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[Proposal] Reworked Mining.
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Navie
LoneStar Dynamics
#1 - 2014-10-28 20:02:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Navie
I would like to propose a complete rework of the mining system. This post will outline the problems with the current system and help define ways improve upon the current game-play associated with mining and define clear and unique roles within a mining fleet.

The current state:
Right now the majority of mining in eve is done in High Security Space. Primarily though independent barges. Small mining fleets will post Orca's near a station and stick to 1.0~0.8 space some will venture to .7 but after that mining ops are generally rare unless they are deep into secure territory and even then there's little risk to reward to be had. Sure some miners will bring a freighter out to load up from time to time but that's about it. It boils primarily

However

My aim here is to improve the mining experience and not the overall balance, however my game-play proposals should have an interesting effect on mining in more dangerous regions and serve to offer some improvement for miners in those areas so based on that some adjustment could and should be made in the namesake of balance.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

So what would I do differently.

Well Mining should be a more interactive part of the experience and less of a "Aim Laser, Get Sandwich" Activity. Your going to have to bare with me h ere for a minute because its not as simple as changing any one thing. Some of the changes wont make sense unless you read them all.

Asteroid Belts:
Most of the changes take place here, reading these first will help understand the ship changes, but at first glance they will seem confusing.


  • Make asteroid belts 3 dimensional (similar to the ones found in W-Space.)
  • Make asteroids more spaced out (10km approx).
  • Make the smallest Asteroids much larger in visual appearance. (at least so that even the smallest asteroids are the size of a mining barge.
  • Clean up collision boxes to function with new size properly.
  • Asteroids spawn much faster.
  • Increase max ore amount.
  • Decrease the minimum ore amount.
  • Allow asteroids to be tractor'd by ship mounted tractor beams.
  • Create a missile that breaks asteroids into smaller pieces.
  • Add 1~5 large mineral-free asteroids to each belt (large collide-able object can not be tractor-ed).


Mining Platforms:
A mining platform is a new deploy-able structure that can be used on a LCO asteroid found within a belt. They serve as a mining outpost and have anchor-able modules. However they are temporary structures that only flag suspect when attacked. These platforms provide a buff relative to the skills of the owner while the owner is in system. Its buff's however are limited to within a set perimeter range of the platform (5~10km max) however these buffs stack with Orca buffs and are significant (50~70% total yield once you calculate speed/yield together) They will also allow players (similar to a poco) to store a large amount of ore/minerals inside of them, additionally they will also allow that player to turn over their minerals to corp via a button within the interface. If they have no players associated with the corp/player/fleet that deployed them present after 10 minutes they go offline and can be put back online without flagging or penalty by any player... So its probably best to collect when your done using them. Also they last only for 1 week after they go offline unless put back online. These platforms would be cheap (10mil approximately not counting modules is what i would target the construction cost at) If you have the skills to deploy one. They will also have the benefit of teaching players about anchoring and star-base configuration before getting involved with pos's.

Some modules that can be fitted: (more to come)

  • Guns (some basic defensive structures that will shoot at anyone aggressing players in the 10k perimeter... Or aggression the station it self. Does not shoot at non-aggressive players unless over-ridden by a player via the starbase defense skill. This action can not be taken in high security space.) (in fact it may not allow guns at all in high sec.)
  • Protective Field Provides about 100k HP protection before breaking. Must be broken before players within the bubble can be targeted. Possibly limited to use in Low/Nul/Wspace Only. Does not have any reinforce phases. Can only fit one. 10km radius.
  • Ship Maintenance Array (does not allow storage only allows refitting) while within 10km


_________________________________________________________________________________________________

The purpose of all this and the new roles for ships in a mining fleet:

Mining Platforms:
I'm sure you have guessed by now that the intended game-play is to have a base where mining barges sit and mine at an extremely high rate. Since players will quickly run out of asteroids to mine within range of the station they will for best mining results need to rely on support from smaller mining vessels like the venture or perhaps a Noctis to go out, survey and tractor new asteroids back to them in order to remain the most productive. They can store their minerals inside the base until they can get a freighter or Orca back to the platform to pick up their goods. While the platform does offer some minor protection its nothing a sufficient roam cant pop (even in high since concord will not respond) quickly enough to scam any fleeing barges. Further more even if all the barges get away you can pop the platform and collect the minerals inside. Players can still use the more tried method of keeping a freighter on hand but a freighter is probably not going to escape in time.

