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For the Warmongers

Author
Liam Antolliere
Liberty Vanguard
#21 - 2014-11-01 20:58:23 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
[...] ... nothing you've said suggests that the entire Caldari people deserved to be punished in an exercise in collective punishment.


I agree, now if only we could get your people to agree that the same is true in reverse.

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
As for Nouvelle Rouvenor - that the Federation acted is completely understandable, but the way in which it acted cannot be described as just or reasonable. I have never met anyone who seriously considered it to be so, either Gallente or Caldari, and I believe there is now specific legislation preventing such a thing from ever happening again.

Even the most zealous I've spoken to admit that were a minority population on a client state world to be so attacked again, the Federation might move to take over the investigation, but they would never consider blockading, bombarding and invading the world - unless something seriously ugly came to light - such as a planned pogrom of all minorities.


Indeed. Such is the lessons of experience and age. A fledgling Federation responded poorly while a more wisened Federation would likely respond more reasonably to a similar situation.

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Noir - I wish someone COULD explain Malkalen to me. The closest thing to a Gallente role model that any of us had, growing up, was Noir. The man reading out that statement from the bridge of his Nyx is both hauntingly familiar and a total stranger to me. But it was precisely the wrong thing at the wrong time. Had it not happened, you'd likely have been negotiating with Gariushi all this time and not Heth. Who knows where we'd be now.


We are in the same ship here. I wish I could say what happened that day...

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
On to Home. Again, I have to reiterate that the return of Home is the price of peace. The people won't allow the State to settle short of that - return at what pace and what the eventual fate of the Gallente settlers is to be? That's negotiable - and it's already happening. Vast numbers of Gallente are now under the administration of the Caldari State and those that can adapt to the new way of life will stay and those that cannot will likely relocate. The process doesn't have to be immediate or forcible. There's still some room on the old girl and it's not like we all want to go live there (although I'd love to own a piece of property - and am considering a purchase as we speak!).


Yes, now that more reasonable minds rule in both the State and the Federation, perhaps there will be a resolution to this conflict that we can both agree on.

"Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."

Eran Mintor
Marathon Drinkers
#22 - 2014-11-01 21:52:26 UTC
I look forward to the day when these threads don't get posted anymore.

-Eran
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#23 - 2014-11-01 22:59:13 UTC
I look forward to the day when there is no reason to respond to them.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#24 - 2014-11-01 23:26:47 UTC
Liam Antolliere wrote:

At the time of the attack, the State was a non-entity. Furthermore, as I have stated before, when the bombing occurred, the Federation did not have the luxury of sitting idly and waiting for an investigation to prove whether or not the Templis Dragonaurs were behind the attack. What was known was that half a million people were now dead and what was already a tense situation had now been escalated into violence.

Yes, yes, the federation couldn't just sit idly, already BLOCKING our planet when it happened. Problem happened? Kill innocent Caldari. No Caldari - no problem. Right?

Liam Antolliere wrote:

We agree that it was an atrocity but the response from the Gallente Federation was more than understandable given the situation at hand and the information available. We can argue back and forth until the end of the cluster about whether or not the response by the Federation was appropriate, too heavy-handed, unjust, justified or otherwise.

I guess it would be MORE understandable if we start bombing YOUR home planets.
That should make you understand for sure, especially if you will be present down there yourself.

Liam Antolliere wrote:

In addition, continued action against the Federation and its people is action against the very people that deposed said extremist group.

All my what.
Continued action against the Federation and its people, is action against terrorists and war criminals.
200 hundreds of years ago you deposed them after they did their job.
What about now?
About genocide and crimes of our time?

Liam Antolliere wrote:

Regarding the "theft" of your home world, your people abandoned that world. I would urge you to consider that the people leading the Caldari at the time of the secession had already established military infrastructure and assets outside Federation space and when the secession occurred, diverted all of their assets and resources to protecting those assets while simultaneously leaving their homeworld defenseless.

Yet we never GAVE it to the Federation.
Federation captured and occupied it, because this Federation was formed around our homeworld, trapping us to signing this disgusting charter. Caldari always return for what is ours.
We left it only to return later, as we didn't have at the moment force to fight gallenteans.
Now we have, and your time to pay has come.

