Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Well - i am not against creative ways to change how things are. If everyone is so concerned then let the covert ships equip both kinds of modules - a cyno generator OR a cyno jammer - that would create a counter for what people are so annoyed about.

It just starts looking like people work through a list in the style of: lets find something that hasnt been changed enough yet and lets make some random suggestion to change it.

If the travel time was 12 minutes for 12ly in exchange for being able to travel 12ly at a time (for a carrier), I could support that because the delay would relegate the fast tackle role to subcaps. If the fatigue system did not cut the jump distances, but required a 1 minute jump delay after each jump then we could still go in the jump fatigue direction with similar results to CCP's suggestion without severely limiting jump options for capitals and tripling the number of cynos. If caps could jump to bookmarks so that having so many cyno alts was not required, then I could support that.


The 2 hours was for the fatigue to wear off after traveling 10-12ly.

My solution only nerfs instant capital ganks through jump drives. If capitals need to use subcaps so much, esp. for pvp then why not require subcaps to fill that role by removing the instant part of the cap's jump drive travel? There is no nerf if the capital ship is just strategically repositioning.

If CCP goes forward with jump fatigue, I think that caps need: jump to bookmarks/celestial objects capability to manage the limited number of systems and increased number of jumps (which translates to number of cyno alts), and micro-jumpdrive ability from their jump drive to manage gate travel and other travel obstacles. Let's not make Eve more of an Alts Online game.

I'm going to just go with no, it doesn't.

The stagnation in null isn't because someone has had too much defense capabilities (as in too much ability to keep caps out), but because it's been too easy to defend your system by way of winning a single fight = up to a week's worth of progress is reset, and the fact that the sov system demands that everybody involved (and some who aren't) gather in a single system and slug it out, and the guy with the most usually ends up the victor.

Cynojammers don't cause this, and never will, even with the jump changes. The only thing cynojammers do is dictate where the attackers can and can't go, to a certain degree; they can still go through gates and enter cynojammed systems, which they could not do prior to Phoebe.


Nothing's stopping them from doing what they were meant to do, the only thing they can't do is cyno to every system in someone's space until the cynojammer's down, thus funnelling the attackers through someone's chosen choke point. This is a good thing, because you want the defenders to have a good defensive bonus of being dug in, what you do not want is for an attacker (or a defender, for that matter) to be able to go from one side of the universe to the other and be able to selectively attack or defend space without any major repercussions.

Cynojammers do none of these things, they merely dictate where the attacker can reliably travel quickly with caps.


Sometimes you don't even have to actually blow it up, just provide a distraction, but the initial strike is exactly that, you go in, "blow it up" (or, as is more common, you reinforce it), and you GTFO. The second time around it's usually more a case of you slug it out with their fleet and THEN you blow it up (or you're driven off and they rep it).

If you have a cynojammer in the system, then you're basically just forcing them to either do it via subcaps, or somehow travel into your space by gates with the caps, and do it. Considering the fact you don't NEED caps to reinforce a POS, or soon enough you can probably say the same thing about sov structures (I almost misspelled that as sob structures; nice freudian slip there), it's not as necessary. But it's still a matter of speed at which you do it.

I'm not sure what to say to you, since you seem to have made up your mind on removing cynojammers. With the current system, you're not necessarily forced to use caps (I mean, we grind all of the sov structures in SBs for weeks on end), but you do have the case of "suddenly 200+ carriers", and THAT is what's necessitating the use of caps sometimes (and the fact that a dread fleet will chew through it a lot quicker than a fleet of SBs). But it's not mandatory out of the box.

I'd say that the travel changes, combined with the upcoming sov system changes, will drive away the necessity of focusing squarely on either the use of, or the denial of the use of caps for a fight, but I'd say it would be a detriment to the game if you did remove the cynojammers since it would remove one tool to forcing the attacker to send their caps through a funnel if they want to use them. Or, the attacker would have to take down the jammer, either in the system itself, which'll probably be defended against other subcaps while the primary fleets guard the in-gate against a much bigger fleet, or in a nearby system which may or may not be defended against subcap attack, thus circumventing the gatecamp the defenders have set up and adding to the ways an attack can play out, and making wars more interesting.

There's probably a lot more other nuances which the cynojammers both take part in now, and will take part in with the new sov system and jump changes, so I'd say that taking away the cynojammer with the express purpose of "making it easy to take SOV from the 'rag tag group of tough guys'" would be doing the game a huge disservice and making it a much shallower game at both the strategic and tactical level.


Actually, no, not timers in and of themselves, since they're almost necessary since we're not looking at a game where you can responsibly require people to sit and guard things like they would in an actual, real war, so you have to give the defender the chance to scrounge up a defense fleet and actually defend their stuff. Otherwise you'll end up with either f.ex POSes being blown up in less than 5 minutes, leaving the defender no chance to affect the outcome in any way, shape or form, or a war between 2 alliances in their own TZ would quickly turn into a wasteland where no side had anything, and there'd be no fights to show for it, just structure grinding.