*Read Below, ran out of space*
Navie
LoneStar Dynamics
#2 - 2014-10-28 20:16:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Navie
Venture/Prospect:
These ships in addition to their popular current roles also become great survey/tractor ships able to go out a little more safely with their base core stability to collect and tractor asteroids back to the platform. Since asteroids have a much wider range of mineral content and are spread out over a large area the speed, and ability to determine good asteroids from bad asteroids would be essential to a solid mining fleet. There are also new missiles you can use to break giant asteroids (like 16km+++ veldspar) into smaller chunks. Broken asteroids despawn quickly if not mined (30min~) Do keep in mind new asteroids will spawn more quickly as well but this still lets you move/remove rocks from an area to some degree.

Barges:
Barges would have a more difficult time sitting in a belt alone, they would only have access to a few rocks within 10km~20km range before they need to move, and barges and moving aren't exactly a thing that goes hand in hand. Besides even with 1 person in a barge and 1 person in a venture gathering rocks you can be way more productive with a platform nearby. It may even be worth nurfing strip mine range so that belts don't have to be quite as massive however some gameplay testing would be needed.

Orca:
The role of an orca does not change much

Freighter:
The role of a freighter does not change much however there is arguably less of a reason to keep one near by.

Rorqual:
Rorquals help you get the most out of your mining platform since you can store minerals instead of ore and still provide buffs that stack with the platform.

Noctis:
The noctis would gain a new role since it can tractor so many things quickly. It would be useful in supporting a large fleet hauling back many rocks at once.

MTU:
Note that MTU's will not be able to tractor asteroids. But they can still be used to collect cans and wrecks as needed.

Belt Rats:
Belt rats will occasionally attack the platform is self requiring more interactive player strategy's to fend them off since you will need to manually set your drones to defend the platform, and or attack the rats. Also the presence of platforms could trigger much larger rat waves (think 5~10 ships instead of 1~3)

DISCLAIMER
The ore mining rates and bonus's of all ships may need adjusted dont sue me. The core concept of how mining should be more interactive is the point. Refining balance and reward is a different topic.
Danjun Zahid
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2014-10-29 07:42:33 UTC
what about the idea of asteroids moving at speeds. keeps people from being able to sit there afk as they may move out, also it would be funny to hear the miners whine about asteroid bumping aswell as the usual player bumping :P
Navie
LoneStar Dynamics
#4 - 2014-10-29 12:56:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Navie
Well I have good news and bad news for you.

First the bad news D:
Moving asteroids would have to path in some way, so they would be just as good at moving into range as they would out of range, and you could just target and follow with a bot and re-target nearest... etc... Once towed into position they would need to stop moving, or unnaturally if they started moving for some reason could just be pinned in place by keeping the tractor on them.

Now the good news :D
Since there's nothing stopping you (at least in high sec where the bots live) from using someone else's mining platform or going near it, you could just go in with a Noctis and start pulling their rocks away from them if they are AFK inside the range of a platform. If they are simple botting and just flying around you could go in a magnate or something faster and pull rocks away from them easily out there as well.

Some other thoughts:
My idea isnt to "Ruin mining for people who like to sit and drill rocks all day" you can still do that in a barge in the range of a platform, only to do so you will need to rely on people keeping you fed with rocks to mine and offering mining opportunities to more active players as well. Also the idea that you can shield a platform and even give it guns (although probably not in hs) helps generate some incentive to mine in more dangerous space... especially if that bubble is made so that interdiction bubbles must be placed outside of it. (since a large problem in W space for miners is the interdictor gank). Lastly there could be some sort of tax structure to allow deploying a platform and maintaining it a worth while investment. Sure it would be easy for a miner to find a location to deploy their own (since they despawn quickly and have a large number of viable anchor points and there's no shortage of belts.

A note on platforms:
Platforms could also be made to have transaction logs so if players decide to team up you can see how much ore was put in or out of it so players in ventures/orca's etc. pulling rocks in or indirectly supporting the fleet have a production record and can tell how much they should be paid. Or at least on what value was produced by the fleet.
Fredo Lai
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2014-10-29 23:07:44 UTC
I like your idea.

