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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Phoebe Retrospective

Author
Anthar Thebess
#1 - 2014-11-03 08:17:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
Gate sizes

We need new gate sizes, as this will solve many issues.
Lets agree on 3 gate sizes :
- S size : any capital movement prohibited , including non combat capital ships
- M size : pre phoebe gate , so any subcapital, and non combat capitals, excluding JF
- L size : any ship is able to use it.

Why?
Because this will solve many issues.
Examples:
A. We need to get our capital on the other side of Higsec.
After phoebe : spend week on travel or find proper wormhole
Solution using gate sizes : create "higsec route" that will allow you to cross higsec using L size of the gates while most of the higsec will be still blocked from capital access.
B. Far end constellations.
Few constellations that are just to far from any thing , creating S size gate to nearest NPC space will make them available to smaller alliances.
Example from my own yard : http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Paragon_Soul/D9DM-O , and connection should be somewhere in Stain.
C. Stain or Venal hard to access by new groups
So 2 biggest NPC Null spaces after reducing JF range to 5 LY will be cut off for smaller groups , as it will be hard to get there , and then live there without good supply route.
Solution will be again S size gate to some low space.
(i am talking about new groups of players that want to forge their corporation or alliance in nullspace)
D. Map Edge regional connections.

All "outer" gate connection between nullsec regions should become unusable for capitals.
For example :
Cobalt Edge <-> Tenal
Fountain <-> Delve
Period Basis <-> Paragon Soul
etc.
(And all similar you can see on this eve visualization )
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/universe

Why?
As all current changes are to make eve big again, and allowing capital travel on those routes makes eve small again,simple example :
After current changes :
Capital Bloob moving from Period Basis to Omist:
- 1 gate PB <-> Paragon Soul
- 1 Jump + 1 gate to make into next regional crossing
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/jump/Aeon,544/G-M4GK:C-PEWN
- 1 Gate Paragon Soul <-> Feythabolis
- 1 Cross Feythabolis in 1 jump
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/jump/Aeon,544/D4-2XN:6-ELQP
- 1 Gate Between Feythabolist and Omist

Total travel time for unstoppable capital blob : <2h
Time needed to take station system (all timers ) ~ week

Assuming that those gates will be downgraded to S size gates , the same capital bloob will have to use this route :
(just to simplify i will just list the regions)
- Period Basis
- Querious
- Khanid
- Tash-Murkon
- Catch
- Impass
- Omist

Total Travel time : %#$!#!#!
Time needed to take station system (all timers ) ~ week

Remember that we are not talking about using subcapital fleets, but capital bloobs having extreme EHP and remote repair abilities.
If someone decides to move on this route using subcapital fleet , he will be still capable of doing this.

Clones and structures.

Clones are good, even their number should be increased , and the ability to change them on fly in the same station.
The only thing that is very broken, is that they can ( and must ) be spread around.
This allows one player to still be in many places in eve universe at the same time.
Just use your JC , change your cloning here , and you can still maintain ~The Big Blue~

What changes should be applied :
- max 2-3 clone locations
- even more clones , something up to 20 per character?
- pre paid upgrade for already installed clones , so even when you die and don't upgrade yor clone , you can change to other "full sp one"
- ability to change clones on station without delay , but at the isk cost.
( so you can change clone on a station you are currently docked for let say 20mil isk , or use your JC timer)
- and adding auto ask to upgrade to to low SP clone before undocking , CCP , in EVE play quite old people , drunk roams are realy quite often

... and what about structures?
Station cloning service needs badly updates.
- you should not be able to jump clone into station that have incaped cloning service.
- ehp of this structure should also be lowered, without adding any resistance.
- after repairing cloning station should not become operational next minute but it should online itself within next 1hour.
( you live in a station, and someone killed your cloning service? , no problem , remember that you have more than 1 clone here , and even when podded , you can just jump to earlier pre paid clone)

You can ask why , but the answer is simple .
To kill ~The Big Blue~ , something that all agree is very bad for this game.
All big alliances put clone and ship caches all around the eve.
This simple fix to cloning service , and by limiting places you can have your clones CCP can make next step in the good direction.

Moon minerals

This is quite simple , add new source for obtaining those minerals , and create drop table linked to local race ships.
Not any fancy asteroid mining, or moon belts , just link it to normal mining , and create simple script that will have chance to seed some moon minerals after a complete miner cycle.
If you have miners, you will have moon minerals for new t2 ships and equipment without needing of any pos.


###############################################################################
###### Broken Stuff In Phoebe - aka how players prove CCP made few bad assumptions #######
###############################################################################
1. Motherships as logistics for Battleship fleet ( lets don't forget about fighters )
Zappity
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2014-11-03 09:33:28 UTC
Have to admit that I have often wondered why gates aren't more interesting. One-way gates, mass-limited gates, mass-accrual gates etc would add diversity and tactics. And since this will be especially relevant in a couple of days you can have a +1.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Vesan Terakol
Trollgrin Sadface
Dark Taboo
#3 - 2014-11-03 11:41:13 UTC
The idea of mass restriction of gates is interesting, but i would first wait to see what the upcoming changes to sovereignty will look like.

The way i see it, such restricted gates would provide more base for strategic decisions if located inside the constellation, rather than on its edge. You know, you can bring the heavy ship to the coast of the land you're assaulting and use it for artillery support, but you start hitting the topological hindrances once you embark on the land. Mass restricted gates, naturally cyno-inhibited systems... well, this starts sounding a bit like wormhole space, maybe less extreme.