Liam Antolliere wrote:

The only logical course of action for the Federation at the time would have been to prevent the establishment of a stronghold on Caldari Prime and suggesting that your leaders at the time didn't understand that is to do them an extreme disservice. If your people should be angry at anyone for the abandoning of Caldari Prime, it should be at your own Megacorporations who acted in their own self interests and whose short-sighted leadership put the Federation in the position it was in to begin with.

We should blame them only for singing Federation charter in the first place.
Fighting and standing on the planet without resources for fighting would just lead to our extermination by gallentean genocidists and orbital bombings.
But, anyway, those who did this terrible mistake and signed Federal charter in the first place, are long gone. We can't blame or punish them anymore. But we can fix their mistake: the federation charter must be UNDONE.

When this "legal" document will be undone, and become nothing but historical artifact without any present power, only then the dispute over Caldari Prime can be solved and the real peace will be possible.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#25 - 2014-11-01 23:28:51 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I look forward to the day when there is no reason to respond to them.

And this will be the day the Federation will be destroyed.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Zecthah Trees'ent
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2014-11-01 23:47:03 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I look forward to the day when there is no reason to respond to them.


That would be a good day. But one that will not come soon as long as there are those who want blood over peace. Kim wants blood and says that the only way for peace is the complete destruction of the Federation while you have at least given voice to some considerations that could lead to peace between the two entities. A cease-fire at the very least. And as I stated before, at this point peace would be more beneficial to all parties involved.

Diana Kim wrote:
And this will be the day the Federation will be destroyed.


I'm curious. If you were ordered to cease hostilities against Gallentian forces from your chain of command, would you follow those orders?
Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#27 - 2014-11-02 00:46:39 UTC
Zecthah Trees'ent wrote:

I'm curious. If you were ordered to cease hostilities against Gallentian forces from your chain of command, would you follow those orders?

When you aren't agree with given order, you have right to arrest your superior officer and claim this position. After the operation, though, you both will be presented to the tribunal and one of you will be executed, depending on tribunal's decision.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Zecthah Trees'ent
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2014-11-02 02:16:22 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Zecthah Trees'ent wrote:

I'm curious. If you were ordered to cease hostilities against Gallentian forces from your chain of command, would you follow those orders?

When you aren't agree with given order, you have right to arrest your superior officer and claim this position. After the operation, though, you both will be presented to the tribunal and one of you will be executed, depending on tribunal's decision.

This only applies to unlawful or immoral orders orders correct? Or does that apply to any order you happen to disagree with? Are you saying that if you received a lawful order from your chain of command to cease hostilities against Gallente forces, in the event of a cease-fire or peace treaty, you would arrest your superior officer and continue fighting?
Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
#29 - 2014-11-02 02:57:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Gwen Ikiryo
I see people bring up the issue of the Federal population currently living on Caldari prime pretty frequently (and often passionately), and I've done it myself a few times without coming to any real conclusion. But I'm wondering: Would it really be that difficult to allow the Federals to continue their regular lifestyle, even under complete State ownership?

I mean, let's be frank, here - Caldari Prime is never going to become a typical State world, with hyperindustrialized factory cities under singular megacorporate leadership, for numerous reasons: Because of the incredible and probably irremovable amount of Gallentean cultural influence on the population and their way of life, because of the innumerable heritage sites developers would have to tip toe around, but mostly just because it's in all honesty a miserable place to actually have to work. Not to mention the fact that it's completely cut off from wider State infrastructure. At best, it'll play to it's strengths as a cultural relic and thrive off it's tourist economy, with some sort of weird compromise hybrid government in control after the dust settles from the megacorporations all demanding some say in it's rule, and the lingering republican sentiment on the planet.

So why not embrace it? Let the people living there still be Federal citizens if they began as such, with the associated privileges. In fact, why not draw up a new charter specifically for the planet, which would offer everyone - Including State citizens - The legislated rights assured by the Federation, but with some Caldari values imbued in it as well? That way, the local government would be able to enforce it's laws on Federal citizens with no cause for challenge in most cases, while still maintaining a firmly Caldari means of doing so, and extradite them in the few edge cases where there's conflict.

