhead to move the rigged & insured hulls. ALSO ENSURE YOU DON'T AUTOPILOT THROUGH UEDAMA, NIARJA, DELTOLE or other 0.5 choke points.

Perhaps consider running alongside the hauler with logistics cruisers to ensure that would-be gankers have to focus on alpha damage rather than 30s worth of shooting.

And let's see where it stands after a couple of months, perhaps when CCP sees nobody using it they will try buffing it to the point that people feel safe carrying three Nightmare hulls in one hauler.


It doesn't matter if you autopilot or not. You will still be bumped out of alignment in the 8..10s MWD cycle.
And a 'choke point' it's well... a choke point. You can't avoid them unless you want to spend the next 3 days moving stuff while traveling 100+ jumps.


If you feel this way then bring a fleet of your own for protection.


And what is the point of bringing a fleet to escort this ship when in that case you can just more all the ships individually with much more EHP maybe fitting some links in that fleet making them even safer?

Wouldn't make the point of introducing this ship ... well, useless?
Dave Stark
#505 - 2014-11-11 15:07:15 UTC
S'No Flake wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
S'No Flake wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Use a blockade runner to move your fittings, use the Bowhead to move the rigged & insured hulls. ALSO ENSURE YOU DON'T AUTOPILOT THROUGH UEDAMA, NIARJA, DELTOLE or other 0.5 choke points.

Perhaps consider running alongside the hauler with logistics cruisers to ensure that would-be gankers have to focus on alpha damage rather than 30s worth of shooting.

And let's see where it stands after a couple of months, perhaps when CCP sees nobody using it they will try buffing it to the point that people feel safe carrying three Nightmare hulls in one hauler.


It doesn't matter if you autopilot or not. You will still be bumped out of alignment in the 8..10s MWD cycle.
And a 'choke point' it's well... a choke point. You can't avoid them unless you want to spend the next 3 days moving stuff while traveling 100+ jumps.


If you feel this way then bring a fleet of your own for protection.


And what is the point of bringing a fleet to escort this ship when in that case you can just more all the ships individually with much more EHP maybe fitting some links in that fleet making them even safer?

Wouldn't make the point of introducing this ship ... well, useless?


ever thought it's designed for low value high volumes of ships rather than low volume high value?

hint hint; people shouldn't stuff these full of shiny things people want to gank you for, like every other freighter!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#506 - 2014-11-11 15:12:29 UTC
Quote:


And what is the point of bringing a fleet to escort this ship when in that case you can just more all the ships individually with much more EHP maybe fitting some links in that fleet making them even safer?

Wouldn't make the point of introducing this ship ... well, useless?


Because when we deploy we only bring one fleet worth of shipsRoll

I can now bring three megathrons on deployments in one trip. Or an entire replacement harpy/bomber fleet in just one ship. No more scrapping of rigs when we redeploy and no more begging for carrier space.
S'No Flake
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#507 - 2014-11-11 15:12:35 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
S'No Flake wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
S'No Flake wrote:
It carries about 4 times more than Oraca so, it needs 4 times more EHP to keep EHP/cargo ratio Evil


no it doesn't.

people need to be less dumb.
just because you have x cargo doesn't mean you need to fill all the space.

ehp/cargo ratio is about as useful and relevant as the slugs/snowflakes ratio of my garden.


That was sarcasm :P

Most people flying freighters have a web alt (which can fail on regional gates) so, i don't see the point of using this ship if you are
an incursion runner flying your logi/DPS ships to a new spawn or your DPS/Sniper ships. You can get much more buffer from your individual ships with travel fit and allows you to use mwd+cloak and you can use ASB+AAR.

If you have to move more than 2 ships, this new freighter it's pretty much useless as you will still have to do 2 runs because of how expensive your cargo is: 2 pirate hulls + 2 logi ships will go way over 2bil mark (without fittings) hence, 2 trips.

I might be wrong but i don't see any case where this ships is better for anyone with 2 characters.
And if you have only one character only, the amount you will move at one time to be somehow gank safe will make it useless and you are better using an orca.



*shrug* so you might have to make a few choices.

seems fine to me.


There is no choice seriously.
If you use one char, an Orca it's better if the cost of the stuff you move it's less than 1bil. Much more tank for the isk you move.
If you use 2 chars you are better if you fly the ships separately instead of flying the bowhead because you get better tank + cloak/mwd.