It gives miners something to do besides watching BBC Documentary's (although I do like watching BBC Documentary's) and creates a little fun to be had by people pulling the best rocks away.
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
#6 - 2014-10-30 10:15:35 UTC
I think this proposal possibly is worth thinking about if it was only implemented in nullsec. Changes need to be made to encourage corporations to move into nullsec and this maybe could form part of that plan.

In terms of high sec and generally as a proposal there are a few problems with it.

a) It seems to make all the mining vessels bar the Orca & Rorqual nearly redundant especially if mining arrays form part of the mining platform installation.

b) Most people don't want to be suicide ganked or attacked in other ways but this does form an important part of gameplay. I imagine the mining platform would have to be wardecced before they could be attacked? Even if a wardec was not needed a bubble around the mining platform would probably have space to accommodate mining vessels if they were used in the proposal. This would be against CCP's core principles of risk & combat opportunities being available.

c) We do not need increased yield or supply of minerals/ore within the game. Prices for ore and minerals are currently at a sufficient level to make mining a reasonable career option although nowhere near as good as other options such as some exploration, missions, nullsec ratting, & Incursions. That I believe is where it should be. If we had increased yield prices would inevitably fall. Take for example the amount of Zydrine & Megacyte arriving at Jita for sale which has collapsed the price of Zydrine. Yet another reason to not have increased yield.

So on balance I give this proposal a -1.

Also shouldn't this OP be on the F & I board ?

" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. " Rick. " Find out what ? " Abraham. " They're screwing with the wrong people. " Rick. Season four.   ' The Walking Dead. ' .
Navie
LoneStar Dynamics
#7 - 2014-10-30 12:49:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Navie
Okay to address a b and c.

A: it would stack with the buffs from those units. also the orca is a great ore hauler and the rorqual can make minerals on site.

B: it does not need decced. It would be like shooting an MTU (just a very large mtu) it would trigger suspect status. So you could shoot it and steal the surviving ore/minerals. (I actually said this earlier :D no worries it was a long post)

C: the increase in yield is balanced (although testing is needed) by the fact that you need to pull rocks to it. The increase is meant to be enough that you can afford to pay people for their cooperation since they wont be directly contributing yield via mining lasers. Example: you make with intermediate level skills 17~20m per hour with 2 retrievers now. If you have a platform and require a retriever to mine near the platform + venture to survey and return rocks you still need to make at least that much (17~20m/hr) to justify its existence as an improvement in game-play and not a veiled nurf. So the large yield buff is very important. Also it means that miners in barges will exhaust rocks quickly and need to be more active.
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
SL33PERS
#8 - 2014-10-30 13:07:17 UTC
I think an interesting note to make on this is that the people that usually ask for mining to be reworked are people that do not actually mine.
Navie
LoneStar Dynamics
#9 - 2014-10-30 13:42:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Navie
I actually mine alot because I can play while at work and its a nice passive way to make money, but then again so is PI... This change would actually hurt me... But I could always freight while at work and freighting I think probably should not change.

Edit:
on retrospect it wouldn't hurt really... i would just have to move around a little more approaching rocks as I mine up the ones near me.
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
#10 - 2014-10-30 13:46:27 UTC
Ria Nieyli wrote:
I think an interesting note to make on this is that the people that usually ask for mining to be reworked are people that do not actually mine.


You are probably correct Ria. Big smile

I was just commenting on the proposal. My own personal thoughts are that mining as it stands is not broken and works as intended.

There are many parts of the game that are broken such as corp/alliance roles & permissions, lack of secure use of POS infrastructure, nullsec sovereignty, and arguably low sec in its entirety to name just four big ones. I think some or all of those four will get fixed at some point. I suspect CCP knows that mining isn't broken though and will hopefully leave it as it stands.

" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. " Rick. " Find out what ? " Abraham. " They're screwing with the wrong people. " Rick. Season four.   ' The Walking Dead. ' .
Navie
LoneStar Dynamics
#11 - 2014-10-30 13:58:45 UTC
I think mining is broken, but not in ways that my proposal is intended to fix. My proposal is just to make mining and mining fleets more fun and interactive.

