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Primary weapons for all tier 3 ships

Author
Ishtar Starfire
DarkWIng Industrial Mechanics inc.
#1 - 2011-12-14 16:00:21 UTC
As a pure caldari pilot i feel that with the deployment of the new tier 3 battlecruisers you have given an unfair advantage to everyone except caldari pilots. an example would be like giving a fat kid a whole cake while the skinny kid has to watch and get nothing. not one of the new ships allows for successful deployment of missles. take the nage for example you gave a caldari ship blasters. how many caldari pilots actually have maxed out blaster skills. its total disregard for the players needs. if the naga was deployed the proper way it should have been able to fit siege launchers with bonuses to go along with them. each of the other ships stuck with there true weapons for there race but instead you gave the caldari ship an off weapon. reconfigure the naga to fit siege launchers and give it some bonuses like you did with the manticore. i as an avide player since 2006 feel that i have been cast aside because of favoratism towards other races. now if i wanted to fly the ship properly i will be behind the power curve because i have to completly retrain myself to use hybrid weapons. im sure i am not the only one to have this issue with this. I do not wish to impead on your job but honestly some of the calls ccp makes has not been the greatest. from a players perspective it seems that you dont pay to much attention to the flow of the game. for example. caldari specialize in shields and missles thats what makes us great. but instead with the cuurent game you have givin massive bonuses to gun ammo of almost all types and have slightly increased bonuses for only one type of missle for caldari. also with the deployment of the new ships with the bonuses you put the power in everyone elses hands except the caldari. power in this game should be set by skill not by you. all ships should be equal in there own rights. but sticking to the traditions of the race in which it was built for
Mr Painless
Perkone
Caldari State
#2 - 2011-12-14 16:41:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Painless
Hybrids (railguns, to be more specific) are Caldari racial weapons just as missiles are. The list of Caldari ships that have purely hybrid bonuses is quite long, unfortunately not as quite distinguished. Your lack of hybrid and/or gunnery skills is your own problem. Especially if you play from 2006 and still haven't found time to train gunnery.
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba
Crunchy Crunchy
#3 - 2011-12-14 16:48:20 UTC
It's not rocket science.... *ahem* ¬_¬

CCP did this to force people to train up Hybrids so that they get a better chance of being used. Along with the buff to Hybrid specs this is just the first phase of refocusing a lot of Caldari pilots towards Hybrids. After feedback and subsequent updates I am sure they will be awesome.
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#4 - 2011-12-14 16:52:55 UTC
Gah, my eyes.

There are some amazing things (such as newline characters, punctuation marks, and the difference between homonyms) that you might want to learn to work into your writing. They really do improve the presentation of your idea.
Lovejoy II
Lovejoy's Operations
#5 - 2011-12-14 17:02:23 UTC
Caldari is already arguably the easiest race to train and fly effectively. And it's not like the other races have multiple weapon skills to train....
Xtover
Cold Moon Destruction.
#6 - 2011-12-14 17:39:36 UTC
I read up until you mentioned blasters.

Caldari favor Railguns.

Listen closely. I have flown in Naga fleets, and small roaming gangs. When done properly, the Naga is an amazing ship that just destroys everything in its path. If they were torp or cruise, it would not work.

The flight time is so much that the Nagas would not have the quick kill that they possess, and it would be a terrible ship. How bad? Look at the Talos, a short range-focused ship. It's not popular because the tank isn't enough for its lack of range.
Ishtar Starfire
DarkWIng Industrial Mechanics inc.
#7 - 2011-12-14 17:53:45 UTC
first off caldari do not favor railguns. you would know this if you had played longer than a day. none of you who posted so far know what ccp has done to the caldari over the years. we have been nerfed time and time again. but yet minimal nerfs have occured to the other 3 races. i have been there for alote of them. and for you non caldari pilots you do not see the impact as i do. when the effectivness of your weapons get slammed to a piont where no missle is effective any more, than you would be upset as well. and for my grammer. stay on subject i dont need a lesson in typing for i really dont care.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#8 - 2011-12-14 18:13:26 UTC
Caldari are (at last check) roughly 50/50 missile/hybrid (although they favour rails over blasters).