It seems to have no point of flying this in HS. Yes, the example of moving 90 harpies, escorted trough low or 0.0 it's cool but, it's not the role CCP wants for this ship :)
S'No Flake
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#508 - 2014-11-11 15:14:25 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
S'No Flake wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
S'No Flake wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Use a blockade runner to move your fittings, use the Bowhead to move the rigged & insured hulls. ALSO ENSURE YOU DON'T AUTOPILOT THROUGH UEDAMA, NIARJA, DELTOLE or other 0.5 choke points.

Perhaps consider running alongside the hauler with logistics cruisers to ensure that would-be gankers have to focus on alpha damage rather than 30s worth of shooting.

And let's see where it stands after a couple of months, perhaps when CCP sees nobody using it they will try buffing it to the point that people feel safe carrying three Nightmare hulls in one hauler.


It doesn't matter if you autopilot or not. You will still be bumped out of alignment in the 8..10s MWD cycle.
And a 'choke point' it's well... a choke point. You can't avoid them unless you want to spend the next 3 days moving stuff while traveling 100+ jumps.


If you feel this way then bring a fleet of your own for protection.


And what is the point of bringing a fleet to escort this ship when in that case you can just more all the ships individually with much more EHP maybe fitting some links in that fleet making them even safer?

Wouldn't make the point of introducing this ship ... well, useless?


ever thought it's designed for low value high volumes of ships rather than low volume high value?

hint hint; people shouldn't stuff these full of shiny things people want to gank you for, like every other freighter!


Indeed so, multiple trips, which again, defeats the purpose. You are better moving each of the ship individually in the same number of trips for much more safety.
S'No Flake
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#509 - 2014-11-11 15:16:32 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Quote:


And what is the point of bringing a fleet to escort this ship when in that case you can just more all the ships individually with much more EHP maybe fitting some links in that fleet making them even safer?

Wouldn't make the point of introducing this ship ... well, useless?


Because when we deploy we only bring one fleet worth of shipsRoll

I can now bring three megathrons on deployments in one trip. Or an entire replacement harpy/bomber fleet in just one ship. No more scrapping of rigs when we redeploy and no more begging for carrier space.


It makes more sense to use it to bridge it with a titan with a **** load of HACs/AFs/Bombers/etc inside, in 0.0 than use it in HS :)
I'm debating the use of this ship where CCP intended to be used: HS
Dave Stark
#510 - 2014-11-11 15:19:33 UTC
S'No Flake wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
S'No Flake wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
S'No Flake wrote:
It carries about 4 times more than Oraca so, it needs 4 times more EHP to keep EHP/cargo ratio Evil


no it doesn't.

people need to be less dumb.
just because you have x cargo doesn't mean you need to fill all the space.

ehp/cargo ratio is about as useful and relevant as the slugs/snowflakes ratio of my garden.


That was sarcasm :P

Most people flying freighters have a web alt (which can fail on regional gates) so, i don't see the point of using this ship if you are
an incursion runner flying your logi/DPS ships to a new spawn or your DPS/Sniper ships. You can get much more buffer from your individual ships with travel fit and allows you to use mwd+cloak and you can use ASB+AAR.

If you have to move more than 2 ships, this new freighter it's pretty much useless as you will still have to do 2 runs because of how expensive your cargo is: 2 pirate hulls + 2 logi ships will go way over 2bil mark (without fittings) hence, 2 trips.

I might be wrong but i don't see any case where this ships is better for anyone with 2 characters.
And if you have only one character only, the amount you will move at one time to be somehow gank safe will make it useless and you are better using an orca.



*shrug* so you might have to make a few choices.

seems fine to me.


There is no choice seriously.
If you use one char, an Orca it's better if the cost of the stuff you move it's less than 1bil. Much more tank for the isk you move.
If you use 2 chars you are better if you fly the ships separately instead of flying the bowhead because you get better tank + cloak/mwd.