Let the State control healthcare and social security under it's usual system, but allow the Federal government to subsidize it's own people so they can pay for it indepdently if they are entitled to it, and allow Federal businesses to continue operating as normal on the planet (with the same regulation and tax as the rest of the State, of course) so they can continue their usual way of life. And let the Federal citizens living there elect a representative of theirs with little direct power, but who can relay their concerns and needs to both the State authorities and the Federal senate, as well as of course participating in the usual district and presidential elections.

No one is displaced either from their homes or from their government, the State is in firm ownership of the planet, and everyone profits happily.
Ragnar STS
Arcane Odyssey
Electus Matari
#30 - 2014-11-02 03:05:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Ragnar STS
I think the best course of action would be thus:

A well informed, and well funded business proposition be made to the Caldari State: Quit supporting the Amarr and realize higher profits.

Amarr slavers have subjugated 702 systems. The Minmatar hold a meager 280, but strongly fight against the Amarr. The Gallente Federation hold 388 systems and believe in actual human rights, and naturally find themselves at odds with the Amarr. The Caldari are the problem in all of this. The Caldari hold 326 systems.

The Gallente could easily crush the Caldari in a all out war, but dare not actually risk Jita as the Amarr slavers would come to hold the system for their money laundering, human trafficking, greedy scum.

Now, appealing to the greed of the Caldari, perhaps we could compare 702 vs 994. Currently Caldari Navy pets are told to engage on sight all Minmatar and Gallente militia pilots. CONCORD will not let them fire on regular civilian capsuleers...but you know deep down they want to. What if the Caldari just stopped their alliance with their current biggest customer - Amarr....and instead considered all of humanity their customer. If 'all of humanity' was considered one would get 1696 systems waiting for their products and services. Even at worst, leaving out those slavers entirely one would still realize 994 instead of 702.

We can all probably imagine the difficulty Caldari officials would have with this. It would require negotiation, trust, and settling disputes by mutual concession. These are skills already in use in other government complexes such as the Minmatar Republic and the Gallente Federation. Federations and Republics by definition do not squash dissent but instead agree to disagree and work together. It really is sad how pathetic the numbers games are with the Caldari, and they would choose to sell slaves and toxic materials instead of acting in a more normalized fashion and realizing higher profits overall.
Zecthah Trees'ent
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2014-11-02 03:30:08 UTC
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:
I see people bring up the issue of the Federal population currently living on Caldari prime pretty frequently (and often passionately), and I've done it myself a few times without coming to any real conclusion. But I'm wondering: Would it really be that difficult to allow the Federals to continue their regular lifestyle, even under complete State ownership?

I mean, let's be frank, here - Caldari Prime is never going to become a typical State world, with hyperindustrialized factory cities under singular megacorporate leadership, for numerous reasons: Because of the incredible and probably irremovable amount of Gallentean cultural influence on the population and their way of life, because of the innumerable heritage sites developers would have to tip toe around, but mostly just because it's in all honesty a miserable place to actually have to work. Not to mention the fact that it's completely cut off from wider State infrastructure. At best, it'll play to it's strengths as a cultural relic and thrive off it's tourist economy, with some sort of weird compromise hybrid government in control after the dust settles from the megacorporations all demanding some say in it's rule, and the lingering republican sentiment on the planet.

So why not embrace it? Let the people living there still be Federal citizens if they began as such, with the associated privileges. In fact, why not draw up a new charter specifically for the planet, which would offer everyone - Including State citizens - The legislated rights assured by the Federation, but with some Caldari values imbued in it as well? That way, the local government would be able to enforce it's laws on Federal citizens with no cause for challenge in most cases, while still maintaining a firmly Caldari means of doing so, and extradite them in the few edge cases where there's conflict.

Let the State control healthcare and social security under it's usual system, but allow the Federal government to subsidize it's own people so they can pay for it indepdently if they are entitled to it, and allow Federal businesses to continue operating as normal on the planet (with the same regulation and tax as the rest of the State, of course) so they can continue their usual way of life. And let the Federal citizens living there elect a representative of theirs with little direct power, but who can relay their concerns and needs to both the State authorities and the Federal senate, as well as of course participating in the usual district and presidential elections.

No one is displaced either from their homes or from their government, the State is in firm ownership of the planet, and everyone profits happily.