It just so happens that for whatever reason, Caldari pilots seem to feel that "Missiles are the only way to go". This has probably been perpetuated by the simple facts
a. Hybrids have been broken for a *long* time
b. Missions are stupidly easy in the Kestrel >> ? >> Drake >> Raven progression.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Ishtar Starfire
DarkWIng Industrial Mechanics inc.
#9 - 2011-12-14 18:35:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Ishtar Starfire
i will correct myself. my last statement was misrepresented, railguns are favored by caldari but i posted in responce that they are not favored over missles and i believe the one your missing is the caracal
Averyia
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2011-12-14 18:40:07 UTC
... You means why would CCP provide a useful weapon to the new Naga instead of the less useful (or useless) weapon that are currently plaguing the Caldari Battleships (I'm looking at you Raven).

All warfare is based on deception and logistics. Battles and soldiers are secondary priorities.

Fidelium Mortis
Minor Major Miners LLC
#11 - 2011-12-14 18:49:27 UTC
Given there are already viable missile platforms for the Caldari, and given the intent of the Tier 3 BCs (high damage, low tank platforms that are more maneuverable than a BS), the hybrid Naga fits the niche well. One major issue to consider, is what role would a missile Naga really play? The low tank would limit it's viability in PvE, and a missile platform would be undesirable as an agile (relatively) dps platform in PvP. Additionally, there are already viable PvE missile platforms in the game, where as a missile Naga would lag behind its turret based counterparts in PvP.

ICRS - Intergalactic Certified Rocket Surgeon

tankus2
HeartVenom Inc.
BORE
#12 - 2011-12-14 19:41:55 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Caldari are (at last check) roughly 50/50 missile/hybrid (although they favour rails over blasters).

It just so happens that for whatever reason, Caldari pilots seem to feel that "Missiles are the only way to go". This has probably been perpetuated by the simple facts
a. Hybrids have been broken for a *long* time
b. Missions are stupidly easy in the Kestrel >> ? >> Drake >> Raven progression.


the missing link is (usually) the Caracal, as that is the missilew---- of the cruisers.


the Galente are also 50/50, but with drones and hybrids (favoring blasters), and I figured the Talos would be the forgotten child because of the Galente desire to either sic minions after their enemies or murder their enemy's face at point-blank range. It would be the ship that you'd have a pair sitting back, and when the fleet is having trouble with one guy you have them warp to the interceptor.

getting back to the topic, the Naga is actually a breath of fresh air in the Caldari line-up of ships that are either missiles or near-useless. Or at least hybrids were near-useless for the longest time. Though it must be said that a vulture was able to deliver a decent hit to a cynabal at 90km and with close-range ammo before the guns were fixed.

If I remember correctly (yes, I can't keep focused very well), both the Naga and Talos give bonuses to large HYBRIDS and not Rails or Blasters. So you can have that blaster Naga or that rail Talos and get somewhere, like a Hyperion or Megathron with rails or a Rokh with blasters.

Where the science gets done

Sentar Manar
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2011-12-14 19:54:41 UTC
Fidelium Mortis - Pretty much what i hear you saying is all Caldari have are turret boats, guns are the best thing for everything, there isn't anything better then turrets in the Caldari fleet, and then you think they shouldn't make a good missile ship which is clearly the primary weapon used by Caldari (Case and Point Phoenix uses missiles, Leviathan uses missiles, raven, drake ect)? For the most part turrets are better then missiles. So don't you think a good missile boat would be nice for the Caldari?

Also another problem i see with the Naga being a blaster/rail-gun boat is they use energy, MWD uses energy which you should have if you plan to stay alive. Shield resist/tank will use energy. That means your fitting options are going to extremely limited with it. If it had Torpedo's then that problem would be solved.