It seems to have no point of flying this in HS. Yes, the example of moving 90 harpies, escorted trough low or 0.0 it's cool but, it's not the role CCP wants for this ship :)


or you can choose to put it all in the 1 bowhead, and take the relevant precautions to only have to make the trip once.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#511 - 2014-11-11 15:20:38 UTC
S'No Flake wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Quote:


And what is the point of bringing a fleet to escort this ship when in that case you can just more all the ships individually with much more EHP maybe fitting some links in that fleet making them even safer?

Wouldn't make the point of introducing this ship ... well, useless?


Because when we deploy we only bring one fleet worth of shipsRoll

I can now bring three megathrons on deployments in one trip. Or an entire replacement harpy/bomber fleet in just one ship. No more scrapping of rigs when we redeploy and no more begging for carrier space.


It makes more sense to use it to bridge it with a titan with a **** load of HACs/AFs/Bombers/etc inside, in 0.0 than use it in HS :)
I'm debating the use of this ship where CCP intended to be used: HS


You are debating it wrong then. It doesnt matter if CCP said its for high sec, fact is that it will see the bulk of its use in null by the organised powers. You dont see a use for it, fine, let the people who do have a use for it have this much wanted ship.
S'No Flake
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#512 - 2014-11-11 15:30:59 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
S'No Flake wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


There is no choice seriously.
If you use one char, an Orca it's better if the cost of the stuff you move it's less than 1bil. Much more tank for the isk you move.
If you use 2 chars you are better if you fly the ships separately instead of flying the bowhead because you get better tank + cloak/mwd.

It seems to have no point of flying this in HS. Yes, the example of moving 90 harpies, escorted trough low or 0.0 it's cool but, it's not the role CCP wants for this ship :)


or you can choose to put it all in the 1 bowhead, and take the relevant precautions to only have to make the trip once.


Ha, define relevant precautions while you use only one character to move 2 fitted incursion BSs with a Bowhead in one trip.
Dave Stark
#513 - 2014-11-11 15:31:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
S'No Flake wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
S'No Flake wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


There is no choice seriously.
If you use one char, an Orca it's better if the cost of the stuff you move it's less than 1bil. Much more tank for the isk you move.
If you use 2 chars you are better if you fly the ships separately instead of flying the bowhead because you get better tank + cloak/mwd.

It seems to have no point of flying this in HS. Yes, the example of moving 90 harpies, escorted trough low or 0.0 it's cool but, it's not the role CCP wants for this ship :)


or you can choose to put it all in the 1 bowhead, and take the relevant precautions to only have to make the trip once.


Ha, define relevant precautions while you use only one character to move 2 fitted incursion BSs with a Bowhead in one trip.

you could just read the thread?

anyway, as i pointed out earlier, blue frog have no issue moving 5bn isk of junk back and forth so i'm sure you can manage it.
S'No Flake
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#514 - 2014-11-11 15:32:12 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
S'No Flake wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Quote:


And what is the point of bringing a fleet to escort this ship when in that case you can just more all the ships individually with much more EHP maybe fitting some links in that fleet making them even safer?

Wouldn't make the point of introducing this ship ... well, useless?


Because when we deploy we only bring one fleet worth of shipsRoll

I can now bring three megathrons on deployments in one trip. Or an entire replacement harpy/bomber fleet in just one ship. No more scrapping of rigs when we redeploy and no more begging for carrier space.


It makes more sense to use it to bridge it with a titan with a **** load of HACs/AFs/Bombers/etc inside, in 0.0 than use it in HS :)
I'm debating the use of this ship where CCP intended to be used: HS


You are debating it wrong then. It doesnt matter if CCP said its for high sec, fact is that it will see the bulk of its use in null by the organised powers. You dont see a use for it, fine, let the people who do have a use for it have this much wanted ship.


I don't see use a use for it in HS where CCP intended to be used.
It's a good logistics ship outside of the intended scope, i'm not contesting that :)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#515 - 2014-11-11 15:35:10 UTC
S'No Flake wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
S'No Flake wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Quote:


And what is the point of bringing a fleet to escort this ship when in that case you can just more all the ships individually with much more EHP maybe fitting some links in that fleet making them even safer?

Wouldn't make the point of introducing this ship ... well, useless?


Because when we deploy we only bring one fleet worth of shipsRoll

I can now bring three megathrons on deployments in one trip. Or an entire replacement harpy/bomber fleet in just one ship. No more scrapping of rigs when we redeploy and no more begging for carrier space.