I feel like theres still large problems with mining risk/reward in low/w-space. And nul while it is somewhat more rewarding could still be improved a lot. BUT that's not what this post is about. This post is about the actual gameplay.

PI/Freighting/Industry/Science/Invention are already great passive ways to make money. So there's room imo for mining to become much less passive and still leave something in the game for people who want to make money passively. Also you can still go out in a barge and fly around and mine... Ever been to a mining anomaly? It would be more like that where you drift from rock to rock mining them without a platform. Platforms just offer advantages to fleets and much more active individuals. Added gameplay. I'm not taking anything away that isn't already there just adding to it.
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2014-10-30 17:34:03 UTC
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn wrote:
I think this proposal possibly is worth thinking about if it was only implemented in nullsec. Changes need to be made to encourage corporations to move into nullsec and this maybe could form part of that plan.

In terms of high sec and generally as a proposal there are a few problems with it.

a) It seems to make all the mining vessels bar the Orca & Rorqual nearly redundant especially if mining arrays form part of the mining platform installation.

b) Most people don't want to be suicide ganked or attacked in other ways but this does form an important part of gameplay. I imagine the mining platform would have to be wardecced before they could be attacked? Even if a wardec was not needed a bubble around the mining platform would probably have space to accommodate mining vessels if they were used in the proposal. This would be against CCP's core principles of risk & combat opportunities being available.

c) We do not need increased yield or supply of minerals/ore within the game. Prices for ore and minerals are currently at a sufficient level to make mining a reasonable career option although nowhere near as good as other options such as some exploration, missions, nullsec ratting, & Incursions. That I believe is where it should be. If we had increased yield prices would inevitably fall. Take for example the amount of Zydrine & Megacyte arriving at Jita for sale which has collapsed the price of Zydrine. Yet another reason to not have increased yield.

So on balance I give this proposal a -1.

Also shouldn't this OP be on the F & I board ?


CCP's core principle is to make money. If this would increase the yield of subs, then CCP would do it.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
LiquidDreams
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2014-10-30 17:36:16 UTC


frankly I think it's really bad that you can only achieve 50 mil per hour compared to everyone else who can make lvl 4 missions or Ratte or data site relic site wh we will sit here and work five times as hard to get earn one Plax and prodution is too pricey put in the time you wait 5-6 days to earn 50 mil on the market because the cost of putting it in operation + tax is too high for the head is worthwhile if you do not have multiple acounts I think not in order try low it a fair bit for us so we mines mines 50% faster compared to now .. just to make it a fair bit as we sit here staring into a screen exposed to pirates constantly just suicide ganker us .. we also have advice to switch our ships when they are killed and not going out and being forced to buy a plac from cpp every time we go bankrupt
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2014-10-30 18:58:57 UTC  |  Edited by: 13kr1d1
LiquidDreams wrote:


frankly I think it's really bad that you can only achieve 50 mil per hour compared to everyone else who can make lvl 4 missions or Ratte or data site relic site wh we will sit here and work five times as hard to get earn one Plax and prodution is too pricey put in the time you wait 5-6 days to earn 50 mil on the market because the cost of putting it in operation + tax is too high for the head is worthwhile if you do not have multiple acounts I think not in order try low it a fair bit for us so we mines mines 50% faster compared to now .. just to make it a fair bit as we sit here staring into a screen exposed to pirates constantly just suicide ganker us .. we also have advice to switch our ships when they are killed and not going out and being forced to buy a plac from cpp every time we go bankrupt


it's that risk vs reward thing again.

Going into those high level missions requires a high power ship, with a high power tank. So you're putting lots of money "on the line" when you mission. It would be similar to mining in low sec, except everyone knows gathering those ores for immensely more risk of being exploded by "pirates" isn't worth it.

There's not really anywhere to go beyond exhumer. You have to branch out into cooperative efforts to increase yield, while the mission runner simply has to run a better tank and go solo. A lot of the MMO part of Eve is "solved" by people skilling up everything so they don't have to pay others for goods, buying alts with RL cash so they don't have to share pay evenly with others, or risk being backstabbed by others, and so on.