About limited access to certain regions - maybe that is the intention? And maybe smaller entities will "sneak in" there and not be bothered by the large fish, because those regions are of no value to them? Sounds like in a fantasy novel - a castle built high into the mountains, with weaving passes and scout towers on the cliffs, so whoever holds it, always knows if someone is creeping in. Kind of cool, don't you think? There SHOULD exist such locations.

In the end, there is a lot more to be changed in regards to null sec and capital travel. This is just the beginning.

Clones: I really started using those frequently in the last month. I feel that some of your points hold some merit. I would really like to seethe ability to store multiple clones in one station and jump between them with no cooldown. Yet, i believe that this will give too much power to people with multiple clones with strong implants inside, give them too much flexibility in a short window of time.

Vesan Terakol
Trollgrin Sadface
Dark Taboo
#4 - 2014-11-03 11:41:22 UTC
Dual post, sorry.
Anthar Thebess
#5 - 2014-11-03 13:23:17 UTC
I think that now is the best moment to make those changes , as it is better to put all changes and adapt to them rather than annoy players every 4 weeks.

Even station intention to make changes in specific direction will be good , as this let all people prepare to them and make proper decisions.

Suggestions about those outskirts gate changes is based on one base concept : Make eve big again.

Currently you cannot defeat capital bloob without even bigger blob.
This leads to 0.5% TIDI fights, and ~The Big Blue~.

Changes proposed by CCP are good, but leaving map as it is currently is bad.
Period Basis -> Omist in 2jumps and few gates for capital fleet.

Base concept for Phoebe was just negated by this capital connections.
If CCP wants to lift the burden of unstoppable capital blob this MUST be changed.

Especially that you cannot counter this kind of capital blob with other capitals.
They will be usually to far away.
Look at this route:
Period basis ->Omist (like in first post)
Then travel by next 7 gates and you are in Detroid.

For subcapitals - this route is fine , but again for (super)capital fleets, you will not be able to stop those ships.
Just to much EHP, and remote repair abilities.

Around 3h needed to travel between Period Basis and Cache ?


Clones.
Powerful clones are expensive , and if you have 2 or max 3 places where you can have those clones , then they are not so OP after all.
Tappits
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#6 - 2014-11-03 13:24:45 UTC
We don’t even know how hard it’s going to be moving around in Phoebe and beyond, let’s not come up with even more nerfs to travel when we don’t know how hard it’s going to be to start with…
Also NOPE.
O hay I jumped into XXX from XXX using the gate now but I cannot get to the place I was going because the gate is a small to my destination so I need to backtrack 20 jumps to get into system on the other side using the large gate.
Anthar Thebess
#7 - 2014-11-03 13:33:21 UTC
Tappits wrote:
We don’t even know how hard it’s going to be moving around in Phoebe and beyond, let’s not come up with even more nerfs to travel when we don’t know how hard it’s going to be to start with…
Also NOPE.
O hay I jumped into XXX from XXX using the gate now but I cannot get to the place I was going because the gate is a small to my destination so I need to backtrack 20 jumps to get into system on the other side using the large gate.

Why the base concept is very simple.
All edge conections are "S" size.
So you can move any subcapital fleet , but not capitals, supers, jump freighters and freighters.

The same size is for few new connections.

In case of long regional gates that are the only connections to some regions, they stay and have L size.

For example we are talking about this kind of connections:
From
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/K-IYNW
To Geminate and Cache.
Adrie Atticus
Circle Mercs
#8 - 2014-11-03 13:44:53 UTC
Stop asking for CCP solutions to player-created and player-solvable issues.

Want to get rid of the capital blob? Kill it.
Not enough ships to kill the capital blob? Leave it be and go build some more.
Not able to build more? Then get more effective industry going.
Can't get industry going? Get more friends.
Can't get more friends? Bingo, here's the real issue you are trying to solve by asking for a CCP nerf to gates.
Anthar Thebess
#9 - 2014-11-03 13:57:19 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Stop asking for CCP solutions to player-created and player-solvable issues.

Want to get rid of the capital blob? Kill it.
Not enough ships to kill the capital blob? Leave it be and go build some more.
Not able to build more? Then get more effective industry going.
Can't get industry going? Get more friends.
Can't get more friends? Bingo, here's the real issue you are trying to solve by asking for a CCP nerf to gates.


tl;dr : N+1

Check also that the gate limitation is only for capital ships.

Currently it is very hard to counter 250 slowcats.
People where droping much more dreads on this kind of fleets , and this lead only to bugged node.

I don't have any thing about this fleet moving by gates , even jumping from time to time.
Just those edge gate gate connections allow this unstoppable force to cross 8 regions in around 3 hours, and most of this 3 hours of delay is only based on the concept that they wait for whole fatigue to be removed before beginning to move again.


Anthar Thebess
#10 - 2014-11-06 11:10:50 UTC
Now some broken stuff from my perspective.
Going to post & add to first topic.

New doctrine :

Battleship fleet supported by motherships for logistic purposes.
- both ships warp at similar speed.
- motherships cannot be jammed
- try to kill this kind of logistic ship.
- motherships jump first by the gates.
- Each mothership support subcapitals also with fighters .

Tons of extra fighter DPS, able alone to kill enemy subcapital logistic ships.
Logistics immune to ewar , and very hard to kill.