And the role the Missile Naga would play is a fast, High DPS, Anti Battleship/Pos weapon. It would certainly need the correct bonuses given to it but it should at least be a missile boat that's even with the other tier 3s in both DPS, Cost and specialized training. Asking all Caldari pilots to train for railguns is just insane. Its clear that the Naga should no doubt be a Missile boat.
Ishtar Starfire
DarkWIng Industrial Mechanics inc.
#14 - 2011-12-14 20:04:06 UTC
as you all well know missles take a whileto reach there target. but there is supposed to be a trade off to that. more dps. yet ccp has failed on numerous ocasions to boost missle dps. why not. reasons are unkown. any way if you look at the naga as a torp versus a blaster you will se that both the torps and blasters have a range of about 20km max so where is your flight time with missles why do you say it will take forever to hit. if the naga were to have a velocity boost then theres the fix for that. and if your comlaining that the naga needs TP's then add a sig radius bonus to it. the two mods i have just added pail in comparison to the multitude of bonuses the other three ships recieved. and on another note, ccp is setting caldari up for an epic fail. you have the naga a cladari ship which inherintly uses shields to protect itself, which uses cap. and now they have made it a blaster boat which, wait you guessed it uses cap. now thats all saying that you have the skills to fly the t2 version or even the t1 version effectivly. i personally spec in missles and i was never told to stay with the power curve you must trian blasters or hybrids which ever the case may be. i can use the largeg guns now but to get to t2 it would take me 56 days. now in how much time can the other three races perfect there skills while im putsing away trying to just use the guns let alone the ammo or the weapon mods for any type of decent dps. why would ccp make a ship that holds no benifit to the caldari pilots. cause last i checked it may be 50/50 witht the ships but the hybrid ships suck the guns may be better but the ships still suck and for that matter if they wanted to change how pilots flew why didnt the give the other 3 ships there off spec weapons. tornado could be using missles. amarr could use missles. galente could use drones. so dont give me that "ccp is trying to make pilots focus on other weapons to better fly all platforms, thats a load and you know it." all in all this is a big F##k you to caldari as it has been since 2004 when they started nefing us. nerf after nerf we lost abilitys and the other races barely got touched. so stop making excuses for ccp in an area you know nothing about. expecially if you just started playing this game.
Feligast
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2011-12-14 20:06:47 UTC
Ishtar Starfire wrote:
~wall-o-text~ its total disregard for the players needs. ~wall-o-text~


hahahahahahhahahhhahahahahahaha Lol
CobaltSixty
Fawkes' Loyal Professionals
#16 - 2011-12-14 20:07:38 UTC  |  Edited by: CobaltSixty
Even with the addition of the Naga, hybrid-bonused ships only make up just over a third of the Caldari combat lineup. Making the Naga a turret-only ship was the best thing CCP could have done for Caldari and is hopefully a commitment to improving long-range warfare.

The only hybrid bonused ships in the Caldari T1 lineup are; the Merlin, Cormorant, Moa, Ferox, Naga, Rokh, for a total of six. There are only five T2 ships (all from the same manufacturer, except the Raptor which should be Ishukone) that are hybrid bonused as well; the Raptor, Harpy, Falcon, Eagle, and Vulture. Ishukone makes the least amount of T2 ships in the Caldari State and only 2/3 of their models use rails. The Buzzard (which should be Lai Dai) doesn't and neither does the Rhea.

-1 to the OP and everyone that agrees with them. Just because you lack the foresight to train towards these particular ships and the weapon systems they use doesn't mean that the rest of us should be punished for wanting to use our race's alternate weapons system. Missiles are used on practically everything else Caldari (I count 16 missile-bonused ships, more whose slots demand their use). Any perceived shortcomings in missile use will not be fixed by breaking the Naga.
Ishtar Starfire
DarkWIng Industrial Mechanics inc.
#17 - 2011-12-14 20:16:29 UTC
-1 to the OP and everyone that agrees with them. Just because you lack the foresight to train towards these particular ships and the weapon systems they use doesn't mean that the rest of us should be punished for wanting to use our race's alternate weapons system. Missiles are used on practically everything else Caldari (I count 16 missile-bonused ships, more whose slots demand their use). Any perceived shortcomings in missile use will not be fixed by breaking the Naga.[/quote]


explain to me what alternate weapons are you using on the tier 3 ships from other races. all of them use there primary weapons. do you homework
Velicitia
XS Tech
#18 - 2011-12-14 20:25:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
tankus2 wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
Caldari are (at last check) roughly 50/50 missile/hybrid (although they favour rails over blasters).

It just so happens that for whatever reason, Caldari pilots seem to feel that "Missiles are the only way to go". This has probably been perpetuated by the simple facts
a. Hybrids have been broken for a *long* time
b. Missions are stupidly easy in the Kestrel >> ? >> Drake >> Raven progression.


the missing link is (usually) the Caracal, as that is the missilew---- of the cruisers.


the Galente are also 50/50, but with drones and hybrids (favoring blasters), and I figured the Talos would be the forgotten child because of the Galente desire to either sic minions after their enemies or murder their enemy's face at point-blank range. It would be the ship that you'd have a pair sitting back, and when the fleet is having trouble with one guy you have them warp to the interceptor.