With the location of Caldari Prime and its importance to both the State and the Federation, it does provide a unique diplomatic solution to the entire equation. I really like your ideas on how to handle the population of the planet. Putting it under joint control like you said could be the beginning of a mutually beneficial partnership, much like political marriages. It could be a neutral location for delegations to work out differences and broker profitable business enterprises between the Caldari and the Gallente.

Ragnar, this is precisely what I was getting at when I was saying that peace between Caldari and Gallente would be for the best. That peace would open up hundreds of new markets which would increase production and demand while lowering costs to the consumer. This combined with war resources being redirected to other ventures could promote advancements in science, cultural relations, education, and stimulate economies as funds are channeled elsewhere.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#32 - 2014-11-02 04:58:47 UTC
Ragnar STS wrote:
I think the best course of action would be thus:

A well informed, and well funded business proposition be made to the Caldari State: Quit supporting the Amarr and realize higher profits.

Amarr slavers have subjugated 702 systems. The Minmatar hold a meager 280, but strongly fight against the Amarr. The Gallente Federation hold 388 systems and believe in actual human rights, and naturally find themselves at odds with the Amarr. The Caldari are the problem in all of this. The Caldari hold 326 systems.

The Gallente could easily crush the Caldari in a all out war, but dare not actually risk Jita as the Amarr slavers would come to hold the system for their money laundering, human trafficking, greedy scum.


The Gallente attempted this already and failed utterly. The fact is that mere numbers do not tell the tale - the Caldari fleet has been engineered and crafted specifically as a weapon aimed at countering precisely the scenario that you envision - a Gallente juggernaut aimed at State territory. The result is a bitter asymmetric campaign in which the Federation is bled white for every astronomical unit of space it takes and tries to hold.

Of course the flipside of this is that the Caldari Navy is totally unsuited to waging an aggressive campaign aimed at the Federation and any attempt to do so would be doomed to failure.

Ragnar STS wrote:
Now, appealing to the greed of the Caldari, perhaps we could compare 702 vs 994. Currently Caldari Navy pets are told to engage on sight all Minmatar and Gallente militia pilots. CONCORD will not let them fire on regular civilian capsuleers...but you know deep down they want to. What if the Caldari just stopped their alliance with their current biggest customer - Amarr....and instead considered all of humanity their customer. If 'all of humanity' was considered one would get 1696 systems waiting for their products and services. Even at worst, leaving out those slavers entirely one would still realize 994 instead of 702.


The alliance between the Amarr and the Caldari is a chimerical construct born of the weird alchemy caused by the relationship between your own Republic and the Federation. The Caldari are naturally isolationists and would like nothing more than to retreat within our borders, coming out only for mutually beneficial trade, research and cultural exchange. Sadly the Republic leaped into bed with the Federation, forcing us to ally with the Amarr out of self-preservation.

The fastest way to end the alliance between the Caldari and the Amarr would be to get your own leaders to repudiate their own with the Federation - thus rendering the whole thing completely needless. Go on. You guys don't even get on that well at the moment, hey?

Ragnar STS wrote:
We can all probably imagine the difficulty Caldari officials would have with this. It would require negotiation, trust, and settling disputes by mutual concession. These are skills already in use in other government complexes such as the Minmatar Republic and the Gallente Federation. Federations and Republics by definition do not squash dissent but instead agree to disagree and work together. It really is sad how pathetic the numbers games are with the Caldari, and they would choose to sell slaves and toxic materials instead of acting in a more normalized fashion and realizing higher profits overall.


This is the same Republic that is constitutionally unable to sit down and negotiate with the Amarr and trusts it's allies so much that it sent a fleet of warships to attack them? It's also amusing to see you denigrate the 'numbers game' which others call 'economics'. Winds in the mountains! You can't feed and house your own people WITH the help of the clusters greatest economic power - we've managed to do that whilst in competition with them!

You might also do some research on slavery within the State. You'd discover that the State is the only one of the four main empires that has NEVER had legal slavery. Ever. Even in pre-industrial times we didn't have the concept. We didn't even learn what the concept was until the Gallente taught us - they had it in their history. Even you Matari used to keep each other as slaves. Outside of the Concord controlled capsuleer economic market you won't find ANY slaves for legal sale in the State and transporting them through State space is quite illegal - as is Vitoxin, I believe.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#33 - 2014-11-02 05:30:50 UTC
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:
I see people bring up the issue of the Federal population currently living on Caldari prime pretty frequently (and often passionately), and I've done it myself a few times without coming to any real conclusion. But I'm wondering: Would it really be that difficult to allow the Federals to continue their regular lifestyle, even under complete State ownership?