And the main reason for the stagnation isn't so much the fact that to take a system you have to grind through a load of timers, but the fact that while you have to grind through a load of timers, the defender only has to successfully defend ONCE, and he resets all progress. If we had changed the system so the defender could only reverse one stage of progress every time they won the fight, then you would still not see the huge ball of blue you see now, because the defenders wouldn't have almost full week before they HAD to be there to defend, they would have to constantly be there to defend or lose progress (and ultimately, the system). Same goes for if CCP'd either kept the old POS-style system instead of switching to the dominion sov system, because you would either lose all your POSes in a single day (well ok, 2 days), or you actually defended them and counter-attacked the POSes the other guy had setup, etc etc etc.

Moving away from timers and onto an occupancy-based sov system, however, will probably go a long, long way in incentivizing a switch over from huge fights to a system where you'll see a constant amount of small gang fights instead of just a single daily fight.

TL/DR: the timers aren't the issue with stagnation, the way the timers are used, is. But moving away from timers for sov is probably still a good move.

I can see that, I still think that for the ship's primary purpose, the range trumps the drone damage at this point, and I do appreciate the reply.

o/
Celly Smunt

The number is not taken out of any context as its a simple figure of how many of them are ingame. A simple fact in itself that puts many other things into a different perspective.

As of your POS example - there are outposts and stations as well - what you describe is from many years ago where players didnt build stations yet. And i do agree - whatever the solution it sucks for someone. Everyone just tries desperately not to be part of the group that has to suck it up most.

'Sustainable' implies we have any idea why people move away from Eve - but we dont. We also have no idea how many players might stay in line to fill those gaps that would be created by the 'non-sustainable' idea. The last years have seen more 'hardcore' mode games than ever - because people dont want easy anymore.

After putting some thought about the changes. I would suggest ADDING the following changes to the Rorqual:

1. INCREASE Maximum Jump Range to 20 Light Years!

Allow small corporations the ability to jump DEEP into nullsec to a hardly used system to setup a pos so they can hopefully mine in peace. There are plenty of systems far out on the rim that are hardly used, and being able to jump a Rorq to a far away system for a multi-day mining op would be a lot more fun.

Being able to execute ONE massive jump past heavily camped low sec system stations will be even more critical since you're going to open Pandora's Box and allow TITANS to fire their Doomsday's in Low Sec (which I think should NOT be allowed!). To make #1 more attractive, look at #2 below.

2. Give the Rorqual a specialized Bonus of a 10% Per Level Reduction in the Jump Clone Cooldown Timer based on the level of the Cloning Facility Operation skill.

This would greatly help in people volunteering for some null sec mining knowing that their Clone Jump Timer could be cut down to half with a max skilled Pilot that has Cloning Facility Operation Level 5. So they could jump out into the frontier for a day (or more) of mining, which would likely get more players to "X" up.

3. INCREASE the Ship Maintenance Bay size 100%.

You already nerfed the Rorqual so it can't carry combat ships a long time ago (unlike it's smaller cousin the Orca, which can carry combat ships... grrr....). So double the ship bay size so you can carry barges, exhumers, and Industrials for different types of mining without having to refit the whole ship.

At the very least it would allow a max skilled Rorqual Pilot with a Clone Bay to have enough room for all clone jumpers that arrive at the ship to have more than one ship apiece. Example would be a well tanked Skiff for protection and a Hulk for max yield. That way they could quickly swap from one ship to another as the environment changes.

4. REMOVE the Drone Damage Bonus and replace it with a bonus to all Repair Drones Repair Amount (hull, armor and shield logistic drones). This could require the Logistics skill if CCP deems that it needs to be a harder to attain this bonus.

There is a greater need for 'repairs in the field' when you're running mining operations on the frontier. Give the Rorqual a MUCH LARGER Drone Bay (1.000 - 1,500m3), Give it a Bonus to Logistic Drones Repair Amount, and also give it a possible bonus to usage of Electronic Warfare Drones if you're feeling generous. The larger bay (with no increase in bandwidth) will allow multiple spares of both combat, logistic, and EW drones of all sizes to help mining ships if needed. With the combat drones doing standard damage, it keeps it's power projection in check, while putting a useful drone repair bonus into use to help fix damaged ships.

*Additional Thought*

CCP, when you finalize the capital ship jump ranges, please make sure that there are at least a few npc stations between regions that will fall within the new overlapping routes. That way one will at least have a couple of ports for safer harbor if they have to move round with a low number of scouts.

Nope. That would imply I had any assets which could be burned to the ground in the first place; I do not.

And as for the whole "gamers want harder games", doesn't that fly in the face of "remove timers"? I mean, sure, it'll be impossible to reliably make things like supercaps, or even do any POS-based industry (or anything via POSes, for that matter), but what about the fleets who'll run around blowing everything up? They won't exactly be having a hard time if they're roaming around in someone's weakest TZ, since there'll be no resistence whatsoever.

And trust me, people would be looking for people who aren't in their TZ, because contrary to your belief people do not want games to be hard, which is why entities like PL etc have fought so hard to keep the toys they've accrued unchanged.

I know.. I know.. Just have to rant every now and then.

Blah.