It makes more sense to use it to bridge it with a titan with a **** load of HACs/AFs/Bombers/etc inside, in 0.0 than use it in HS :)
I'm debating the use of this ship where CCP intended to be used: HS


You are debating it wrong then. It doesnt matter if CCP said its for high sec, fact is that it will see the bulk of its use in null by the organised powers. You dont see a use for it, fine, let the people who do have a use for it have this much wanted ship.


I don't see use a use for it in HS where CCP intended to be used.
It's a good logistics ship outside of the intended scope, i'm not contesting that :)


Just ignore that comment on highsec, its most likely there to confuse the high sec bears just long enough to get it in game before they realise its an industrial ship aimed at combat pilots.
S'No Flake
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#516 - 2014-11-11 15:35:33 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
S'No Flake wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
S'No Flake wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


There is no choice seriously.
If you use one char, an Orca it's better if the cost of the stuff you move it's less than 1bil. Much more tank for the isk you move.
If you use 2 chars you are better if you fly the ships separately instead of flying the bowhead because you get better tank + cloak/mwd.

It seems to have no point of flying this in HS. Yes, the example of moving 90 harpies, escorted trough low or 0.0 it's cool but, it's not the role CCP wants for this ship :)


or you can choose to put it all in the 1 bowhead, and take the relevant precautions to only have to make the trip once.


Ha, define relevant precautions while you use only one character to move 2 fitted incursion BSs with a Bowhead in one trip.

you could just read the thread?


I did. Web alt won't work if you have one character.
Max tank with DC2 + bulkheads + rigs and resists + mwd in mids will not save you from anything really.
The mwd it's useless without a cloak as you can be bumped until downtime and the tank it's barely superior to an Orca where at this point you are better doing multiple trips in anything else but the bowhead.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#517 - 2014-11-11 15:36:12 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


You are debating it wrong then. It doesnt matter if CCP said its for high sec, fact is that it will see the bulk of its use in null by the organised powers. You dont see a use for it, fine, let the people who do have a use for it have this much wanted ship.


That would mean that CCP is designing it improperly. There is no need to make logistics easier for the big nullsec powerblocs...in fact the current meta is to make logistics more difficult for them.

What there is a need for is something in highsec to help incursion runners avoid the boredom of moving their ships around one by one, which they can currently do with 100% safety by using cloak + mwd + travel fit. To replace this with a slow freighter with mediocre tank that can easily be bumped into helplessness for gankers to kill it is, as you rightly point out, something that won't see much use in highsec. The solution to that isn't to give up and accept that it wont see use in highsec, rather it's to design it so that it has more tank and enough agility to avoid bumping, so that incursion runners will be comfortable sticking 3 pirate faction battleships inside. The point isn't to make it impervious to ganking, rather it's to ensure that gankers need to bring enough dps to kill it on the first go, not be able to bump it and come with 3 different waves of gankers at 15 minute intervals.
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#518 - 2014-11-11 15:38:03 UTC
S'No Flake wrote:

It makes more sense to use it to bridge it with a titan with a **** load of HACs/AFs/Bombers/etc inside, in 0.0 than use it in HS :)
I'm debating the use of this ship where CCP intended to be used: HS



So this ship is the "work around" for jump fatigue?

Step (1)
Put your pilots into travel fit interceptors and burn like **** to the target location

Step (2)
Pray there is no pipe bombing.

Step (3)
Bridge a Bowhead into the system with a metricfucktonne of pre fitted HACs in the hold.

Step (4)
??

Step (5)
Switch inty's for HACs at the Bowhead and safe/log off the Bowhead

Step (6)
Win the battle

Step (7)
Profit


Only issue is having a stranded Bowhead if it all goes pete tong
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#519 - 2014-11-11 15:39:16 UTC
Alright, added quite a bit of base hp (mostly in shield, some in structure) and changed the max velocity bonus to agility. OP is updated with new numbers.

@ccp_rise
Dave Stark
#520 - 2014-11-11 15:41:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
CCP Rise wrote:
Alright, added quite a bit of base hp (mostly in shield, some in structure) and changed the max velocity bonus to agility. OP is updated with new numbers.


i'd still rather have had a warp speed bonus...

also GJ caving to whiners.