I mean, let's be frank, here - Caldari Prime is never going to become a typical State world, with hyperindustrialized factory cities under singular megacorporate leadership, for numerous reasons: Because of the incredible and probably irremovable amount of Gallentean cultural influence on the population and their way of life, because of the innumerable heritage sites developers would have to tip toe around, but mostly just because it's in all honesty a miserable place to actually have to work. Not to mention the fact that it's completely cut off from wider State infrastructure. At best, it'll play to it's strengths as a cultural relic and thrive off it's tourist economy, with some sort of weird compromise hybrid government in control after the dust settles from the megacorporations all demanding some say in it's rule, and the lingering republican sentiment on the planet.


It's true that Caldari Prime is never going to be dominated by a single Megacorporation. Ishukone has control now - and rightly so, since they're the ones acting as rational agents within the Federation. Ishukone is the vanguard of the State in Federation territory and if the return of Home is going to be managed through peaceful negotiation, it's Ishukone that's going to do so.

But they won't be permitted to keep Home to themselves forever. It'll start with joint ventures in partnership with other Megas. Then the other Megas will build their own orbitals, or take over the existing ones. Next each Mega will carve out an enclave on the surface of Home. Finally those enclaves will likely expand to become District sized. I hope Ishukone negotiates like a Sebiestor horse trader for each piece of land - they've earned it.

Once the Megas settle into their Districts, though, they'll likely administrate them like any other State territory. Why wouldn't they? There may be, potentially, specific agreements arising out of the armistice agreements with the Gallente, related to militarisation, and access to markets most likely., but I don't see the planet being split between Gallente and Caldari rule in a large way. That would create a highly unstable situation! The three largest urban populations are already under Caldari administration - the Federation isn't showing any signs of wanting to hold onto meaningful pieces of the planet.

Gwen Ikiryo wrote:
So why not embrace it? Let the people living there still be Federal citizens if they began as such, with the associated privileges. In fact, why not draw up a new charter specifically for the planet, which would offer everyone - Including State citizens - The legislated rights assured by the Federation, but with some Caldari values imbued in it as well? That way, the local government would be able to enforce it's laws on Federal citizens with no cause for challenge in most cases, while still maintaining a firmly Caldari means of doing so, and extradite them in the few edge cases where there's conflict.

Let the State control healthcare and social security under it's usual system, but allow the Federal government to subsidize it's own people so they can pay for it indepdently if they are entitled to it, and allow Federal businesses to continue operating as normal on the planet (with the same regulation and tax as the rest of the State, of course) so they can continue their usual way of life. And let the Federal citizens living there elect a representative of theirs with little direct power, but who can relay their concerns and needs to both the State authorities and the Federal senate, as well as of course participating in the usual district and presidential elections.

No one is displaced either from their homes or from their government, the State is in firm ownership of the planet, and everyone profits happily.


I can see why you feel that might be a compromise but, if I can use a metaphor, you can't make a drink that will please tea and Quafe drinkers by mixing tea and Quafe! The problem is that the chief legislated right within the Federation is some form of universal mandate representation, whilst this is anathema within a well-ordered Caldari community.

It would set up an intrinsic conflict between Corporate Policy and Local Government. A constant push to 'special case' local regulations that would set up all sorts of inconsistencies with unforeseen consequences. The result would be a dissonance with the State proper that would be very damaging! A two-tier system? Different rights and privileges for different citizens based on which allegiance their grandparents held?

Can Federation businesses, institutions and people continue to live on Caldari Prime? Sure. Do they have to become Citizens? They don't have to be citizens anywhere else in the State - only if they want the privileges Citizenship brings. Can we stop the Federation from giving money to their citizens - or even ours? Not really.