Well, we favour drones over hybrids (well, in that you generally see Vexor, Myrmi, Domi, Ishtar as the mission boats) ... but yeah Cool
Actually, the Talos is a great ship, if you can get within range (which is the stupidly hard part). Since CCP still hasn't finished with the hybrid/Gallente balancing yet, it may turn out to be better than people are giving it credit for.

tankus2 wrote:

If I remember correctly (yes, I can't keep focused very well), both the Naga and Talos give bonuses to large HYBRIDS and not Rails or Blasters. So you can have that blaster Naga or that rail Talos and get somewhere, like a Hyperion or Megathron with rails or a Rokh with blasters.


Yes, you're completely correct here. However the bonuses (range for Naga, tracking for Talos) are what "define" them as the railgun/blaster platform... not that having more range on blasters or more tracking on rails would be a "bad" thing.


@CobaltSixty
I suppose you're just looking at the ships that are bonused towards hybrids then?

Frigs
Bantam -- 2 Turret (Mining bonuses)
Condor -- 2 launcher / 1 Turret (missile bonuses)
Griffin -- 2 Launcher / 1 Turret (EWAR bonuses)
Heron -- 2 Launcher / 1 Turret (Missile Kinetic Dmg and Scanning bonuses)
Kestrel -- 4 Launcher (Missile Bonuses)
Merlin -- 2 Launcher / 2 Turret (Hybrid Bonuses)


Cruisers
Blackbird -- 3 Launcher / 3 Turret (EWAR bonuses)
Caracal -- 5 Launcher / 2 Turret (Missile Bonuses)
Moa -- 5 Turret (Hybrid Bonuses)
Osprey -- 2 Launcher / 3 Turret (Mining Bonuses)

Battlecruisers
Drake -- 7 Launcher (Missile Bonus)
Ferox -- 5 Launcher / 6 Turret (Hybrid Bonus)
Naga -- 8 Turret (Hybrid Bonus)

Battleships
Raven -- 6 Launcher / 4 Turret (Missile Bonus)
Rokh -- 4 Launcher / 8 Turret (Hybrid Bonus)
Scorpion -- 4 Launcher / 4 Turret (EWAR Bonus)

Of 16 T1 ships
6 of them have some kind of missile bonuses
5 of them have hybrid bonuses
5 of them have EWAR/Mining (and no Missile/Hybrid bonuses)

So, ignoring the 5 that have neither bonus, it was a 60/40 split ... and now it's approx 45/55.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

CobaltSixty
Fawkes' Loyal Professionals
#19 - 2011-12-14 20:30:00 UTC
Ishtar Starfire wrote:
explain to me what alternate weapons are you using on the tier 3 ships from other races. all of them use there primary weapons. do you homework

For one, you fail at quoting.

Two, every race has an alternate weapon system that is used to varying degrees and no, not necessarily on the tier-3 battlecruisers. The Talos has drones, which are the Gallente alternate system but they're not bonused here.

The fact is that if the Naga used missiles, the primary weapon system of the Caldari, it would die horribly in a fire every damn time. The low-tank stipulation of tier-3 BC demands the use of instantaneous damage. The only way to accomplish that with Caldari is to use hybrid turrets. The Talos and Naga have IDENTICAL turret damage output before mods - what disadvantage are you so worked up about? Oh right, because you can't use it yet and are butthurt about it.
Xtover
Cold Moon Destruction.
#20 - 2011-12-14 20:50:20 UTC
Ishtar Starfire wrote:
first off caldari do not favor railguns. you would know this if you had played longer than a day. none of you who posted so far know what ccp has done to the caldari over the years. we have been nerfed time and time again. but yet minimal nerfs have occured to the other 3 races. i have been there for alote of them. and for you non caldari pilots you do not see the impact as i do. when the effectivness of your weapons get slammed to a piont where no missle is effective any more, than you would be upset as well. and for my grammer. stay on subject i dont need a lesson in typing for i really dont care.

I've been playing since 06, my main is caldari.

shut up.
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