For all of CCP's claims that Eve is a harsh universe with consequences, most of those consequences can be avoided with alts and skilling up to produce your own stuff so you noone else can make money off of your need as a consumer. People are too easily self-reliant in Eve, particularly if they can afford to throw RL money at the problem.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
King Aires
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2014-11-01 13:31:41 UTC
It's as if a million [insert regional stereotype] Macrobotters voices suddenly cried out in terror...
Lo Huang
Canned Unicorn Meat
#16 - 2014-11-02 18:34:44 UTC
As somebody that used to mine a lot (on another pilot that I sold this year) I like this proposal for the most part. Making things interactive in my eyes is a good thing. It would breathe some real life into mining corps and make things actually interesting. It would also give CEOs a legitimate reason to hire on new and low SP pilots, as they would be perfect for manning the Ventures you mentioned that would break up the big rocks, and tractor in the smaller ones for final processing at the platform. Nothing like learning an industry from the bottom up, right?

I think that this would be even something CODE could get behind, as it pushes back against bot aspirancy, and promotes emergent and active gameplay. I do however think that access to the mining platform should be restricted to both the corporation and to the members of any fleet headed by a member of that corporation, just like permissions for access to the various hangars on the Orca.
Shuka Ra
Doomheim
#17 - 2014-11-03 10:28:44 UTC
Mining isn't broken. If you think it's broken, you're doing it wrong - and there are a ton of solo toons doing it wrong.

Leave it alone. If you have to play solo and without alts, find something more engaging.

With the right amount and properly skilled alts or fleetmates, it's engaging and makes very decent Isk per hour, despite what those who don't know what they're talking about like to say.

Pass on this proposal.
Navie
LoneStar Dynamics
#18 - 2014-11-03 15:39:11 UTC
Quote:
I do however think that access to the mining platform should be restricted to both the corporation and to the members of any fleet headed by a member of that corporation, just like permissions for access to the various hangars on the Orca.


The only thing with that is that the outposts are cheap, they have a limited number of deployment points per belt. Despite decaying quickly they could be abused by people patrolling to reset their timers and basically blocking people out of being able to use their own in High Sec.

Of course once your in low/nul you could use them to shoot at people you dont want near you... But! It may just be worth making a more permanent "Advanced Mining Platform" for higher risk space and restricting its use to low/nul/w-space. (Although w-space does not have permanent belts so that would get irritating)
LiquidDreams
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2014-11-04 10:46:53 UTC
Shuka Ra wrote:
Mining isn't broken. If you think it's broken, you're doing it wrong - and there are a ton of solo toons doing it wrong.

Leave it alone. If you have to play solo and without alts, find something more engaging.

With the right amount and properly skilled alts or fleetmates, it's engaging and makes very decent Isk per hour, despite what those who don't know what they're talking about like to say.

Pass on this proposal.



when you do something then do it fair as it looks now you lose ships to 300 mil in highsec but for saving a ship, you should enter my 24 hours with the boost you mission runner you can collect 700 mil together in 7 hours and you is not exposed to be Ganket of play all the time you can make mining wrong ..
it's just too big of a nef.

and it should not be as easy as code has to take highsec and controlled it without some kind of straff from concord when you have -10 understanding
it's not fun coming in as new player in highsec and then they Ganket
disappears they play fast again I know of several who have given up playing because of code is for aggrasive.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#20 - 2014-11-04 11:09:13 UTC
LiquidDreams, fix your translator because what you post is like r2d2 on crack.

And you are wrong about CODE and their funny permits because only idiots pay for permits. Use your brain and dotlan to find nice and quiet system where all you have to worry about is how to crunch all those belts before DT (hint: you can't). Pro tip: you don't really need to have a station in system you mine in. Try it and suddenly not only no CODE but also much less competition.

And mining is not broken in terms of bugs or quirks like corp stuff, it's broken in terms of lacking gameplay and engagement it offers. People are saying "oh I love how I can mine and read my book in the same time". Seriously? You pay for a game that is so boring that you need to have sth else to do? How can anybody consider it a good game when it doesn't need your attention?

Alts is not a solution to a problem of very poor gameplay, it's just multiplication of actions in that gameplay so you don't have time to feel boredom creeping in. Alts shouldn't even be a subject of discussion when engagement is considered.

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