Are we going to require Caldari governments to run Caldari districts on the Caldari Homeworld according to Federal law or some weird hybridisation of Federal and Caldari law? No. Never in a million years. It's impractical, unfair and quite frankly it would be a dangerous experiment.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Zecthah Trees'ent
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2014-11-02 06:04:27 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I can see why you feel that might be a compromise but, if I can use a metaphor, you can't make a drink that will please tea and Quafe drinkers by mixing tea and Quafe! The problem is that the chief legislated right within the Federation is some form of universal mandate representation, whilst this is anathema within a well-ordered Caldari community.

It would set up an intrinsic conflict between Corporate Policy and Local Government. A constant push to 'special case' local regulations that would set up all sorts of inconsistencies with unforeseen consequences. The result would be a dissonance with the State proper that would be very damaging! A two-tier system? Different rights and privileges for different citizens based on which allegiance their grandparents held?

Can Federation businesses, institutions and people continue to live on Caldari Prime? Sure. Do they have to become Citizens? They don't have to be citizens anywhere else in the State - only if they want the privileges Citizenship brings. Can we stop the Federation from giving money to their citizens - or even ours? Not really.

Are we going to require Caldari governments to run Caldari districts on the Caldari Homeworld according to Federal law or some weird hybridisation of Federal and Caldari law? No. Never in a million years. It's impractical, unfair and quite frankly it would be a dangerous experiment.

Ok, so incorporating a hybrid of laws and policies wouldn't work. Different laws for different 'classes' of citizens has historically not worked. So why could a governing body with new laws and policies not be created from the ground up by elected representatives from the State and the Federation? It would be a special zone separate from total control by either side and have its own laws. I think that a totally new joint administration could work and it would strengthen relations as a whole.
Elmund Egivand
Sebestacny Circle
#35 - 2014-11-02 06:15:31 UTC
Zecthah Trees'ent wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I can see why you feel that might be a compromise but, if I can use a metaphor, you can't make a drink that will please tea and Quafe drinkers by mixing tea and Quafe! The problem is that the chief legislated right within the Federation is some form of universal mandate representation, whilst this is anathema within a well-ordered Caldari community.

It would set up an intrinsic conflict between Corporate Policy and Local Government. A constant push to 'special case' local regulations that would set up all sorts of inconsistencies with unforeseen consequences. The result would be a dissonance with the State proper that would be very damaging! A two-tier system? Different rights and privileges for different citizens based on which allegiance their grandparents held?

Can Federation businesses, institutions and people continue to live on Caldari Prime? Sure. Do they have to become Citizens? They don't have to be citizens anywhere else in the State - only if they want the privileges Citizenship brings. Can we stop the Federation from giving money to their citizens - or even ours? Not really.

Are we going to require Caldari governments to run Caldari districts on the Caldari Homeworld according to Federal law or some weird hybridisation of Federal and Caldari law? No. Never in a million years. It's impractical, unfair and quite frankly it would be a dangerous experiment.

Ok, so incorporating a hybrid of laws and policies wouldn't work. Different laws for different 'classes' of citizens has historically not worked. So why could a governing body with new laws and policies not be created from the ground up by elected representatives from the State and the Federation? It would be a special zone separate from total control by either side and have its own laws. I think that a totally new joint administration could work and it would strengthen relations as a whole.


But how is this idea going to be sold to the Caldari and the Gallente? The Gallente might be interested but the Caldari, being the pragmatist that they are, will need to be convinced. How would this benefit the Caldari? What does this offer that the current Caldari corporate-meritocratic system doesn't? How do you assure that there would be minimal Federation influence in this venture? The very fact that the representatives are 'elected' is already going to raise a hundred red flags to the Caldari. If anything, they would rather just pick a representative out of a pool of whom they considered 'most qualified' for the job, based on service and performance records, than to elect one.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#36 - 2014-11-02 06:28:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Pieter Tuulinen
I think that, traditionally, Gallente and Caldari get on best when there's a properly delineated border. One side Gallente and the other Caldari. Obviously I feel strongly that the border should be around the planetary system, leaving the rest of the solar system for the Gallente.

And lots of us feel the same. We saw how close things came to true devastation and we are so happy that the Gallente senate acted in so fair and mature a manner. We're happy to let the process take as long as it needs to take. We're willing to discuss what needs to happen to relieve some of the worries on the Gallente side. We're still committed to having Home back. All of it.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Ragnar STS
Arcane Odyssey
Electus Matari
#37 - 2014-11-02 06:37:23 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
...
The alliance between the Amarr and the Caldari is a chimerical construct born of the weird alchemy caused by the relationship between your own Republic and the Federation. The Caldari are naturally isolationists and would like nothing more than to retreat within our borders, coming out only for mutually beneficial trade, research and cultural exchange. Sadly the Republic leaped into bed with the Federation, forcing us to ally with the Amarr out of self-preservation.


Next time I'm near your ship I'll make sure to jettison some sewage for you. At the rate you're spewing it, you might run out.

We all know the Amarr Empire promises you iskies and shiny gold ship blueprints. The Caldari see profit and go with it. Your lack of slavery is a trickery and a lie my history teacher told me. Caldari are almost as deep into slavery as the Amarr, it is only that the Caldari see it to be low class and undesirable. Caldari simply supplies the money laundering, trade, and delivery of slaves in a covert fashion that the other empires can't prove.
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
#38 - 2014-11-02 06:41:40 UTC
Mr. Trees'ent, let me say in the first that I haven't read most of this thread. Let me also say, however, that from the first few lines of your first post I knew perfectly well what you were on about.

Let me put it this way. You'd do well to ignore the frothing ideologues you encounter on this forum, whatever their stripe or however prolific their vitriol.

That said, Tuulinen-haan is even-handed and even-tempered, and I imagine most State loyalists would consider his views to be comparable to the dominant view in the State.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Zecthah Trees'ent
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2014-11-02 07:05:06 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
But how is this idea going to be sold to the Caldari and the Gallente? The Gallente might be interested but the Caldari, being the pragmatist that they are, will need to be convinced.

Selling the idea to both groups would be difficult. For something like this to become reality a proof of concept would need to be shown to both entities in the form of a new organization run jointly by Gallente and Caldari personnel. If that organization works and flourishes it could be used to promote the idea. If it doesn't then the only thing lost is time, which we have plenty of.

Elmund Egivand wrote:
How would this benefit the Caldari? What does this offer that the current Caldari corporate-meritocratic system doesn't?

This would benefit the Caldari in that it would be the first step towards actual peace talks which would free up resources and manpower for other endeavors. A more peaceful nature between the two entities would open up more trade and overall more Isk could be made for both the State and the Federation. It would give them their Home back, in a sense. Not giving it back fully, the Gallente ruling body would probably not go for turning over total control. But something is better than nothing and who knows what the future holds. If a strong alliance is formed and mutual trust established I don't see it as being outside of the realm of possibility.

Elmund Egivand wrote:
How do you assure that there would be minimal Federation influence in this venture?

The nature of how things would be run would ensure that either side would not have more control over the other. Both sides would have equal power and in the event that a decision cannot be reached on a matter a neutral third party that is agreed upon by the governing representatives of this special zone would step in.

Elmund Egivand wrote:
The very fact that the representatives are 'elected' is already going to raise a hundred red flags to the Caldari. If anything, they would rather just pick a representative out of a pool of whom they considered 'most qualified' for the job, based on service and performance records, than to elect one.

I really meant to use the term 'elected' loosely. However each faction wants to pick their representative is their own decision.

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
We're happy to let the process take as long as it needs to take. We're willing to discuss what needs to happen to relieve some of the worries on the Gallente side. We're still committed to having Home back. All of it.

For something like that to happen it will definitely take time and I believe that this idea could be the first step to establishing the necessary relationship between the State and the Federation for further talks about returning Caldari Prime to the Caldari.
Zecthah Trees'ent
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2014-11-02 07:12:30 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:
Mr. Trees'ent, let me say in the first that I haven't read most of this thread. Let me also say, however, that from the first few lines of your first post I knew perfectly well what you were on about.

Let me put it this way. You'd do well to ignore the frothing ideologues you encounter on this forum, whatever their stripe or however prolific their vitriol.

That said, Tuulinen-haan is even-handed and even-tempered, and I imagine most State loyalists would consider his views to be comparable to the dominant view in the State.

I did ignore them for a time, but when I finally mentioned something on my own it gave me a much better idea of where things actually were then reading responses to other peoples posts. And the evolution of the thread with all sorts of input has given me new ideas for ways that we may, perhaps, get along better than locking on and firing all batteries.